Japanese levels in nukiges/eroge

[Nosebleed]

This isn't meant to become a discussion but i have 2 questions i'd like to ask to someone who's more understanding of the language.

 

I've just started trying to learn kanji by myself by reading RTK and using the method posted by Tay.

I always see tons of nukiges/eroge that would interest me (in more ways than one) but of course 99% of them are not translated and i understand the reason why.

They have become sort of my motivation to learn the kanji as well aside from the normal VNs of course because let's face it i need a personal reward to keep me going. The most recent one that really made me want to get it over with was this one. You get the idea here.

 

My question here is how skilled do you have to be in understanding kanji in order to enjoy the average nukige/eroge?

I'm assuming the difficulty level would be lower because let's face it it's a nukige not an extensive and profound narrative. Of course i may be wrong and if so feel free to tell me.

The point is i want to try some as soon as possible and want to know how soon that could be on average. Assume i have plenty of free time as well.

 

And the 2nd question is would you have any suggestions in order to make the learning of the kanji more efficient and directed torwards reading VNs. Because my goal is not really to go live in japan and speak japanese fluently, i just want to enjoy untranslated VNs.

 

Thank you to anyone who can give their opinion on this.

 

TL;DR: Nosebleed's lust for lolis demands he learns japanese quickly. How difficult would the japanese be? Tips to learn it?

[Flutterz]

I don't have much experience, but I can tell you that reading Da Capo 3 with ITH+TA is pretty easy, while reading Kud Wafter with the same setup is difficult with my level of comprehension.

 

As for the Kanji thing, the way I see it regardless of what you want to do you want basic literacy, so learn the 2200 joyo Kanji. What I did afterwards was start reading Da Capo 3, and as soon as I encounter a word or phrase I don't recognize, I just add it to a separate anki deck.

[garejei]

You still need to be fairly skilled. Based on my experiences, it's still going to have narration and kanji that's primarily aimed at adults linguistically (or not necessarily adults, but people fluent in the language, like your average Japanese high schooler). I could post examples, but I dunno if you know enough Japanese to determine the difficulty of a sentence based on that. But if you want me to post samples, let me know. (Edit: Actually, nevermind. Sorry. It seems like I don't have anything installed at the moment. For screenshots you could just go to vndb.)

 

As for the second question... well that depends on the individual. I got better at reading untranslated VNs by, well, reading untranslated VNs. The more you read, the more kanji you'll be exposed to, and the better you'll become eventually. Attempt this only after you got your grammar down, though.

[Nosebleed]

As for the Kanji thing, the way I see it regardless of what you want to do you want basic literacy, so learn the 2200 joyo Kanji. What I did afterwards was start reading Da Capo 3, and as soon as I encounter a word or phrase I don't recognize, I just add it to a separate anki deck.

What method did you use to learn those 2200 kanji?  Was it with RTK?

 

You still need to be fairly skilled. Based on my experiences, it's still going to have narration and kanji that's primarily aimed at adults linguistically (or not necessarily adults, but people fluent in the language, like your average Japanese high schooler). I could post examples, but I dunno if you know enough Japanese to determine the difficulty of a sentence based on that. But if you want me to post samples, let me know.

 

As for the second question... well that depends on the individual. I got better at reading untranslated VNs by, well, reading untranslated VNs. The more you read, the more kanji you'll be exposed to, and the better you'll become eventually. Attempt this only after you got your grammar down, though.

Like i said i just started and want to make my learning more efficient and directed torwards my personal goals that's why i'm asking more knowledgable people before i get too into it when i might not need certain portions.

 

I know i'll need to get to the grammar after knowing a certain amount of kanji. My main question is how much kanji would i need. Would i need to complete all RTK volumes and then get down to the grammar or can i cut down on the kanji at a certain stage and then get to the grammar.

[Aggressor]

Play a loli nukige - lolis speak in kana only and use simplest possible wordings

 

Well, you can enjoy a nukige/moege without knowing a single kanji, that is a fact. When I was reading Hoshikaka, I knew neither kanji not kana.

And even now I don't try to learn kanji, I just read and enjoy. Build-in edict in chiitrans makes it an easy task, and after a while you'll have them memorized anyway.

[Flutterz]

What method did you use to learn those 2200 kanji?  Was it with RTK?

 

Like i said i just started and want to make my learning more efficient and directed torwards my personal goals that's why i'm asking more knowledgable people before i get too into it when i might not need certain portions.

 

I know i'll need to get to the grammar after knowing a certain amount of kanji. My main question is how much kanji would i need. Would i need to complete all RTK volumes and then get down to the grammar or can i cut down on the kanji at a certain stage and then get to the grammar.

You don't need all the RTK volumes - the first one covers the joyo Kanji, the rest are for if you want to seriously learn Japanese.

And yes, that's how I learned the Kanji, although I started slacking a bit near the end.

[garejei]

What method did you use to learn those 2200 kanji?  Was it with RTK?

 

Like i said i just started and want to make my learning more efficient and directed torwards my personal goals that's why i'm asking more knowledgable people before i get too into it when i might not need certain portions.

 

I know i'll need to get to the grammar after knowing a certain amount of kanji. My main question is how much kanji would i need. Would i need to complete all RTK volumes and then get down to the grammar or can i cut down on the kanji at a certain stage and then get to the grammar.

 

Apologies, it's just that sometimes people can be vague with phrases like "just started", since it could mean, like 3-4 months as well.

 

Nah, you won't need all of RTK. Try a couple hundred of the basic ones (I started with the Genki books), then fill in the gaps with ITH.

[Nosebleed]

Thanks Flutterz and garejei that actually helps a lot knowing i only need one volume and not every single kanji in there.

I think i'll stick with RTK and complete the first volume and then get down with the grammar.

 

After that I guess i'll try ITH or other software to help with kanji i don't know during VNs and other small details.

How long do you guys think this process might take assuming i have a lot of free time.

 

Play a loli nukige - lolis speak in kana only and use simplest possible wordings

 

Well, you can enjoy a nukige/moege without knowing a single kanji, that is a fact. When I was reading Hoshikaka, I knew neither kanji not kana.

And even now I don't try to learn kanji, I just read and enjoy. Build-in edict in chiitrans makes it an easy task, and after a while you'll have them memorized anyway.

I do want to learn the kanji because i want to get to a point where i don't need any software or anything to help me read  i just wanted to see if i could cut down on some parts because learning the entire thing is a load of work and i only want the necessary bits. 

[garejei]

 

How long do you guys think this process might take assuming i have a lot of free time.

 

One of the hardest things to predict. You could potentially be playing VNs with ITH support in a year or less, but each learner is different.

[Flutterz]

The more free time the better. I don't have enough time to regularly read DC lately, but I make sure to do the anki for my vocabulary and Kanji every day, so I'm making a little bit of progress. If I could read for an hour or two every day I would probably have improved much more quickly. As for exactly how long - some people say about half a year, which is about how long I've been at it.

[Nosebleed]

Fair enough. 

Like the introduction says if you make it a full time job you can get to it in less than half a year and i have plenty of free hours everyday.

I'm going to make a year my goal though because i don't want to rush it either. I'll adjust it later though if i see fit depending on my own pace.

 

Thanks guys for all the input. Time to study for the lolis!

[Flutterz]

study for the lolis!

[Alucard]

Well how far along is your Japanese jlpt 4 or 3?

[sanahtlig]

I do fine with 300 kanji or so and basic vocabulary.  Like others here, I use ITH with JParser for vocabulary I don't know, and ATLAS for complex grammar.  It's enough to handle even more advanced writing like that in the Ikusa Megami series.  Loli nukige should be no problem.

[Bolverk]

I pretty much agree with Sanahtlig. JParser is pretty much a cheatcode to read vn's. The only thing it can't do anything for is grammar and slang. If you become good at it you can pretty much just read the furiganas and "ignore" the kanji's.

That being said, you become dependent on JParser and can only read with it. You will likely very slowly memorize kanji's and compounds after a while. Recently I saw a compound and I didn't remember any of the kani's in it. But I knew the pronunciation and the meaning. I was like: "What Sorcery is this!!?"

 

About Atlas, I agree it's great for better understanding at times. But imo it's just not reliable. It sometimes translates the text into something completely understandble and nice. But the translation is plain wrong because it messed up one word or something. It was more confusing that helping for me, so I stopped using after a while.

 

 

What I'd reccommend is if you want to quickly start reading vn's is: Use RTK to learn about ~500 kanji's. This is for getting used to seeing the differences in the kanji's and knowing a few kanji's. Most importantly is learning how to use memonics and be somewhat good with it. You don't need to make stories for each new word you see in jap when reading, but it's very practical to be able to connect the word to other things. That way it's much easier to remember them.

 

After that you should understand some basic grammar. A fast read of Tae kim's guide and most 'effective' would prbly be: Introduction, The Writing System, Basic Grammar, Essential Grammar sections. You should quickly look over what the other sections are also. (To know what they are about)

There is a anki card deck for Tae kim's grammar guide. You should prbly do the cards that fit your sections.

 

After that you should be pretty much ready to read nukiges and easy vn's with TA and ITH.

That being said. I'd actually reccommend you to download the nukige you want to play and set up TA and ITH. Then try it out right now. Why? Because it would be practical for you to know what your current level is and what you need to learn.

[Nosebleed]

Thanks Bolverk. Again this kind of stuff helps a lot so i can adjust my learning. 

You've been telling me i don't even need 1000 kanji so i'll cut it in half and go with 500 before getting into grammar. I still WILL finish RTK with time but i'll begin reading VNs before that with other software to help.

 

Though at one point i DO want to become independent from ITH or any other software because i personally find annoying having VNs on windowed mode with a bunch of other stuff next side to look at but as a learning method i'm okay with it.

All this stuff got me really motivated to start learning.

I'll download the VN right now and after a couple months i'll get on it.

[Down]

 

You've been telling me i don't even need 1000 kanji so i'll cut it in half and go with 500 before getting into grammar. I still WILL finish RTK with time but i'll begin reading VNs before that with other software to help.

 

I think the grammar is something you want to let sink in. You can read Tae Kim in a few days and not be able to understand anything. It's not really difficult grammar, but to really integrate the various forms, it's helpful to have read about them once, encountered them in VN/anime/whatev, then read about it a second time, etc...

All of this to say, you should probably do both kanji and grammar in parallel, since you're more likely to get an intuitive comprehension of grammar (= faster comprehension = better comprehension) if you dilute it over time.

 

That being said, I'm pretty sure there are types of learners for whom bruteforcing the thing is the most efficient way.

[Pabloc]

My approach was kinda similar to what Bolverk recommended.

 

However, I would highly recommend skipping the kanji part entirely. Deal with kana and grammar first - they are absolutely essential, and Tea Kim's guide is enough to familiarize yourself with how kanji work and other necessary basics. That's a relatively easy part and shouldn't take too long to memorize. But, to truly learn grammar, you will need some exposure. And that's when you start reading VNs, with the help of ITH+TA+MeCab/JParser. Yes, with little to no kanji knowledge. Reading first 2-3 short nukiges like that will be very slow, but it will really help you put your grammatical knowledge in order. After that, your reading speed should increase ~5x. And this is a good point to start thinking about kanji.

 

If you start learning kanji from RTK or something, it probably won't help you too much with understanding VNs, especially nukiges. They are using rather specific vocabulary that is rarely featured in any textbooks - even after memorizing 1000 kanji, you would probably bump into multiple utterly undecipherable sentences during the very first H-scene (kinda discouraging).

Studying while reading is a better idea. Since your main goal isn't learning Japanese, but reading VNs, focusing on vocab you encounter on the go will be much more effective. Knowing 200 VN-specific kanji is far more useful than memorizing 1000 from a textbook (still, basics are important, so memorizing ~500 from RTK definitely won't hurt).

 

In short: learning kanji while reading VNs, and seeing how you are getting less and less dependent on MeCab/JParser is damn satisfying. Sitting and cramming random kanji is kinda boring. This looks like a rather easy choice to me.

Everything highly depends on your personal studying style though, so try out different methods and choose the one that suits you the best.

 

Also, it was mentioned already, but avoid machine translators. They are only confusing and useless.

[Nosebleed]

Your approach definitely sounds less boring and much more interesting.

I've seen this Tae Kim's guide mentioned twice. Does anyone have a download link to said guide?

I'd like to take a look at it.

[Pabloc]

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar

[Bolverk]

I pretty much 100% agree with Pabloc. Other than that Atlas might be useful on your first VN as crutch.

 

To understand how the japanese flows and works you need real exposure to it. Reading loads of grammar guides you will learn concepts, but not really anything connected to them. It makes you almost have to "relearn" everything again.

 

The real problem here really is, what is you resilience level. How much hardship are you able to handle before you give up. When you are reading raw sometimes I reading it insanely slow, other times you don't understand anything at all, other times it's just boring. It's hard but also very rewarding and in the end it's mind ****ing awesome.

 

It's easier to start if you have a somewhat good grasp of grammar, know some kanji's (Mostly know how the kanji's look different). If you give up, you need to change strategy. Go at it from a different angle, find what works for you. Learning isn't static as we are taught at school. They have it completely backwards imo. I don't want to learn japanese to be able to read it! I read japanese becaue I want to learn it!

 

 

Same as Pabloc I'd rather read jp vn's for 4 hours each day, compared to using anki for 1 hour each day.

Which is exatcly what I am doing MUAHAHAHAH.

[Nosebleed]

I downloaded the android app they had for that grammar book and will take a look at it tomorrow (it's midnight now, studying sleepy is not a good course of action imo)

 

I think i'll try what Down mentioned which is trying to have some parallel work between learning kanji and learning the grammar.

 

Pabloc mentioned it's best to know specific kanji and stuff. I get the idea but for a noobie like me i have no clue how should i learn these specific kanji. My guess is write them down and make separate decks on anki or something for them and their meaning.

[Mephisto]

It depends what nukige you are playing, but the majority of them won't require a lot of Kanji usage to be honest. I feel that you will need to worry more about your basic japanese vocabulary so you can understand the weird way the majority of characters in nukige talk. Most games don't use a large range of kanji, so as long as you have the most common kanjis down and can pick up the few more difficult ones they throw at you depending on the game, you'll be fine. (I'd say if you can read 70%~ of the kanji in a game you'll feel plenty confident reading it, especially if you are text-hooking).

[Kuky_nekoi]

Nukiges aren't meant for reading...

You fap to them. And that's all.

BTW, i'm also trying RTK... but still. ^
 

 

This isn't meant to become a discussion but i have 2 questions i'd like to ask to someone who's more understanding of the language.

 

I've just started trying to learn kanji by myself by reading RTK and using the method posted by Tay.

I always see tons of nukiges/eroge that would interest me (in more ways than one) but of course 99% of them are not translated and i understand the reason why.

They have become sort of my motivation to learn the kanji as well aside from the normal VNs of course because let's face it i need a personal reward to keep me going. The most recent one that really made me want to get it over with was this one. You get the idea here.

 

My question here is how skilled do you have to be in understanding kanji in order to enjoy the average nukige/eroge?

I'm assuming the difficulty level would be lower because let's face it it's a nukige not an extensive and profound narrative. Of course i may be wrong and if so feel free to tell me.

The point is i want to try some as soon as possible and want to know how soon that could be on average. Assume i have plenty of free time as well.

 

And the 2nd question is would you have any suggestions in order to make the learning of the kanji more efficient and directed torwards reading VNs. Because my goal is not really to go live in japan and speak japanese fluently, i just want to enjoy untranslated VNs.

 

Thank you to anyone who can give their opinion on this.

 

TL;DR: Nosebleed's lust for lolis demands he learns japanese quickly. How difficult would the japanese be? Tips to learn it?

now... answering to your questions...

1.- I only can understand when they speak. I'm a SLOW dumb reader.
2.- Practicing. Still, my reading speed hasn't improved.

[Nosebleed]

My guess is the only way to get this so called vocabulary made specifically for a certain VN is to read it and write down sort of a dictionary per say of the words i didn't get.

After knowing ~500 basic kanji from RTK and studying grammar of course.

 

And yes i know nukiges are for fapping but a knowledgable fap is better than an out of context fap.

 

This quote should go down in history.