Nasu-verse Discussion(spoilers to everything Nasu-verse related)

[madvanced]

Ciel's example was just to show that even when something should recover from that ability, it doesn't... I also don't know how the person would cast the spell after they're already dead, but still.

 

In Ciel's case, a gross simplification would be that she kinda is Roa except she's not, so she can't be dead without Roa being dead too since the world would get a blue screen of death.

Yeah that does jog my memory. Also what I meant is for example, let's say that you cast a time reversal magic however it takes some milliseconds or whatever after it's been cast to actually to stuff, in that tiny period of time that person's point is struck, you could say that the person would be dead no matter what.

 

However if someone else entirely got his/her point struck and the magus casts said time-reversal magic, would the other person still be dead? If so it wouldn't be real time-reversal in a way. That's why I said that this can only be verified with such a situation actually happening.

 

off-topic: 1k posts hype

[Kaguya]

Yeah that does jog my memory. Also what I meant is for example, let's say that you cast a time reversal magic however it takes some milliseconds or whatever after it's been cast to actually to stuff, in that tiny period of time that person's point is struck, you could say that the person would be dead no matter what.

 

However if someone else entirely got his/her point struck and the magus casts said time-reversal magic, would the other person still be dead? If so it wouldn't be real time-reversal in a way. That's why I said that this can only be verified with such a situation actually happening.

I'm pretty sure all ongoing actions, spells or whatever cease when a person's point is struck. (even if they were to be cast in a millisecond) For example, piercing the point of a dog that was charging at Shiki in full speed made the dog completely stop in the air, even though it should have continued after it's death. There are other examples like that.

[madvanced]

I'm pretty sure all ongoing actions, spells or whatever cease when a person's point is struck. (even if they were to be cast in a millisecond) For example, piercing the point of a dog that was charging at Shiki in full speed made the dog completely stop in the air, even though it should have continued after it's death. There are other examples like that.

Well but motion and time are 2 very different things, I don't really believe the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception to be really omnipotent in such a way. Because if it was so, it would disrupt the balance of the world in any case of time-reversal or any other kind of magic that would do such a similar effect. Because the death of whatever individual wouldn't be possible to occur because it was something from the future.

 

But as I said before there are no proofs to either claims, so all I've said are conjectures and nothing else.

[Kaguya]

Well but motion and time are 2 very different things, I don't really believe the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception to be really omnipotent in such a way. Because if it was so, it would disrupt the balance of the world in any case of time-reversal or any other kind of magic that would do such a similar effect. Because the death of whatever individual wouldn't be possible to occur because it was something from the future.

 

But as I said before there are no proofs to either claims, so all I've said are conjectures and nothing else.

I think it depends on whose eyes we're talking about here. I'd bet that Roa's wouldn't be enough to deal with time reversal. Not too sure about Shiki's... I think that Ryougi's could do it just fine, though. It's almost like true magic by itself, since she got those by touching the root. 

 

I don't think you need to say something is conjecture in this type of discussion

[Clephas]

Because Ciel was Roa (technically, her soul still is Roa's) for a time and her body did not manage to fully die before he was reincarnated, as long as he is alive, she can't be killed.  The world sees her being dead while he is alive as a paradox and thus automatically resolves it by returning her to her previous state.

[Kosakyun]

I think it depends on whose eyes we're talking about here. I'd bet that Roa's wouldn't be enough to deal with time reversal. Not too sure about Shiki's... I think that Ryougi's could do it just fine, though. It's almost like true magic by itself, since she got those by touching the root. 

 

I don't think you need to say something is conjecture in this type of discussion

 

Woah woah woah wait.

 

Roa also has Mystic Eyes? I don't remember anything like that.

Does this mean I need to read Tsukihime again? Goddamnit.

 

Also, been playing FSN since last night. I've finished the game from Day 13 of Fate, and am now in Day 10 of UBW. Regardless to say, I'm tired right now.

Only thing I'm wondering about right now is Kanshou and Byakuya. To be considered as Rank C- weapons but be able to deflect Rank A magic... It seems all too convenient. Of course, this is assuming that these weapons are not naturally able to deflect high level magic. In this case, wouldn't that mean that weapons/Noble Phantasms have the capacity to deflect a high-level attack even though they are several ranks lower than an attack (magic, for example)?

It would be embarrassing for an A rank attack to lose to a C- one after all.

[Clephas]

SHIKI-Roa possesses a form of the eyes that sees only the lines, not the points and not on non-living objects.

[Kosakyun]

SHIKI-Roa possesses a form of the eyes that sees only the lines, not the points and not on non-living objects.

 

So basically a weaker version of Shiki's?

Also, I remember Shiki's eyes originally seeing only lines.

But as the story progresses, he gained the ability to see the 'points' too.

Does that mean that his ability improved? Or was his condition actually worsening?

Or was it both? I remember the ability being a double-edged one, after all.

Or was it double-edged since he'd go crazy with seeing all the death around him?

[Clephas]

SHIKI only possesses the degraded version of the eyes because of his connection with Shiki, who has a true form of the 'basic' eyes.  The 'basic' eyes are specialized in seeing the lines and points on physical objects, because that is what Tohno Shiki can conceive of having a death naturally.  With a great deal of effort, he manages in one of Ciel's endings to see Arcueid's link to the Earth and cut that... but that was the exception rather than the rule. 

 

Ryougi Shiki, because of her 'void' origin, can see the lines and points on everything, potentially.  This includes shapeless concepts like time, immortality, and supernatural abilities and beings.  Her body's original 'self' is capable of undoing the universe itself, potentially, though that personality has no motivation to do anything, because it is the void. 

 

Edit:  When I was reading into Nasu's worldview, I got the impression that the Japanese originated powers and sorcery were kind of Gallpagosized (meaning they had evolved to meet very specific needs, such as the need to hunt demons, etc.).  This is frequently used as an explanation for the weirdness of the demon hunter families like the Ryougi.

[Kosakyun]

SHIKI only possesses the degraded version of the eyes because of his connection with Shiki, who has a true form of the 'basic' eyes.  The 'basic' eyes are specialized in seeing the lines and points on physical objects, because that is what Tohno Shiki can conceive of having a death naturally.  With a great deal of effort, he manages in one of Ciel's endings to see Arcueid's link to the Earth and cut that... but that was the exception rather than the rule. 

 

So SHIKI did not originally have the power of Shiki's eyes, but because of their link with one another, gains a degraded version of those eyes? And based on your explanation, I guess Shiki can also visualize the 'death' of an inanimate object? I'm quite confused then, seeing that inanimate objects can't actually die, since they didn't have life to start with. It is also possible that the 'death' of these inanimate objects would be their destruction, which Shiki can visualize very clearly.

Wait... Does this mean that the 'points' are also existent in inanimate objects?

 

Shiki has a very active imagination. Jk.

 

I don't even remember that he was able to cut Arcueid's link to the Earth. I really need to read again.

[Clephas]

It helps that I read it three times in a very short period of time after I first started VNs... and I remember the most important details (I always remember the violent ones).  Basically, it is a redefinition of the concept of death.  In the case of those eyes, 'death' means an 'ending', the 'breakdown of existence', or the 'severing of cause and effect'.   Say if Tohno were to stab the point of a building... that building would collapse more completely than if someone demolished it with explosives, all in an instant (this touches on the first two concepts.  If Tohno stabs a person in their point, it is made as if that person was 'always dead' in that moment.  It ignores causes and creates the effect, regardless of whether that effect should be possible from a purely logical perspective.  In that way, it is very similar to Lancer's Gaebolg, though it is actually more useful, since it isn't as limited.

 

I've always thought the reason why Tohno was capable of doing that in Ciel's path was because Arcueid had gone through all that trouble to 'strengthen' him with bits of Chaos's body in the early part of the path.  By strengthening him as a living being, she most likely (this is a guess) made it possible for him to access a higher level of perception than he was previously capable of (not to mention his connection to Roa probably also had a similar enhancing effect).  Understand, this paragraph is speculation.

[Kosakyun]

I see what you mean.

So his power isn't necessarily something that kills and destroys, but rather a power that alters facts and reality by making something that 'wasn't true' always true instead, right? Sort of like altering records, he utilizes this concept of 'the end' of an object or living being, and alters reality accordingly by going through the lines and points of death? That makes sense then.

This means that if he were told the concept of how Servants could come into the world again, he would be able to visualize a possible end for them, making it also possible for him to defeat them, right?

 

I really don't remember bits from Tsukihime. I'll play it again someday, when I'm done with other novels I want to finish.

[Clephas]

It is more that Servants are similar to True Ancestors in that they are both beings summoned and created by the Earth normally.  If you ask whether it is possible for Tohno to kill a Servant, the answer is probably a qualified yes, given that his body is the strengthened one from Ciel's path.  If you ask whether he could win a fight with one, the answer is an unequivocal no...   He simply lacks the experiences, the physical strength/stamina/capabilities, and overall power necessary to survive such a fight. 

 

Edit: As I said in a previous post, the Holy Grail takes the place of the connection to the Earth itself in the War.  It summons them and gives the Masters the power to bind them and hold them as familiars for the duration in the form of the Command Spells.  Without the connection to the Holy Grail, a Command Spell ceases to exist and a Servant cannot remain manifest indefinitely.  The existence of the larger Holy Grail, in all the paths other than Heavens Feel, makes it possible in practice for a Servant to remain between wars (Gilgamesh) given a strong enough connection (the taint from the events at the end of Fate/Zero).  That connection disappears... and so does the Servant.

[Kosakyun]

I see.

 

What did you mean by the Holy Grail taking the place of the connection to the Earth itself?

Did you mean that it takes over the connection between the heroic spirit and the Earth, making it possible for these heroic spirits to be called upon by the Holy Grail?

Or did you mean that the idea of the True Ancestors' connection to the Earth was somewhat similar to that of the connection of the Servants to the Greater Grail?

Also, it made me wonder.

Gilgamesh was able to survive after the Holy Grail War due to the existence of the Greater Grail for some reason, mainly the corruption that he had swallowed. This may not have been enough, which made him resort to devouring the life energy of the orphans as well. If the Greater Grail was necessary to keep Gilgamesh alive, then what keeps Rider in the world after the events of Heaven's Feel? I'm thinking that it's because of Sakura supplying her continually with magical energy. This could also be because she's an incomplete Grail. But wasn't the Greater Grail destroyed in Heaven's Feel?

Or perhaps... it wasn't. Was it only closed? I can't remember. But I will. Soon. Right after I finish UBW.

[Clephas]

Ok, first you have to understand that the shards of Iri's grail were retrieved and implanted in Sakura, making her a second Grail, through the bugs.  These have completely merged with Sakura, so even after the larger Grail is destroyed in Heavens Feel, that part remains, and Sakura serves as both a replacement for the Earth and as a Master, thus allowing Rider to remain.  Similarly, it would be possible for Ilya (if she survived any of the paths) to retain a Servant permanently, if she was able to supply sufficient mana. 

 

The contents of the smaller grail, as described in Heavens Feel, are basically the pure non-mana power that makes up the Servants that were 'killed' (since Servants aren't really alive, this doesn't really count, though).  In this case, they are tainted by Avenger (reference to both the end of Heavens Feel and FHA), causing the corruption of the Grail's secondary function as a granter of wishes (the primary function being a method of reaching the origin of all things).  Gilgamesh, when he was swallowed by and swallowed the tainted power that emerged from the Grail Fate/Zero, basically had his existence so firmly linked to the main Grail (which is also tainted) by exposure to that tainted power that he could remain, as long as he had sufficient mana to keep him there. 

 

Edit: Servants are normally tools of the Earth, who sacrificed their 'after-existence' in exchange for some power or boon granted to them that resulted in them becoming 'heroes'.  Archer pretty much sums it up when he describes how he is basically summoned to 'put out fires', usually when some sorcerer has fucked things up beyond belief.

 

Edit2: Arturia's possession of a true physical body is because the Earth has not yet fulfilled what she asked in return for her serving after her death.

[Kosakyun]

I do know that Irisviel's Grail was merged with Sakura, making her an incomplete Grail.

It seems that you're saying that this new Grail, created through the fusion of Sakura with the pieces of the previous Grail, serves as the 'Earth', which allows Rider to stay even after the events of Heaven's Feel. The problem is, wasn't Rider's existence anchored to the fifth Holy Grail? If that was so, then she should have disappeared along with the other servants when the Grail was destroyed. However, that was not the case. I can only assume now that through forging a contract with Sakura, Rider was able to anchor herself to this incomplete Grail too. Besides their contract and the magical energy that Sakura is providing Rider, she is now bound to the previous Grail as well, making her able to stay. I'm sure it has something to do with Sakura's interference with the receiving of the Servants' who were killed. 

This is in assumption that the Grail in question does matter, rather than simply one Grail existing.

 

Also, I'm not entirely sure now about what happened in the True End of Heaven's Feel. I don't remember Illya stating that she'll destroy the Grail. Rather, I remember her saying that she'll close it instead, since she has the ability to do that.

 

Haaaaaah. Wait for me, Heaven's Feel. I'll read you again.

[Clephas]

I was under the impression that closing it and destroying it meant the same thing, as closing it basically makes it impossible for another Holy Grail War to occur there.  Also, Sakura is a sorcerer... or did you forget?  Changing the anchor of a Servant to a similar anchor (think law of sympathy) wouldn't be hard for her or Rin to do, and I couldn't see Sakura letting go of a friend as close as Rider was after she regained (gained?) her sanity.  The Japanese version is deliberately vague on this point (I say deliberately because Nasu has an understandable tendency to hint in the text of his games rather than come out and infodump so he can go back later and say the opposite if he happens to get drunk and feels like contradicting himself - incidentally why I don't trust the non-source material apocrypha he started adding on later). 

 

Edit: By 'closing' it, it loses its function as a potential 'gate' to the origin, as well as closing the way to the Throne, thus losing the supplementary function of allowing the summoning of Servants.

 

Edit: Also, by killing Gilgamesh, a Servant incomparably more powerful than the ones Ilya contained, Sakura gained 'priority' over Ilya, thus becoming the primary smaller grail. 

[Kosakyun]

I was thinking that closing it meant that she was literally closing the Grail's opening. Y'know, closing it to prevent the overflowing corruption from the Grail. Preventing the birth of Avenger into the world. Sort of closing the only path that connected whatever's inside of the Grail to the outside world, making the birth of Avenger impossible. Something like that.

I was also under the impression that destroying the Grail was something like what Shirou did in the Normal End; destroying the Grail with a Noble Phantasm.

Isn't a sorcerer someone who could perform sorcery? I think the right term for her would be magus. Since, well, aren't there only five sorcerers?

Or is sorcerer not equal to magician?

But I do see that her sorcery trait is "Imaginary Numbers". I'm just going to pull this out of my ass and say that since the Imaginary Numbers trait is quite compatible with the Makiri clan's ability to restrain spirits due to its effectiveness against spirits, Sakura was able to 'restrain' Rider to a new base where her existence will anchor, which I'm assuming is Sakura, or the incomplete Grail. That way, her existence will not disappear.

I don't see how Rin can do it too, but this is due to me not knowing whether changing the anchors of a Servant is something that their families might fundamentally know or not.

You might be growing tired with responding to my speculation and questions, so I'm quite sorry. ;~;

 

Anyway, what did you mean by saying 'non-source material apocrypha'?

[Clephas]

I more got the impression that Justinia?(can't remember if this is the right name)/Ilya had given up on using that Grail because it was irretrievably tainted by Avenger...  It can't be used, so she tossed the tool aside. 

[Kosakyun]

Justinia?

Wasn't it Justeaze? 

 

Anyway, what's this?

http://www.fate-go.jp/

[Clephas]

gueeeh... Can't Nasu ever just let things go?

[Kosakyun]

I guess Fate never ends.

Clephas, did you play Fate/Extra?

[Clephas]

Yeah... about the only thing Iiked was that Caster was Tamamo no Mae.

[Kosakyun]

Eh?

So the whole apocalyptic-like setting of Fate/Extra didn't interest you?

My, my.

[Clephas]

Idea was good, execution was incompetent.