Nasu-verse Discussion(spoilers to everything Nasu-verse related)

[madvanced]

If Nasu says your ordinary servant has about 1/4th of Arcueid in power, I'd assume she'd be able to beat rider without too much of an issue.... Doesn't Shiki kill a dragon during his fight with Nrvnqsr? He can't see her lines at night, though. I think she has the edge when it comes to defense as well as offense.

[Kaguya]

Yes but that is accounting for the servants own strength, the Pegasus that Rider uses far surpasses her own power, the Pegasus isn't a servant, it's a Phantasmal race just like the True Ancestors, and Rider's Pegasus is of the highest caliber, aka older than any true ancestor which does play a role in it's power. That 's the very reason why it's basically on the level of a dragon.

 

Also iirc Nrvnqsr has no Phantasmal Race in his body the most powerful animal he possesses is a T-Rex. That was the very reason why he could hold 666 lives in himself, because they were animal lifes inferior to those of humans, if it was with any Phantasmal race which by definition are greater than humans, the concept known as Nrvnqsr would cease to exist.

[Clephas]

Yeah, I remember that. When I'm talking full-power Arcueid I was thinking about something along the lines of Archetype-Earth.

For obvious reasons, I stopped reading into the Nasuverse after a while...

 

Those obvious reasons (for the dense or inexperienced)?

 

Simple... Nasu is slow and keeps going off an tangents rather than finishing what he started (a proper Tsukihime remake, the next Mahoyo episode, etc.).  Fate/Extra is the most boring Nasu-influenced game I've ever played... took all the worst aspects of P3-P4 and stuck them onto a half-assed story.

[madvanced]

He does talk about killing a dragon and an unicorn during his fight with Nrvnqsr, though...

Uh interesting that's something I didn't remember, I only recalled the animals he possessed to be completely honest with you. As a phantasmal race I don't know how strong a unicorn is, however if the winged lizard, really is a Dragon(could be a Wyvern or any other lesser form of a winged lizard for all we know) than that makes it so that a full power Nanaya Shiki would be able to fight pretty much everything from the nasuverse. Because on top of his eyes he would have Nanaya's "instinct" to fight against any non-human race.

[Kaguya]

Uh interesting that's something I didn't remember, I only recalled the animals he possessed to be completely honest with you. As a phantasmal race I don't know how strong a unicorn is, however if the winged lizard, really is a Dragon(could be a Wyvern or any other lesser form of a winged lizard for all we know) than that makes it so that a full power Nanaya Shiki would be able to fight pretty much everything from the nasuverse. Because on top oh his eyes he would have Nanaya's "instinct" to fight against any non-human race.

That's true, we don't know for sure it's a dragon. 

Well then, this opens the next obligatory question in this thread: "Can shiki kill servants?". I'd bet my money that Ryougi can, but I'm not too sure about shiki.

 

For obvious reasons, I stopped reading into the Nasuverse after a while...

 

Those obvious reasons (for the dense or inexperienced)?

 

Simple... Nasu is slow and keeps going off an tangents rather than finishing what he started (a proper Tsukihime remake, the next Mahoyo episode, etc.).  Fate/Extra is the most boring Nasu-influenced game I've ever played... took all the worst aspects of P3-P4 and stuck them onto a half-assed story.

CCC is better than Fate/Extra, though I can see why you'd want to avoid it.

[madvanced]

That's true, we don't know for sure it's a dragon. 

Well then, this opens the next obligatory question in this thread: "Can shiki kill servants?". I'd bet my money that Ryougi can, but I'm not too sure about shiki.

As long as both Shikis can see the death of servants, that is doable. Also a Nanaya Shiki using his family trait could be powered up since Heroic Spirits are no longer human. However I understand that seeing death and being able to actually be able to best a servant are different things so while Ryougi is pretty much a given Tohno/Nanaya Shiki is unpredictable to say the least.

[Clephas]

Probably it would be possible for Tohno to kill a Servant... given the advantage of surprise and close proximity (no chance to use Phantasm).  However, Ryougi, with her ability to cut through others' powers and capabilities, would probably win relatively easily with most.

[ServeTheServant]

Probably it would be possible for Tohno to kill a Servant... 

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/shiki-can-kill-servants

[Clephas]

Nasu has never been known for consistency...

[JustThisOne]

If we are talking about a fight, then Tohno will just get his ass blitzed. Most servants will just laugh at any attempt that Tohno tries to hit them.  

[Clephas]

Yeah, I was meaning more of an assassination... also, one of the reasons I said Ryougi Shiki would probably win is because she could probably cut the connection to the Holy Grail... no reason she wouldn't be able to, after all.  No connection, no manifest Servant, fight is irrelevant. 

[JustThisOne]

Cutting the connection to the grail is irrelevant (there is no connection in the first place, they are only connected to their masters), the grail helps summon the servants not maintain them. See Gilgamesh and Rider (post HF) for examples.

[Clephas]

Sakura had bits of the old grail inside her, even after Kotomine's (somewhat half-hearted) attempt to remove it and Gilgamesh was tainted by the overflow from the Grail in the previous war, which served to solidify his existence in the mortal realm as long as he absorbed mana regularly from an outside source.  All other Servants require an anchor, in the form of the Grail, or a purpose given by the world (when they have completed that purpose they are forcibly returned).  What the master provides is mana, which isn't sufficient alone to materialize a Servant in the world physically.

 

Edit:  In the case of being called by the Earth itself, a Servant is anchored by the Earth, whereas a Servant called for the Holy Grail War manifests using the existence of the Grail as a catalyst.

 

Edit2: Also, in Fate/Zero, Fate, and UBW, the larger main grail itself wasn't destroyed, like it was in Heavens Feel.

[Kosakyun]

Goddamnit. I just missed the power level discussion.

That seriously sucks.

Now, to give my part:

 

 

As long as both Shikis can see the death of servants, that is doable. Also a Nanaya Shiki using his family trait could be powered up since Heroic Spirits are no longer human. However I understand that seeing death and being able to actually be able to best a servant are different things so while Ryougi is pretty much a given Tohno/Nanaya Shiki is unpredictable to say the least.

 

I doubt that Shiki can beat a Servant. I don't remember if Shiki is able to hide his bloodlust or not, but considering that he did come from the Nanaya Clan... Also, Shiki's physical capabilities can't even compare to a Servant as far as I'm concerned, though his abilities do surpass those of a normal person. A Servant could probably best Shiki by reading his movements. Not to mention that the Servants are more dangerous than the enemies that Shiki faced in Tsukihime... Wait. Scratch that. I'm not sure about that. Arcueid's surely greater than a Servant, but I'm not sure about a Dead Apostle. For all I know, Servants should be able to best them. Shiki still has a fair chance though, since he still has his Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. I wonder what'll happen if he does pierce a point of death on a Servant. Will the Servant cease to exist physically, or will its spirit cease to exist too?

 

I read Serve-san's link, and it seems that many people also think that Shiki will lose to a Servant. I didn't even know that Shiki needed to comprehend their existence first before he was able to see their lines of death. Now that's new. Ryougi would also lose to a Servant, according to Nasu. That is, if this link can be trusted. Her most powerful form only being able to put up a defensive fight huh? That's interesting. I can't really comment more on that, since I've yet to see Kara no Kyoukai.

 

Edit: To be honest, I liked Fate/Extra. It was fanservice though. The concept of the Moon Cell was what made me interested in it. I should play it again someday. In an emulator.

[Kaguya]

Goddamnit. I just missed the power level discussion.

That seriously sucks.

Now, to give my part:

 

 

 

I doubt that Shiki can beat a Servant. I don't remember if Shiki is able to hide his bloodlust or not, but considering that he did come from the Nanaya Clan... Also, Shiki's physical capabilities can't even compare to a Servant as far as I'm concerned, though his abilities do surpass those of a normal person. A Servant could probably best Shiki by reading his movements. Not to mention that the Servants are more dangerous than the enemies that Shiki faced in Tsukihime... Wait. Scratch that. I'm not sure about that. Arcueid's surely greater than a Servant, but I'm not sure about a Dead Apostle. For all I know, Servants should be able to best them. Shiki still has a fair chance though, since he still has his Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. I wonder what'll happen if he does pierce a point of death on a Servant. Will the Servant cease to exist physically, or will its spirit cease to exist too?

 

I read Serve-san's link, and it seems that many people also think that Shiki will lose to a Servant. I didn't even know that Shiki needed to comprehend their existence first before he was able to see their lines of death. Now that's new. Ryougi would also lose to a Servant, according to Nasu. That is, if this link can be trusted. Her most powerful form only being able to put up a defensive fight huh? That's interesting. I can't really comment more on that, since I've yet to see Kara no Kyoukai.

 

Edit: To be honest, I liked Fate/Extra. It was fanservice though. The concept of the Moon Cell was what made me interested in it. I should play it again someday. In an emulator.

He just said that she'd be able to put a defensive fight... Seeing as how she needs one hit for a kill, I think she has more than a fair chance at winning. She's also the most powerful enemy in Fate Extra. 

 

As for Tohno, I don't know. I do think he's got a fair shot at assasination, though. 

[madvanced]

He just said that she'd be able to put a defensive fight... Seeing as how she needs one hit for a kill, I think she has more than a fair chance at winning. She's also the most powerful enemy in Fate Extra. 

 

As for Tohno, I don't know. I do think he's got a fair shot at assasination, though. 

I think that by a defensive fight Nasu means only being able to parry/block/dodge attacks without having the means to land a blow in return, also we have to remember that the concept known as death doesn't really apply to servants they are not alive to begin with. They are existances removed from the cycle of rebirth that serve the world.

 

p.s. - this is my only reply for now since I'm not at home and writing on the vita is a pain inthe ass.

[Kosakyun]

He just said that she'd be able to put a defensive fight... Seeing as how she needs one hit for a kill, I think she has more than a fair chance at winning. She's also the most powerful enemy in Fate Extra. 

 

As for Tohno, I don't know. I do think he's got a fair shot at assasination, though. 

 

I don't know her physical capabilities, so I can't really put out an accurate reply for that. Her being the most powerful enemy in Fate/Extra doesn't really do much justice, since Fate/Extra is set in a parallel universe. Also, I doubt that the Ryougi in Extra is the same as the Ryougi in KnK. 99 servants though... Strong.

 

I can't think of anything about Shiki that can show me a fair probability of him assassinating a Servant. It's like, y'know. He's human. Very human. Compared to the other beings there, at least. I thought about Shirou though, since he was able to beat Servants without having the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. He did have his projection magic, so there's that. But if Shirou was able to beat one, then I guess Shiki has a chance too? Just saying.

 

 

I think that by a defensive fight Nasu means only being able to parry/block/dodge attacks without having the means to land a blow in return, also we have to remember that the concept known as death doesn't really apply to servants they are not alive to begin with. They are existances removed from the cycle of rebirth that serve the world.

 

p.s. - this is my only reply for now since I'm not at home and writing on the vita is a pain inthe ass.

 

I'll just say that the power of the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception does not lie in killing, but in erasing one's existence. This is why Shiki is able to kill creatures that would normally reincarnate or regenerate when piercing their points of death. It needs to be the point though, since the lines only cut the existence, not erase it. Taking this into account, whether it is Ryougi or Shiki, a bearer of the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception would be able to erase an existence from the world given that they were able to stab the point of existence of that being. There are no exceptions to this as far as I'm concerned. The Eyes of Death Perception clearly defies the laws of the world, and therefore can erase heroic spirits from existence once they pierce the point of their existence. This would mean that being able to kill the Servants is a trivial thing. What we should be concerned with the most is if they have the capabilities to actually defeat or best a Servant in battle.

[Kaguya]

I think that by a defensive fight Nasu means only being able to parry/block/dodge attacks without having the means to land a blow in return, also we have to remember that the concept known as death doesn't really apply to servants they are not alive to begin with. They are existances removed from the cycle of rebirth that serve the world.

 

p.s. - this is my only reply for now since I'm not at home and writing on the vita is a pain inthe ass.

Doesn't really matter to Ryougi. She doesn't see death the way shiki does, and we know from Extra she can see a servant's death. She'd probably be able to kill mathematical and logical concepts like 2+2=4 if she put enough effort into it.

 

EDIT: She sees (and severs) the origin of something rather than it's death, which is fairly significant when dealing with servants and stuff.

[Nerathim]

Kishima Kouma is really powerful too, Nasu mentioned him as one of the very few characters being able to fight on par with servants, sadly he hasn't much screentime in Kagetsu Tohya.

[Kosakyun]

Doesn't really matter to Ryougi. She doesn't see death the way shiki does, and we know from Extra she can see a servant's death. She'd probably be able to kill mathematical and logical concepts like 2+2=4 if she put enough effort into it.

 

EDIT: She sees (and severs) the origin of something rather than it's death, which is fairly significant when dealing with servants and stuff.

 

Didn't know that. Sorry.

I wonder where the origin of Servants will lie then?

Would she go as far as severing history to kill a Servant?

Or would she go and sever the future as well?

This is assuming that the origin of the Servants do not lie in the World itself.

 

 

Kishima Kouma is really powerful too, Nasu mentioned him as one of the very few characters being able to fight on par with servants, sadly he hasn't much screentime in Kagetsu Tohya.

 

I only know him as someone from Melty Blood Actress Again Current Code.

He's fun to use. Insane attack power.

Sadly, I've yet to finish Kagetsu Tohya. I'll find time in the future though...

 

Edit: Holy shit. The Realta Nua scenes are better than the H-scenes in the original in my humble opinion. Too sweet.

[Kosakyun]

Oh. I didn't notice these three the first time I played Fate Extra.

[madvanced]

Finally finished Fate after 2 days without touching F/SN, now onto UBW(my best girl :3).

 

This time around Fate left me with more feels than the first time for some reason. I honestly liked Saber this time more than the first time I read Fate route, however I still found this route's Shirou to be the worst of them all. The only real thing he was able to do was "save" Arturia, other than that he was just derpy. Actually even the way the he "saved" her was derpy.

 

I'll just say that the power of the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception does not lie in killing, but in erasing one's existence. This is why Shiki is able to kill creatures that would normally reincarnate or regenerate when piercing their points of death. It needs to be the point though, since the lines only cut the existence, not erase it. Taking this into account, whether it is Ryougi or Shiki, a bearer of the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception would be able to erase an existence from the world given that they were able to stab the point of existence of that being. There are no exceptions to this as far as I'm concerned. The Eyes of Death Perception clearly defies the laws of the world, and therefore can erase heroic spirits from existence once they pierce the point of their existence. This would mean that being able to kill the Servants is a trivial thing. What we should be concerned with the most is if they have the capabilities to actually defeat or best a Servant in battle.

What I'm going to argue is a bit of semantics but it is important in this case. The Mystic Eyes of Death Perception(MEDP) don't allow the user to erase an existence(at least in Tohno/Nanaya's case) but rather to sever it.

 

You can thing of it like every being living or non-living as a connection to the world(aka the world serves as the anchor for their existence, much like the Holy Grail does to servants) so when you sever the lines it severs the connection between the body part and the body hence why regeneration is impossible.

 

However when you sever the point of death, you cut the connection between the being and it's anchor(it can be interpreted to be either the world or one's own body) hence why the state known as death occurs.

 

But because this dwells on the state of death of also means that it's difficult to affect servants with it, especially since they are only copies of their true body. They are spirits, as such only other spirits(in theory since you can argue that UBW route and Fate to some extent with Shirou's Caliburn rendered this notion useless) should be able to really interfere with them.

 

This notion of them being spirits enters the equation of Tohno Shiki's inability to conceptualize a servant's death. Because if you recall in Tsukihime, Shiki had a really hard time to comprehend the death of non-living beings, he was always on the verge of breakdown when he tried to do so. Since the existence of an Heroic Spirit is now far removed from that of a living being it would render Tohno Shiki's MEDP useless.

 

Also there's no telling what is the effect of someone that had his lines or point severed if s/he was able to use a True Magic that allowed the affected user to travel through time, or change time itself. Since the question would be, would the True Magic come out on top and make it so that the severing of the lines/point never existed, or would the the severing render any kind of time manipulation useless since the result of it always ends in death?

 

It would be interesting to see what would happen if such a situation arose.

[Kaguya]

 

Also there's no telling what is the effect of someone that had his lines or point severed if s/he was able to use a True Magic that allowed the affected user to travel through time, or change time itself. Since the question would be, would the True Magic come out on top and make it so that the severing of the lines/point never existed, or would the the severing render any kind of time manipulation useless since the result of it always ends in death?

 

It would be interesting to see what would happen if such a situation arose.

Arcueid said before that cutting the lines somewhat reverses cause and effect... It doesn't matter what happens, they'll die anyway, from what I remember. Even in time-reversal cases, like Ciel, where her body returns to it's original state normally.

[madvanced]

Arcueid said before that cutting the lines somewhat reverses cause and effect... It doesn't matter what happens, they'll die anyway, from what I remember. Even in time-reversal cases, like Ciel, where her body returns to it's original state normally.

I guess that without any direct situation where that happens all we can do is theorize about it. Also iirc Ciel's body isn't really a time reversal, but rather the return to a previous state, it sounds awfully similar but it isn't exactly the same thing.

 

She recovers because for some reason(I know that it has to do with Roa, but I don't remember the specific reason) her being injured goes against what the world considers to be correct, so it interferes and makes the body become what it has in its "memory".

[Kaguya]

I guess that without any direct situation where that happens all we can do is theorize about it. Also iirc Ciel's body isn't really a time reversal, but rather the return to a previous state, it sounds awfully similar but it isn't exactly the same thing.

 

She recovers because for some reason(I know that it has to do with Roa, but I don't remember the specific reason) her being injured goes against what the world considers to be correct, so it interferes and makes the body become what it has in its "memory".

Ciel's example was just to show that even when something should recover from that ability, it doesn't... I also don't know how the person would cast the spell after they're already dead, but still.

 

In Ciel's case, a gross simplification would be that she kinda is Roa except she's not, so she can't be dead without Roa being dead too since the world would get a blue screen of death.