Should these games (including several 90's FMV games) be classified/reclassified as visual novels?

[mikedo2007]

Hi,

I wanted to revived/revisit this 2014 thread about games like Telltale's The Walking Dead label/count as visual novel genre.  I know it's been 9 years since it's been last talked about.  But there's been a lot of well change of views on what counts or classified as visual novels.  What has changed over 9 years since the 2014 topic:

• The popularity of Her Story (2015), even though it's live-action it plays a lot like a visual novels.  It's not even made in Japan and yet it was able to gain mainstream popularity that no visual novels games from Japan was able to do.
• After Her Story, it led to a wave of revival of FMV games, and more of narrative adventure choice-making games like for example Life is Strange, The Bunker, Late Shift, etc...
• The popularity and re-release of retro video games from the 80's & 90's has led to re-release of early 90's FMV video game like Night Trap (yes, the cheesy FMV game that led to the creation of the ESRB), Double Switch, and earlier FMV games like Dragon's Lair, and Space Ace (both created by former Disney animator Don Bluth).

Now I know that click & point interactive games can sometime blurred the meaning/definition of visual novels.  If that is the case then does that make Her Story a visual novel, I mean if any of you played the game you can probably may classified this as a visual novels.

So going back to the 2014 topic of classifying Telltale's The Walking Dead game as a visual novel.  If 428: Shibuya Scramble is classified as a visual novel:

Then should Her Story, and these games be classified as visual novels too:

If you played Her Story, and/or Late Shift you can see characteristic of visual novels in them.  Should these 2 games be re-classified as visual novel given the gameplay is neither RPG, first-person, third-person but it plays like a choice-making pathway found in visual novels.  Does that extend to She Sees Red?

Again, does the gameplay in She See Reds now make it a visual novel?

What about early 90's FMV games like Night Trap, and Double Switch?  Can they now be classified as visual novels by today's definition.

What about Dragon's Lair and Space Ace, can these be classified as visual novels too?

Do you think these games I mentioned from your POV should be given visual novels classification?

Edited August 27, 2023 by mikedo2007

[Bredan]

I'll just say this : I wish there was 'VNDB' kind of sites for all types of games and books (with a story and characters at least). Sites like MAL or TheTVDB cover the films/series/animes mostly. Sites like Novel Updates cover some kind of books. But games (and a lot of book genres) are to my knowledge a lot less well covered.

In the absence of such sites, I therefore wish a lot more things could be classified as VNs just to be present in VNDB. Well anyway, sorry to have disrupted your topic and have a good day.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Bredan

[Erogamer]

No...........visual novels are text based like a well, a novel. They generally have static images, voice acting, and sound effects. Most do not have game play. The reason why the ones with game play are still classified as visual novels is because they are still primarily text based. Live action shows and fully animated games can NEVER be classified as visual novels. 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Erogamer

[mikedo2007]

10 hours ago, Bredan said:

I'll just say this : I wish there was 'VNDB' kind of sites for all types of games and books (with a story and characters at least). Sites like MAL or TheTVDB cover the films/series/animes mostly. Sites like Novel Updates cover some kind of books. But games (and a lot of book genres) are to my knowledge a lot less well covered.

In the absence of such sites, I therefore wish a lot more things could be classified as VNs just to be present in VNDB. Well anyway, sorry to have disrupted your topic and have a good day.

Not sure why you bothered to reply back to me if you didn't bother to answer my question nor give a good analysis of why these games I mentioned should or shouldn't be classified as visual novels.

3 hours ago, Erogamer said:

No...........visual novels are text based like a well, a novel. They generally have static images, voice acting, and sound effects. Most do not have game play. The reason why the ones with game play are still classified as visual novels is because they are still primarily text based. Live action shows and fully animated games can NEVER be classified as visual novels. 

I see.  So in order for a interactive movie game to be classified as a visual novel, it has to have a wall of text.  Am I reading that correctly?  So from what you said, Time Gal (a interactive laserdisc FMV game from Japan that was released on arcade, and SEGA CD) wouldn't qualify as a visual novel despite being made in Japan and fully animated:
 

If you said Time Gal is not a visual novel, then I guess Dragon's Lair and Double Switch wouldn't count.

But I do have 2 questions about visual novel I would like to ask: You said visual novel must have wall of text, and it has to be static images to be classified as a visual novel.  What happened if the visual novel was a live-action or animated FMV but still have a wall of text, does it still qualify as a visual novel?  Has there been any case of a visual novel games using live-action or animated FMV but is still considered a visual novel?

[Bredan]

47 minutes ago, mikedo2007 said:

Not sure why you bothered to reply back to me if you didn't bother to answer my question nor give a good analysis of why these games I mentioned should or shouldn't be classified as visual novels.

Sorry, I guess my answer deserved such a very pleasant reply... 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Bredan

[Erogamer]

3 hours ago, mikedo2007 said:

Not sure why you bothered to reply back to me if you didn't bother to answer my question nor give a good analysis of why these games I mentioned should or shouldn't be classified as visual novels.

I see.  So in order for a interactive movie game to be classified as a visual novel, it has to have a wall of text.  Am I reading that correctly?  So from what you said, Time Gal (a interactive laserdisc FMV game from Japan that was released on arcade, and SEGA CD) wouldn't qualify as a visual novel despite being made in Japan and fully animated:
 

If you said Time Gal is not a visual novel, then I guess Dragon's Lair and Double Switch wouldn't count.

But I do have 2 questions about visual novel I would like to ask: You said visual novel must have wall of text, and it has to be static images to be classified as a visual novel.  What happened if the visual novel was a live-action or animated FMV but still have a wall of text, does it still qualify as a visual novel?  Has there been any case of a visual novel games using live-action or animated FMV but is still considered a visual novel?

No for the live action. There has been a few that have been animated like School Days, but it still keeps the text box as it reads like a novel.  Here is how Visual novel database defines visual novels. https://vndb.org/d2 Section 1.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Erogamer

[mikedo2007]

2 hours ago, Erogamer said:

No for the live action. There has been a few that have been animated like School Days, but it still keeps the text box as it reads like a novel.  Here is how Visual novel database defines visual novels. https://vndb.org/d2 Section 1.

OK, so if a Japanese company decided to make a visual novel which consist of live-action FMV video reminiscent of Her Story, Late Shift, Night Trap, & Double Switch, then it could be the first in the near future I hope.  I wondered why no Japanese companies didn't take any inspiration from those recent FMV games that came out in the last few year to make a live-action FMV visual novel.

Also the link you gave me to visual novel database, this one got my attention:
 

Quote

• Grandfather Clause: Old school adventure games that serve as precursors to visual novels as a genre are in the database due to their historical value, and thus are exempt from some of the defining characteristics of a modern visual novel. There are already plenty of such exceptions in the database, so further additions are unlikely, and would fall solely on the decisions of moderators.
  
  Note: In some special cases, a game may be added even if it does not strictly adhere to the above points. However, this is the decision of the moderators. Do not add a game yourself expecting it to be an exception to the above rules.

So according to this rule and this logic, several early interactive film games and several early 90's FMV interactive games may qualify as visual novel.  I mean I got chance to read the history of visual novel, and I found out that Portopia Serial Murder Case from 1983 was the precursor to today's visual novel, so this means it could be classified as a visual novels.  That game may have also pre-dated Telltales games like The Walking Dead, and CSI point & click game.  Hideo Kojima's Snatcher even pre-dated visual novel games.

So according to VNDB's rule about the Grandfather clause, that means Dragon's Lair, Space Ace, Night Trap, Double Switch, The 7th Guest, and Phantasmagoria (probably) could qualify as visual novel according to what's written on the section.  That means Scene of the Crime (a 1986 interactive prototype for Night Trap) could qualify as a visual novel:
 

All of these pre-dated visual novels, and may have influence gameplay in visual novels one way or another.

I wonder if the Gabriel Knight series could qualify as visual novel too since it pre-dated visual novels and like visual novels, it made use of wall of text like visual novels:

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by mikedo2007
Adding Gabriel Knight series as another evidence

[Satsuki]

  

8 hours ago, mikedo2007 said:

So from what you said, Time Gal (a interactive laserdisc FMV game from Japan that was released on arcade, and SEGA CD) wouldn't qualify as a visual novel despite being made in Japan and fully animated:

I'm actually quite confused with your idea of "if it's an animated game made in Japan then it's a visual novel". They are allowed to make other types of the game too, you know?

And yeah, I generally do not consider these games to be visual novel - just interactive game/movie. After all, it's a visual NOVEL, so the reading need to be the main part, not the clicking (I have tried a game of this type before - the darn thing made me pick a choice every minute or two) and listening. Other things should only play as support element that even if you remove them, the game will still work just fine. That's why kinetic novel - a type of visual novel - exists - there is no choice in the game, some don't even have voices, all you need to do is read.

Btw, I do think that live-action and other non-traditional stuff are fine - as long as they still keep the elements mentioned above in the game.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Satsuki

[HataVNI]

I'm all for the FMV games being classified as Adventure games, but not as Visual Novels. Visual Novels, be it a bad term that it is, mainly refer to games with a NVL (text all over the screen) or ADV (textbox at the bottom of the screen or speech bubbles) styling. There are many RPGs and other games that would assume such designs, probably because it is just the common display style of dialogue in such games that aren't fully voice acted necessarily. FMV games are an interesting niche here, since this would suggest that games like PLUMBERS DON'T WEAR TIES for the Philips 3DO would have been the first western Visual Novel, and we can't have that.

I'm for including them in database though, maybe a new database based on the data that VNDB already offers, but is willing to add new titles to this will accomodate to those under the "Other" tag or similar. Time may tell.

[mikedo2007]

9 hours ago, Satsuki said:

  

I'm actually quite confused with your idea of "if it's an animated game made in Japan then it's a visual novel". They are allowed to make other types of the game too, you know?

Btw, I do think that live-action and other non-traditional stuff are fine - as long as they still keep the elements mentioned above in the game.

Sorry if I confused you, I'm just using Time Gal as an example before Erogamer brought up VNDB's Grandfather Clause and now Time Gal is back into play when it comes to if it should be a visual novel or not.

You're right about the other types of game that used animated or live-action FMV that is not visual novels.  I mean I would classified Scene of the Crime, Night Trap, and Double Switch as visual novels predecessor.  But I will not classify Corpse Killer, or Sewer Shark as visual novels.  

4 hours ago, HataVNI said:

I'm all for the FMV games being classified as Adventure games, but not as Visual Novels. Visual Novels, be it a bad term that it is, mainly refer to games with a NVL (text all over the screen) or ADV (textbox at the bottom of the screen or speech bubbles) styling. There are many RPGs and other games that would assume such designs, probably because it is just the common display style of dialogue in such games that aren't fully voice acted necessarily. FMV games are an interesting niche here, since this would suggest that games like PLUMBERS DON'T WEAR TIES for the Philips 3DO would have been the first western Visual Novel, and we can't have that.

I'm for including them in database though, maybe a new database based on the data that VNDB already offers, but is willing to add new titles to this will accomodate to those under the "Other" tag or similar. Time may tell.

I'm glad you brought up Plumbers Don't wear Ties (another game that I didn't know existed) because:

1. That would be classify as a visual novel under VNDB's Grandfather Clause and their definition of visual novel given this game came out in 1993/1994.

2. This game is getting a re-release this year for current-gen consoles.

Would I classify this game as a visual novel?  Probably a yes.  If I was a visual novel gamers, I would probably check this out for historical purpose.

So yes, because of the grandfather clause that would make me consider putting Dragon's Lair, Space Ace, Night Trap, Double Switch, Plumbers don't wear Ties, Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Father, The 7th Guest as visual novels.

[Erogamer]

Live action would not fit in this category. Part of the charm of visual novels is the cute 2D characters. If you read it right, the grandfather clause states that these games could be considered to be added to the database. However that does not mean they are classified as visual novels. I think many who play visual novels would not even consider a live action game because it does not have the charm of the adorable/cute anime characters a visual novel has. You can't see a girl as cute as Kuro on my profile pic in a live action :P. I honestly think we are beating a dead horse here tho. Play what you like, but that does not mean it is classified as a different genre of game than what it is.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Erogamer

[mikedo2007]

55 minutes ago, Erogamer said:

Live action would not fit in this category. Part of the charm of visual novels is the cute 2D characters. If you read it right, the grandfather clause states that these games could be considered to be added to the database. However that does not mean they are classified as visual novels. I think many who play visual novels would not even consider a live action game because it does not have the charm of the adorable/cute anime characters a visual novel has. You can't see a girl as cute as Kuro on my profile pic in a live action :P. I honestly think we are beating a dead horse here tho. Play what you like, but that does not mean it is classified as a different genre of game than what it is.

Well, what would you called Plumbers don't wear ties, and Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers?  They don't have anime but it sill play like a visual novel.  So according to your logic, 428: Shibuya Scramble is not a visual novel because it uses non-anime pictures, am I reading that correctly?

Also what happened if a Japanese visual novel developer decided to create a live-action FMV visual novel that is like Her Story, Night Trap, or Double Switch but implement a multiple-perspective concept found in 428: Shibuya Scramble, is that still a visual novel?

I view Plumbers don't wear Ties, & Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers on the same level as 428: Shibuya Scramble when it comes to classifying visual novel.  Other then a wall of text, visual novel plays like any interactive film/game like Dragon's Lair, & Night Trap,  That's why I would view both of these games as visual novel. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by mikedo2007

[Satsuki]

Btw, this is my personal way (so don't quote me on this) to tell if a game is a visual novel:

 

A visual novel consists of 2 main elements - Visual (graphic) and Novel (wall of texts). These two are well capable of creating a whole visual novel all by themselves, with everything else being optional.

Now, think about the game that get you all confused. Try removing every other elements from the game, leaving only Visual and Novel. After that, see if the game still remains fully functional, or if it's completely broken/turn into a completely different type of media.

A visual novel would still work just fine without the interactive element. Take Late Shift for example (that's the only one in your list that I have tried), if you remove the choices from it, what do you have left? A short movie, nothing more than that.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Satsuki

[adamstan]

5 hours ago, mikedo2007 said:

Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers

I loved it, but that's classic adventure game. While it's quite dialogue-heavy and has rich story, still it's point'n'click adventure. And what later become called Visual Novels, evolved from text adventure games - different branch I'd say.

Main difference between classic adventure game, like GK, and Visual Novel, is movement and puzzles - you have to make your character walk around and solve puzzles in order to advance the story. The one that really blurs that border is not Gabriel Knight, but YU-NO - I guess it gets classified as VN, because 

1) It was made in Japan and is still primarily advanced text adventure with pictures
2) The whole final part of the game ditches adventure gameplay and becomes pure VN - and that part is quite long.

So, still it seems that the main factor is the kind of gameplay the game has. For example, Bioshock series also features engaging story, but I'd never think about them as a VN's - they're definitely shooters - with a good story

Also, it's worth noting, that Visual Novel is primarily english term (even if it was coined by LEAF) - in Japan most of VN's are sold as just adventure games, so they might not care about the distinctions we make here

Edited August 29, 2023 by adamstan

[mikedo2007]

33 minutes ago, adamstan said:

I loved it, but that's classic adventure game. While it's quite dialogue-heavy and has rich story, still it's point'n'click adventure. And what later become called Visual Novels, evolved from text adventure games - different branch I'd say.

Main difference between classic adventure game, like GK, and Visual Novel, is movement and puzzles - you have to make your character walk around and solve puzzles in order to advance the story. The one that really blurs that border is not Gabriel Knight, but YU-NO - I guess it gets classified as VN, because 

1) It was made in Japan and is still primarily advanced text adventure with pictures
2) The whole final part of the game ditches adventure gameplay and becomes pure VN - and that part is quite long.

Also, it's worth noting, that Visual Novel is primarily english term (even if it was coined by LEAF) - in Japan most of VN's are sold as just adventure games, so they might not care about the distinctions we make here

You're not wrong about what you said.  I mean I understand your assessment and I'm incline to agree, but from my POV, I still considered Gabriel Knight to be a visual novel.  YU-NO may be visual novel to you (and I agree with you on that).   But I still would consider Gabriel Knight a visual novel.  Visual Novels may have evolved from text adventures game, but when visual novels start adapting FMVs and gameplay including point & click, and narrative adventure into it (and that extend to implementing RPGs), it completely blurs the line and that's where people like me would wondered if Dragon's Lair, Space Ace, & Night Trap should be considered as visual novel given the Grandfather clause.

[REtransInternational]

May I suggest a new category: CYOAA - Choose Your Own Adventure Anime