New to VNs but not to Game Dev...looking for advice.

[NutsVolts17]

Hello Everyone!

I am new to this site but wanted to seek out some advice from VN pro creators and players alike. I am the programmer at Nuts and Volts Electronics. We are a small 3 person team that has created 3 games so far for the Steam platform on PC. My artist pitched the idea to create a Visual Novel for our next project. I am excited about the idea but have some questions and concerns.

I'll tell you about our project, ask some questions, and then post some screenshots of what we have so far (along with mentioning features.)

The project name is: Fate of Persephone

Inspiration: The classic Sleeping Beauty story (not identical but merely inspired by)

Basic Plot: The young Princess Persephone if Eden's Realm is thrown into a precarious situation after Nexa de Fata (the Fate of Death) destroys the Castle in Morseph which kills Persephone's father; King Gregory. Nexa believed Persephone to be dead as well but Persephone must consult with Vita de Fata (the Fate of Life) for help with her journey and survival. There are eight other Fates who you must determine where their allegiance will lie.

The story is also an extremely expanded sequel to an RPG game we released on Steam called "The Mines of Morseph" which touched on the lore of the game world. That game is not required to understand this one but foreshadows some things.

Anyhow, the technical specs are going to be: 

1920 x 1080 resolution artwork

Particle effects for the BG art (smoke, mist, dust, fire, etc.)

Atmospheric sound track (fire noise, crickets at night, etc.) along with music as well

Voice acting

12 different potential endings

Hundreds of decision points whose choices are weighted toward one of 12 ending scenario variables

 

Questions:

1.) I noticed that most VNs on Steam (I am not sure of the non-Steam market since I have only researched Steam) have Asian themes, characters, and settings. Are VN players open to more Westernized themes but in a VN framework?

2.) We were not planning to utilize mini-games, as we wanted the focus to be just on the story and the many decision points that the player can make. Is this a mistake and do the majority of VN players prefer mini-games?

3.) Do you believe that extra details like particle effects for the BGs and atmospheric sounds for the setting enhance the experience or distract from it?

I may have more questions later but that is all I can think of for now.

I am not sure how to add screenshot attachments on this site so I will just refer you to our Twitter page...

Thank you for your help.

Twitter: https://twitter.com/NutsAndVolts17

Our website: http://www.Morseph.com

 

Sincerely,

Matthew W. Phillips

Developer at Nuts and Volts Electronics

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, NutsVolts17 said:

Questions:

1.) I noticed that most VNs on Steam (I am not sure of the non-Steam market since I have only researched Steam) have Asian themes, characters, and settings. Are VN players open to more Westernized themes but in a VN framework?

2.) We were not planning to utilize mini-games, as we wanted the focus to be just on the story and the many decision points that the player can make. Is this a mistake and do the majority of VN players prefer mini-games?

3.) Do you believe that extra details like particle effects for the BGs and atmospheric sounds for the setting enhance the experience or distract from it?

 

 

Heya person, and welcome ;o)

Now I'll go to the point (answering the questions):

1) Don't need to be asian, srsly just be creative with your seeting, a lot of VNs have asian themes, so having one that is not that Asian-oriented is a breath of fresh air. (though beware of the prejudice against western VNs.)

2)No need for mini-games, unless they're an unlockable extras for completing endings n' stuff.

3)They certainly enchanced enhance the atmosphere (for the better).

Now I have some questions:

1)Will the VN be a linear story with endings, or will it have a route-type of structure?

2)Will there be an enforced playing order?

Nice things that could make the experience better (opinion):

A Built-in flowchart would be nice.

Ending list.

Unlockable bonus stuff, (extra epilogues, "making of", etc.)

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Guest

[Plk_Lesiak]

So, I agree with all the points above (TBH, there's too many VNs with Asian themes, doing anything else is the best way to make your product stand out), but one thing that I've noticed is that the whole project, as you described it here, sounds very ambitious and could require a large budget/long production time. Considering that a VN is mostly composed of dialogue, high-quality voice acting can become both a huge drain on resources and a technical limitation - it basically motivates you to keep the story shorter and avoid introducing additional characters, as every bit of complexity adds serious burden to the production process. If you add extra graphical effects and stuff like that to the mix, it starts to sound like a mainstream Japanese project and those are mostly made by large, well-funded studios.

So, while VN might look like a very straightforward and simple format, you should be careful to not underestimate the money and work required for producing a decent-quality one. Especially with voice-acting, for a small western studio I would more or less advice against using it, unless you're 100% sure you can do it right - "silent" characters are still more bearable than poorly voiced ones. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Plk_Lesiak

[Tamaki Sakura]

6 hours ago, NutsVolts17 said:

1.) I noticed that most VNs on Steam (I am not sure of the non-Steam market since I have only researched Steam) have Asian themes, characters, and settings. Are VN players open to more Westernized themes but in a VN framework?

2.) We were not planning to utilize mini-games, as we wanted the focus to be just on the story and the many decision points that the player can make. Is this a mistake and do the majority of VN players prefer mini-games?

3.) Do you believe that extra details like particle effects for the BGs and atmospheric sounds for the setting enhance the experience or distract from it?

1. Players can be open to non-Japanese themes, as long as the game is well-made. And fairy tales are a popular theme for original English-language visual novels. See titles like Cinders and Cinderella Phenomenon.

2. Personally, I hate mini-games in my visual novels. I recommend sticking with decision points unless you're making a full-on hybrid game with lots of gameplay. See brands like Eushully and AliceSoft.

3. Just make sure you put your money towards the right details. Players will notice CG frequency and variation in sprite poses/expressions/costumes. Concentrate on getting your main art in order first.

[NutsVolts17]

Awesome feedback from all of you! Thanks!

I do agree with Pik_Lesiak that bad voice acting is worse than none at all. Also, I am designing this without voice acting initially. That way, if it isn't in the budget or talent isnt available to do it right, we still have a complete project. This also allows me not to be constrained by worrying about word count and such. Also, by making the voice acting at the end (if available), I can present a full manuscript to the actors to complete in the minimum time possible. But I am definitely open to leaving it out if it cannot be done well (or within budget.)

Thank you to Tamaki for the advice on mini-games and details. We will definitely focus on the CGs. How many poses and expressions are common for frequently occurring characters?

To answer SeniorBlitz questions: 

1) It will all have a common start but branch from the root depending on choices you make. It is a 2-tiered structure. Certain path branches are determined by immediate decisions you make and certain paths are determined by the dominant ending variable. I essentially have an array of 12 numeric variables that each represent a given ending path. My engine is set up to where most every decision point has a weighted value for one of the paths. This value can be positive (more likely of that ending) or a negative (less likely of that ending). At the end of every scene, the engine calculates the max path value and sends you there accordingly. I am using draw.io hierarchical graphs to keep track of the potential paths and that makes life a TON easier. Some ideas overlap across different paths but most is unique material.

The actual structure (if you are curious) is that our scenes are numbered and I use an adjacency matrix to route to other scenes. Adjacency matrices are amazing data structures and allow for an organized but exceptionally complex amount of routing and references.

2) I assume you are asking if the novel will have the option to start somewhere other than the beginning? I hadn't though of that but I suppose it is possible. Seeing as how so much of the routing depends on variable values though, this would be difficult. I suppose it all depends on what players want but I am certainly open to any ideas on the matter.

You mentioned built-in flowchart and listing the endings. This does not spoil the experience or act as a spoiler? If not, I am all for it. Since I am listing this on Steam, it will have all of these endings as achievements as well.

Thank you all and I can use any help you can offer.

Matthew

Edited December 14, 2017 by NutsVolts17

[MaggieROBOT]

Let me help you too!

Enforced playing order is when a game have multiple routes, but only some of them were unlocked from the beginning. If you have to play a route lastly because the game hid the choices leading to it the first time around, then the orders is enforced!

And built-in flowchart are very nice and not spoilery at all! They actually helps completionists like me. Here's an example:

Those squares fill up when you see the scenes, so it's easier to find where are the scenes you missed!

Edited December 14, 2017 by MaggieROBOT

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, NutsVolts17 said:

You mentioned built-in flowchart and listing the endings. This does not spoil the experience or act as a spoiler? If not, I am all for it. Since I am listing this on Steam, it will have all of these endings as achievements as well.

You can make so that the flowchart and list appears while you progress through the game instead of showing the entire structure. Also be enforced playing order I was asking if the game will have unlockable choices\routes? (Like beat ending X, to unlock the choices for Ending Y, etcetera.)

Example of built-in flowchart:

Spoiler

 

(it's literally a giant flowchart that show the branching choices\paths, the player\reader can select any choice\event that they already seen, it makes exploring paths easier, 'casuse you don't have to make a save file for each choice, and also, you can see which choices and events you didn't see yet.)

Example of Ending List:

Spoiler

(It shows which endings the player\reader already unlocked, so they can keep track of how many ends they didn't see yet, some Ending List also has the feature to see the ending again if you click on the ending you already unlocked, without having to redo choices.)

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, MaggieROBOT said:

Let me help you too!

Enforced playing order is when a game have multiple routes, but only some of them were unlocked from the beginning. If you have to play a route lastly not because you wanted it but because the game forces you, then the orders is enforced!

And built-in flowchart are very nice and not spoilery at all! They actually helps completionists like me. Here's an example:

Those squares fill up when you see the scenes, so it's easier to find where are the scenes you missed!

Godammit, you posted at the same time as me xoD

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, MaggieROBOT said:

 

Which VN is this from?

[MaggieROBOT]

3 minutes ago, SeniorBlitz said:

Which VN is this from?

An 18+ otomege called Sakuya! Just started reading, that's why my chart is empty >.<

But it have a robot hero, yay! 

[NutsVolts17]

Oh, Ok. I see now. Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, the flowchart can definitely be added, I am sure. The ending list would be easy enough to implement as well once I set up a save file to record the data.

Regarding the "Enforced Routes", I am still confused about what you mean by "Enforced playing order is when a game have multiple routes, but only some of them were unlocked from the beginning. " 

The way I arranged it is that nothing is really "locked / unlocked" but is based on branching decisions and I guess you can say "route scores."

A cheesy example (not from the game) would be:

I have 10 routes (each route corresponds toward a certain ending) Each one of these has a numeric variable that keeps a weighted score.

Start story from common point. Tell some story and ask: "Hey so-and-so, how is your day going?"

Choice #1: My day is terrible! (depression path variable +1 weight)

Choice #2: My day is great! (optimistic path variable +1 weight)

The smallest "chunk" of story script I break the game into is a scene. These are numbered scenexxxx.txt (xxxx represents number from 0000 to 9999)

At the end of every scene, the story branches based off of one of two things:

1.) if the last line of the scene was a BRANCH command then it branches based on the decision given by the player

Example: Do you wish to come with me to the Last Rites Inn? Yes; No

BRANCHES allow immediate rerouting of the story for urgent things like the above decisions (or even allowing characters to directly respond to a question you ask)

2.) If the last line of the scene was not a branch then the program does a ROUTE which is just looking up the path (between 1- 10) that has the greatest value and selecting that path.

Which scene it loads is based on looking up the adjacency matrix for that scene.

Example Adjacency Matrix:

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 <- The column represents the path variable with the greatest value

0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 <- The row position (line 0) represents the current scene you are one. The value in each column represents the scene to route to if that variable has the max value

I hope that explains what I am doing.

Matthew

[Guest]

1 minute ago, NutsVolts17 said:

Oh, Ok. I see now. Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, the flowchart can definitely be added, I am sure. The ending list would be easy enough to implement as well once I set up a save file to record the data.

Regarding the "Enforced Routes", I am still confused about what you mean by "Enforced playing order is when a game have multiple routes, but only some of them were unlocked from the beginning. " 

I'll try to simply it:

Condition "If Ending X Variable=>1"

Yes:

Show choice to ending Y

If Not:

Skips Choice.

Enforced Playing order means: Beating certaing endings, will unlock choices to new paths, it doesn't have anything to do with the main point system, it's literally an unlocking conditon: "Beating Route A will unlock choices to Route B".

[NutsVolts17]

I would say no then. Since any paths are open from the beginning depending on your choices but not all paths can be reached in one play through of course since making certain decisions causes finality for certain conditions.

I am not sure how VNs normally tackle the problem of paths and stories. I purposely did it this way so I wouldn't be constrained by it so I coded it up in a way that would accomplish what I was trying to do.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, NutsVolts17 said:

I am not sure how VNs normally tackle the problem of paths and stories. I purposely did it this way so I wouldn't be constrained by it so I coded it up in a way that would accomplish what I was trying to do.

The majority of VNs use the Route system, that are many variations of this system, there are also of linear stories with Multiple Endings.

[Tamaki Sakura]

3 hours ago, NutsVolts17 said:

Thank you to Tamaki for the advice on mini-games and details. We will definitely focus on the CGs. How many poses and expressions are common for frequently occurring characters?

It can vary a lot depending on a game's budget. I'd say that 5-6 body poses with 2-3 clothing variations are common, and maybe a dozen facial expressions. A character will need a blank-faced version of each pose, clothing layers in each pose, and a set/sets of facial expressions (only one set is needed per character if the face is always seen from straight on.) Combine these layers to get your final sprites (do this before inserting them into the game.)

Oh, and chibi cut-in art is great for comedic scenes and very cost-effective.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Tamaki Sakura

[NutsVolts17]

2 hours ago, Tamaki Sakura said:

It can vary a lot depending on a game's budget. I'd say that 5-6 body poses with 2-3 clothing variations are common, and maybe a dozen facial expressions. A character will need a blank-faced version of each pose, clothing layers in each pose, and a set/sets of facial expressions (only one set is needed per character if the face is always seen from straight on.) Combine these layers to get your final sprites (do this before inserting them into the game.)

Oh, and chibi cut-in art is great for comedic scenes and very cost-effective.

Yeah, I may have to rethink this project if that is the case. I have done full scale real time games with free 360 movement that didnt require that much art for a single character. 

[Nandemonai]

Regarding point number 1:  While it is true most VNs are Asian-focused, and specifically Japan-focused, I wouldn't read too much into it.  This is because the Japanese have an edge in making VNs: they've been making them for about 20 years longer than the OELVN crowd, so they're (generally) better at it.  As such, Japanese VNs dominate the market.  This causes Asian / Japanese settings to dominate for two reasons.

One, a lot of OELVN writers will be basing their work off of what they know, which is predominantly Japanese work.

Two, Japanese VN makers very very often use Japan as a setting.  Not because VNs work better that way, but for the same reason that Japanese anime features the Tokyo Tower so much, or when Hollywood movies want to blow something up, they blow up the White House or the Hoover Dam.  It's just easier to write what you know.

If you ask me, the predominance of the Asian backdrop is more due to happenstance than to it being inherently more attractive to the VN audience.  I would focus more on writing a good story than on things like 'do I need it to be Eastern-themed or Western-themed in order to appeal to the market'.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Nandemonai

[Clephas]

19 hours ago, NutsVolts17 said:

Hello Everyone!

I am new to this site but wanted to seek out some advice from VN pro creators and players alike. I am the programmer at Nuts and Volts Electronics. We are a small 3 person team that has created 3 games so far for the Steam platform on PC. My artist pitched the idea to create a Visual Novel for our next project. I am excited about the idea but have some questions and concerns.

I'll tell you about our project, ask some questions, and then post some screenshots of what we have so far (along with mentioning features.)

The project name is: Fate of Persephone

Inspiration: The classic Sleeping Beauty story (not identical but merely inspired by)

Basic Plot: The young Princess Persephone if Eden's Realm is thrown into a precarious situation after Nexa de Fata (the Fate of Death) destroys the Castle in Morseph which kills Persephone's father; King Gregory. Nexa believed Persephone to be dead as well but Persephone must consult with Vita de Fata (the Fate of Life) for help with her journey and survival. There are eight other Fates who you must determine where their allegiance will lie.

The story is also an extremely expanded sequel to an RPG game we released on Steam called "The Mines of Morseph" which touched on the lore of the game world. That game is not required to understand this one but foreshadows some things.

Anyhow, the technical specs are going to be: 

1920 x 1080 resolution artwork

Particle effects for the BG art (smoke, mist, dust, fire, etc.)

Atmospheric sound track (fire noise, crickets at night, etc.) along with music as well

Voice acting

12 different potential endings

Hundreds of decision points whose choices are weighted toward one of 12 ending scenario variables

 

Questions:

1.) I noticed that most VNs on Steam (I am not sure of the non-Steam market since I have only researched Steam) have Asian themes, characters, and settings. Are VN players open to more Westernized themes but in a VN framework?

2.) We were not planning to utilize mini-games, as we wanted the focus to be just on the story and the many decision points that the player can make. Is this a mistake and do the majority of VN players prefer mini-games?

3.) Do you believe that extra details like particle effects for the BGs and atmospheric sounds for the setting enhance the experience or distract from it?

I may have more questions later but that is all I can think of for now.

I am not sure how to add screenshot attachments on this site so I will just refer you to our Twitter page...

Thank you for your help.

Twitter: https://twitter.com/NutsAndVolts17

Our website: http://www.Morseph.com

 

Sincerely,

Matthew W. Phillips

Developer at Nuts and Volts Electronics

 

1) Japan invented the Visual Novel as it is understood now, but it is a medium that you should feel free to take in a direction that fits your story.  Don't conform to Eastern expectations merely because the medium came from over there.

2)  The biggest mistake many developers make when making a VN is thinking 'lots of choices are a good idea'.  The fact is, relevant choices are good, irrelevant/random ones are bad, unless you are making a comedy.  Minigames are a waste of time, break the flow of thought, and turn away those who just want to read the story.  Adding in minigames for the sake of having minigames is a BAD IDEA.

3)  It depends.  Gimmicks like particle effects sometimes enhance the experience, sometimes they don't.  I primarily play Japanese VNs (almost exclusively), but I can tell you right off the bat that for every visual novel where I've seen a new mechanic, visual effect, or sound effect used effectively, I've seen five that manage to ruin the experience using the same tools.

If I have a piece of advice for you, it would be to focus more on the use of BGMs than obsessing over voice-acting.  A solid soundtrack that is used to effectively create atmosphere and mood in tandem with backgrounds and character sprites can turn a trite story into a work of genius.  Voice-acting, to be quite frank, is a budget-buster item that is just as likely to blow up in your face as create a good effect.  Good voice actors are expensive and directing voice actors is a specialized skill that takes a peculiar type of genius to get just right... so unless you have a skilled set of volunteers willing to take payment upon success, I don't recommend getting overly attached to voice acting. 

My somewhat acidic viewpoint on voice-acting comes from having watched voice-actors go from random staff members and regular joes dragged off the street to professionals that make careers off of their vocal cords and dramatic skills with their voice. 

Edit: I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I've had a friend go bankrupt because he overreached after some initial success in game-making... but voice-acting, sometimes seen as a necessity by the uneducated, is in fact just a luxury if you don't have the budget for professional work. 

Edited December 15, 2017 by Clephas

[NutsVolts17]

Thank you Clephas. I am starting to realize that voice acting isnt the priority that I initially thought it was. This is fine by me as it is one less expense and issue to worry about. And I would much rather do fewer things but do them well than take on too much and ruin a project.

[tymmur]

On 14/12/2017 at 10:50 AM, NutsVolts17 said:

1920 x 1080 resolution artwork

Why this specific resolution? It looks bad on my 1440p monitor because upscaling is bad when each pixel becomes 1.x pixels. Upscaling from 720p looks much nicer because it's 1 pixel -> 2x2 pixels. Int ratio works better than float ratio, particularly for values below 2. On the other hand 720p looks worse than 1080p on a 1080p or 4k monitor. Last, but not least: I know of VN players with hardware, which can handle 720p, but not 1080p.

 

I think you should consider making high resolution art and then use an engine, which can scale down at runtime. That way you can "natively" support multiple resolutions. I have seen 2500 pixel tall character sprites on a 720p VN and this allows it to display the character at any size needed and even do stuff like watching a character walking towards you and the sprite grows for each line. The growth will the be smooth scaling like changing from before to after size in 1-2 seconds and because it's so ridiculously overkill on pixels, each step will look smooth, even if zooming in on the head alone.

 

Sure it has the downsize of more GPU load and bigger files. Another solution is to pre scale and release multiple versions. Steam can do that with the beta system. If people prefer the 720p version, they can just pick a 720p "beta".

 

On 14/12/2017 at 10:50 AM, NutsVolts17 said:

Particle effects for the BG art (smoke, mist, dust, fire, etc.)

Be careful with those. Having a lot of effects or flashes on the screen can be not only distractive, but it can downright making me feel dizzy. Perhaps it would be a good idea to make game settings where you can set effects to high/low/off. That way you will likely entirely avoid the debate if you added too many or not. I know I will personally turn off all flashes if given the choice.

 

[NutsVolts17]

tymmur, I am already unlikely to create this project since it is looking to not be worth the trouble. There are other genres that have a much better "bang for the buck" as far as effort to end result.

VN crowd is far too picky for too little payoff.

 

Thank you for your input though.

(Scaling does not make things look good with raster art. Even if the aspect ratio is the same, there will be noticeable issues with the alpha channel on non-opaque images. Supporting multiple resolutions is great if you arent concerned with optimal image quality but things always look their best in the resolution they were designed for.)

[NutsVolts17]

1 hour ago, tymmur said:

Why this specific resolution? It looks bad on my 1440p monitor because upscaling is bad when each pixel becomes 1.x pixels. Upscaling from 720p looks much nicer because it's 1 pixel -> 2x2 pixels. Int ratio works better than float ratio, particularly for values below 2. On the other hand 720p looks worse than 1080p on a 1080p or 4k monitor. Last, but not least: I know of VN players with hardware, which can handle 720p, but not 1080p.

 

You are an outlier.

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/

According to Steam's hardware survey, 76.41% of players have 1920 x 1080 resolution. Your monitor is only supported by 3.34% of Steam users. 1080p is the MUCH safer bet and I feel comfortable optimizing for it since the trend of that monitor resolution has been going up consistently.

[tymmur]

25 minutes ago, NutsVolts17 said:

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/

According to Steam's hardware survey, 76.41% of players have 1920 x 1080 resolution. Your monitor is only supported by 3.34% of Steam users. 1080p is the MUCH safer bet and I feel comfortable optimizing for it since the trend of that monitor resolution has been going up consistently.

I wouldn't trust those numbers. It says 65.38% of windows users use traditional Chinese. I suspect your target group would be primarily those setting their computers to English, which would be 16.01%. Judging from those numbers, it's actually possible that none of the 1080p users speak English. I find it highly unlikely, but it's possible, which shows how screwed the numbers are. Now if it would be possible to filter to get only European languages, then it would be more accurate for the target group of a game released in English.

 

It should be noted that most VNs are released in 720p. I somehow suspect this is what the Japanese companies view as the perfect balance between quality, size and supported hardware rather than just some randomly picked number. However I will not rule out that the often small Japanese homes could be less likely to have big monitors than the western homes.

 

Also I woundn't recommend buying 1440p today (mine is getting old). There are some 1080p of good quality for a tight budget and if you want/have to spend more to get higher resolution, go for 4K. I don't think 1440p usage will rise as it's mainly a resolution from before 4K became good on a reasonable budget.

 

36 minutes ago, NutsVolts17 said:

I am already unlikely to create this project since it is looking to not be worth the trouble. There are other genres that have a much better "bang for the buck" as far as effort to end result.

That's the main issue with for profit software development. Regardless of what is said here, it will all come down to your risk assessment and prediction of consequences if sales fail. Nobody (sane) will blame you if you aim for lowest risk of bankruptcy rather than the most interesting game to develop or play.