The underlying theme of sexualization of children in anime

[Eldin]

If someone were to say that 2D pictures are harmless, someone could say that they encourage people to commit crimes in real life, like child rape.

 

they could also say that loli hentai causes a decrease in birth rate since too many sods are too busy in their basement getting it on with five finger sally over real women.

 

without proof, all you have is words. there is no proof that a causes b in this instance.

[Yukiru]

they could also say that loli hentai causes a decrease in birth rate since too many sods are too busy in their basement getting it on with five finger sally over real women.

 

without proof, all you have is words. there is no proof that a causes b in this instance.

 

i like your wise words, i'll save them for my book of quotes~

[harry_kinomoto]

Very interesting debate and could go on forever. Let me highlight what I feel are the main issues that have been highlighted thus far:

 

Underage children are sexualised in anime/VNs/etc, often to a great deal.

This is best illustrated with a case example. Consider the picture below:  

·  Her body has proportions of an "hourglass figure" - something associated with femininity. This draws attention to the girl's breasts and hips - both of which play important roles in childbearing.

· There is a prominent bulge in her lower abdominal region - right where her reproductive organs should be. Reinforces the idea of "childbearing hips".

· Her groin area displays a prominent "cameltoe" bulge: ie female genitalia - ie more sexual imagery.

· Despite the nod to such heavy-handed subjects, the tone of the picture is generally carefree. The girl looks happy, inviting, and the backdrop is tranquil. It is made to help you enjoy the scene, generally help you believe you’re having a good time.

 

Needless to say, the anatomy of a normal child will not have such obvious emphasis in any of the abovementioned aspects. While it is of course true that artists are entitled to bend the rules of reality for the sake of art (so-called artistic license), their doing so encourages us to consider WHY they chose to emphasize THESE specific aspects and WHY they do it in THIS specific way.

 

 

Children in anime do not behave like children IRL.

Eldin said it well:

Give a real 14 year old boy super powers and he would be far less restrained with it than that and you would be hard pressed to expect him not to blow up the school for the jollies of it.

The depth of problems most “high-school” anime deal with and the psychological maturity with which their characters deal with them are way beyond anything I expect of many adults; let alone children. Indeed I think creating such powerful characters is the aim of the storywriter. It’s what makes them cool – it makes us admire them, then on some level try to emulate them IRL.

 

 

Do countries that do not operate within the Japanese cultural context have a right to tell them what to do?

the question was why a country that survives well and enough on it's own should change it's values. the answer is because some of those countries… have laws that are just outright retarded in every sense of the word.

Careful when you make judgements based on a single newsworthy story that serves more to grab your attention than to present the whole picture. While I certainly sympathise with the lady’s plight and hope she gets the legal protection she deserves, considering the merits of that law needs to be done in the context of the country that set them.

 

While Japan has low rape/paedophillia statistics, this may be more to do with the fact that their crime rate IS generally low; as opposed to evidence that their lolicon material does not encourage it. That is to say, the impact this material will have in a JAPANESE context will not be the same as the impact it will have on a WESTERN context. To know that, you need to consider societal/aesthetic differences between the two cultures, and whether or not these will have any impact to the end result.

 

 

Even if there is a law in place, would it be effective at all?

 

At its heart, it should serve to protect the children. That much, at least, should be clear. So this makes the question: does ALLOWING sexualised imagery of fictional children harm the IRL children?

In many ways, this also asks: does looking at 2D porn make people want to sexually abuse IRL kids. Many people have already given an emphatic “NO”, the reasons typically targeting the boundary btw fact VS fiction. While I can certainly see sense with most of these, considering how no one has ever tried to argue for the converse, let me for a moment play devil’s advocate and do just that.

 

Thing is, first impressions count. Canon be damned; Bakemonogatari’s Shinobu is a small blonde girl with the build of a loli, looks like a loli, and therefore for anyone who hasn’t read the story, they WILL invariably see her as an underage girl. And as Kitouski’s post demonstrates, trying to change their mind of this is very difficult. That said, as we learn more and more about her – not just her age, but also her highly-developed personality, her extraordinary memory, her exceptional fighting prowess, I think at some point in time the switch begins to flip and people realise that inside she is actually is a highly mature adult. Thing is before you know all this, its difficult to conceive that your eyes deceive you. Seeing BEYOND the superficial, certainly, is a very high-level mental skill.

 

Obviously, the danger then comes if someone is unable to deploy that skill, yet goes and reads one of those VNs with flat-chested characters as their protag. Even if they are not sexually explicit, I hope I have convinced you at least some way that things do not necessarily need to be that obvious before they potentially become a corrupting influence.

 

So what do I think needs to be done? At the end of the day, if someone is assured enough to realise that what they see onscreen is different to what they see IRL, its difficult to envision why eroge VNs would require stricter legislation than standard porn. While I remain convinced that their way of being explicit is still potentially more subtle, to the mature-enough mind, flagging up the fact that this IS porn (even though it may not look it) should suffice.

 

And that’s all well and good for making sure anime as we know it continues along I guess. However, I think it also highlights the sad fact that at its present stage, eroge VNs remain no more than porn, and, really, no more classy than that movie you might find in the red light district!! Sad times indeed

[Steve]

Consider the picture below:  

 

Did you choose this picture randomly or did you remember it from the time I posted it in the moderator section? xD

[harry_kinomoto]

Did you choose this picture randomly or did you remember it from the time I posted it in the moderator section? xD

LOLL nah, it was simply cos it illustrated the points I was trying to make best. Certainly didn't mean it as anything against anyone specifically - there are much more like it; just that this one was most conveniently available to hand!

[Zodai]

Did you choose this picture randomly or did you remember it from the time I posted it in the moderator section? xD

 

I'm curious

 

Under what circumstances was the picture posted?  :3

[Down]

Under what circumstances was the picture posted?  :3

 

Rest assured, we don't have a loli thread in the staff forum.

[Kitouski]

Rest assured, we don't have a loli thread in the staff forum.

 

Well there should be... ]':

[Steve]

I'm curious

 

Under what circumstances was the picture posted?  :3

 

Its a secret

 

 

Rest assured, we don't have a loli thread in the staff forum.

 

yeaaaaah, we doooo noooot have loli thread there, we certainly don't

 

 

ahahaha, MUHAHAHAHA, muhaHaHahAhAHAHA

 

...

[Zodai]

Its a secret

 

 

 

yeaaaaah, we doooo noooot have loli thread there, we certainly don't

 

 

ahahaha, MUHAHAHAHA, muhaHaHahAhAHAHA

 

...

 

Oh god

 

So much teasing

[Nosebleed]

This Debate could really go on forever so I'll just state my point of view on it.

 

I believe that what throws a lot of people off is the sometimes association between a Lolicon and Pedophilia. I'd like to start off by pointing out a huge difference in these 2 terms.

 

Having a lolita  complex or being a lolicon does not necessarely mean one would have sexual urges torward pubescent or pre pubescent girls under the age of 13/12. As stated in several stances most of these individuals are "attracted to the aesthetic of cuteness in the characters rather than the age of them"

The term has been evolving from fantasizing about "A young girl having sex with an older man" to being about "girl-ness" and "cuteness"

 

This is my understanding of the term Lolicon. Being attracted to a more girly, unrealistic and ideal "cute" girl/boy provides a disconnect from real life as girls/boys of these ages in the real world are NOT like this and I have never found any that would act in a similar manner. This is coming from someone who has a 10 years younger sister so I can personally witness everyday how those sexualized behaviors and aesthetic appeal do not exist in a girl of that age (Don't misunderstand i'm not calling my sister ugly, however there is no comparison between her and all the lolicon art I've seen). 

 

Being a pedophile is defined as having a sexual urge torward pubescent and/or pre pubescent REAL girls/boys, without a chance to control said urge, it is classified as a psychological disorder by many and I also agree it should and said subjects should be treated as patients and have  proper treatment for their condition. This is what leads to crimes such as rape and abuse of children since these people can not physically and psychologically control their urges.

This is the main difference between a lolicon and a pedophile. A lolicon enjoys the aesthetic appeal of a 2D drawn girl/boy of a young age that provides them with comfort and disconnection from the real world where said subjects do not exist, this does not mean they will try to rape and/or attempt to convice a girl/boy of said age to engage in sexual activity with them as a rusult of watching lolicon art. 

 

That is why i don't think this type of art needs any tighter restriction as far as the "crime" factor goes. A pedophile will be a pedophile regardless of wether or not he/she has seen lolicon art, they do not control it, it is a disorder that needs to be treated. A lolicon however will not engage in such illigal activity even if they do indeed get a sexual urge by watching lolicon material, there is no victim in this scenario, the material does not have self awareness, it will not be traumatized or tainted, nothing will be lost and the person can relieve their personal sexual urges without anything over the top happening.

 

Another throw back is the huge economical impact banning this sort of work would have in Japan. As stated in the first post it is a 450 billion Yen or 5.5 billion dollar industry and albeit being unaware of Japan's economical status I think most can agree that these numbers are incredibily significant torwards a country's economy. Though i do support the prohibition of selling such material to underaged people.

 

To finish it off, and what i believe is the most valuable factor here is freedom of speech. A lot of people say they are for freedom of speech yet works with these type of fictional material are seen as bad and wrong while the reality of it is they have no real physical harm torwards society. If lolicon art is so extremily wrong then what's up with all the tentacle rape? Surely that's allowed because it can't happen in real life however if you ask me i find that a lot creepier than lolicon art depicting a 12 year old anime girl. Considering these girls/boys have features that would never exist in real life such as a more evolved erogenous zone, an hourglass sillouette, developed hips and breasts, etc. all these are fictional as well and no one will find them in real life, so objectively lolicon art is just as fictional as tentacle rape and yet one is not nearly as restricted. And more importantly if one does not like this type of art one is not forced to buy, watch, read any sort of material of the sort, they can easily ignore it and it will not affect them in the slightest. I'm sure a lolicon can lead a perfectly normal life, he/she comes home from a normal job and performs house chores and then has his/her time releasing their sexual urge over lolicon art. Sure imagening this scenario right now is a little unsettling but the reality of it is no one would be harmed in the slightest in my opinion. By censoring even more of this sort of art, freedom for artists is taken away and I simply can not agree as it does not mean any real damage when it comes to statistics. If anything it would be an economical drop if said material were to be heavily restricted.

 

Being a lolicon does not equal being a pedophile and they must be seen in different ways and not have this connection that many people do as one does not impose any real danger to society while the other has a serious medical condition that should be treated as such, and relating a pedophile to lolicon art and any type of lolicon material is a lot of times mistaken.

With that i conclude my argument and personal opinion on the subject.

[Steve]

Being a lolicon does not equal being a pedophile and they must be seen in different ways and not have this connection that many people do as one does not impose any real danger to society while the other has a serious medical condition that should be treated as such, and relating a pedophile to lolicon art and any type of lolicon material is a lot of times mistaken.

With that i conclude my argument and personal opinion on the subject.

 

Well actually this is not entirely correct. Or more like the wording wasn't right.

The part when you said "one does not impose any real danger to society while the other has a serious medical condition that should be treated as such"

Pedophilia and hebephilia and in some cases ephebophilia (Lolicon is mostly the first 2, but some loli-looking high school girls are often characterized as lolis too, hence the inclusion of Ephebophillia) are medical terms for a mental condition for a sexual preference, but on their own they do not impose any real danger either. There is actually much more people with these conditions than you would think, but you don't know that because they are not rapists, that is the main difference.

The term pedophile is often time misused, not explaining a person with pedophilia, but instead misused to explain a person who has pedophilia and signs of violent tendencies towards fulfilling his (or her) desires, which is something completely different.

 

Lolicon manga and other loli media therefore most likely originated as an alternative for pedophiles and hebephiles to satisfy their desires using a fictional characters, therefore further suspending their desire for actual real life children and young girls (or boys in case of shotacon), that's why the actual rate of child rape in Japan is low.

 

And every time you can fulfill any desire with a fiction it is beneficial for everyone, because it is only fiction.

[Darklord Rooke]

Rest assured, we don't have a loli thread in the staff forum.

 

I so don't believe you

[Nosebleed]

I apologize Steve my wording wasn't correct indeed. What i tried to explain was the fact that such individuals (lolicons and others as you mentioned) would not engage in illegal activity such as rape and abuse of minors as long as they have their way to release their urges with fictional material.  I wasn't aware of those terms though so that's a flaw on my part. 

I do still maintain my stance on this subject and agree with you as this type of material doesn't impose any real danger as it is  completely fictional and provides an escape from reality for these individuals wether they are pedophiles or lolicons.

I was just trying to separate pedophile and lolicon as one is more interested in real minors and the other is interested in fictional ones and thus the first one has higher chances of engaging in criminal acts and that's what needs to be stopped, not the lolicon art as the latter doesn't impose any real danger. As being a lolicon or having sexual urges torwards a fictional character (wether it be a minor or not) is not stated as a crime and there is no real reason it should be considered a crime either.

[Isaac]

It always bothered me that anime is thrown with complaints about this subject, but western society doesn't like to take note of it in it's culture that's sex crazy with the opinion that "if you did not have sex before being 18 you are a loser".

[Joyjason]

A lot of great opinions have been presented in this thread. I'll keep mine short and sweet:

 

1) "Child pornography" does not actually correlate to real-life sexual assault of a child. 

 

2) I'm a lolicon. However, I feel more disgust at "children" in real life rather than in anime, because they're really stubborn, annoying, loud, inconsiderate, selfish, and the list goes on. The "children" that I find favorable are pretty much nonexistent, impossible or even unreasonable (xD)

 

3) Nosebleed is dead-on with his quote: "As stated in several stances most of these individuals are "attracted to the aesthetic of cuteness in the characters rather than the age of them". 

That, my good sirs, describes me perfectly. 

 

4) I know my limits, and when there are "games" that explicitly imply child pornography (whether 3D OR 2D), I'm disgusted by it. When the character is a loli, then that's fine. 

 

5) The Japanese government created anime for the sole reason of "soft power" after WWII. As far as I'm concerned, they pretty much set themselves up for this kind of mess... It's human nature to see how far they can go, and with "art", that "limit" is pretty much non-existent. (Like, you don't see many sex scenes or vulgar elements in K-dramas, since it involves real people with lives of their own... Don't ask me about JAVs, because I'm totally ignorant with them)

 

tl;dr. 

Keep 2D separate from reality, and you're fine.