Re:zero discussion (and some other non important Summer 2016 anime)

[havoc]

1 hour ago, Jun Inoue said:

Complexity does not necessarily mean realism.  I do not know some of the characters there, but is anyone even somewhat comparable to Subaru's situation? Cuz comparing characters on realism feels a bit fruitless, as it's more about the character itself, than how it relates to others.

The way I see it, Subaru has been one of the most human characters ever in anime when it comes to exploring mental stress, baggage, and the problems of revival or any kind of reset system. I can't even remember how many times I've discussed with people cuz they were going "lol why doesn't Subaru start training non-stop and just suicide to get more time and training." I get the feeling so many people still do not understand that getting killed / committing suicide is not a fun activity, but something that greatly burdens the mind. And Subaru has been doing it non-stop, to the point of crumbling a couple times (during the second arc, and all these episodes in this third arc). And as far as I know, there's not many characters that have been in similar experiences.

Something people also forget is that Subaru is already a broken human who gets transported into this world. And the series, especially this arc, has explored this side of people, bringing us one of the most realistic portrayals of this side of people in anime. As I said, I don't know some of the characters you mentioned, but with the ones I do know, I get the feeling you are just going for the "full package", series that portray a bit of everything and try to grasp all that makes a person, which would make me say again that complexity or length is not necessarily realism. Or, rather, than lacking those is not necessarily lack of realism. Subaru is practically a social experiment, and shows a side of main characters being actually human and suffering for it.

Subaru is a great example of exploring metal stress, baggage and the problem of revival. In that he is a good example if a bit on the flat side, I never meant to say he was not a good example of that. 
And with basically no anime exploring things like PTSD it is about the only example and it does manage to be convincing in that regard.
The problem i have with subaru is that he never ever stopped to consider what he is doing, and as such has until this episode basically not changed from how he was in episode one.
And i dont mean by taking the time to consider that he needs to train, commit suicide and do it all over again. That would be way to taxing on the mind.

But he never ever considered explaining is actions and providing a basis as to why he knows certain things. Moreover he kept thinking he was special and deserved special treatment up until now. This makes him a very flat character and he basically invited all the shit he got onto himself.

And being a NEED, socially challenged and a recluse has absolutely nothing to do with being dumber than the rear end of a donkey, a arrogant piece of shit and being unable to relate to other people. He never stopped to think about how other people who interpret his words and actions. He was always frantic and in a hurry, because his only though was "i'm scared, i'm scared, i'm scared" after dying an getting reset so many times you need to learn to distance yourself and any real person would, right until the moment it is over after which most people would collapse into a wet, snotty, slimy pile of goo.

If i take Linn Jinto as a example (mostly because i am currently rereading the novels)
There is a scene in which he has to shoot people, his reaction to it is the following:
Ow heavens I'm shooting people
This shows he is scared, and is fully aware of what he is doing (Killing people, well failing miserably at hitting anything mostly) but it also shows he is detached from the actual event and in a calm state of mind despite having to frantically fight for his life.
On another scene where the odds look bleak his reaction is the following:
Well i guess we are going to die today
It again shows the same feelings as above, but because they have been chased for so long  he has reached a point where he basically does not really care what happens next. He simply thinks at this point, whatever happens, happens.
Does this mean he does not care whether he lives or die, no but it shows his exhaustion at the situation.

Another big difference between the two is that Linn Jinto, had earned  trust in his partner Lafiel. This gave him a lot of mental support in order to stay sane an keep going.
Which is something subaru never had with emilia, he has always felt superior to her and never trusted her. He saw her more a an object then a human being.
Why he felt superior, I don't know but he has absolutely no reason to do so. He has no knowledge about the world and cant survive without her, yet he still feels superior to her in every way. He never trusted her which also contributes to the shit he gets.

[Jun Inoue]

22 minutes ago, havoc said:

Subaru is a great example of exploring metal stress, baggage and the problem of revival. In that he is a good example if a bit on the flat side, I never meant to say he was not a good example of that. 
And with basically no anime exploring things like PTSD it is about the only example and it does manage to be convincing in that regard.
The problem i have with subaru is that he never ever stopped to consider what he is doing, and as such has until this episode basically not changed from how he was in episode one.
And i dont mean by taking the time to consider that he needs to train, commit suicide and do it all over again. That would be way to taxing on the mind.

But he never ever considered explaining is actions and providing a basis as to why he knows certain things. Moreover he kept thinking he was special and deserved special treatment up until now. This makes him a very flat character and he basically invited all the shit he got onto himself.

And being a NEED, socially challenged and a recluse has absolutely nothing to do with being dumber than the rear end of a donkey, a arrogant piece of shit and being unable to relate to other people. He never stopped to think about how other people who interpret his words and actions. He was always frantic and in a hurry, because his only though was "i'm scared, i'm scared, i'm scared" after dying an getting reset so many times you need to learn to distance yourself and any real person would, right until the moment it is over after which most people would collapse into a wet, snotty, slimy pile of goo.

If i take Linn Jinto as a example (mostly because i am currently rereading the novels)
There is a scene in which he has to shoot people, his reaction to it is the following:
Ow heavens I'm shooting people
This shows he is scared, and is fully aware of what he is doing (Killing people, well failing miserably at hitting anything mostly) but it also shows he is detached from the actual event and in a calm state of mind despite having to frantically fight for his life.
On another scene where the odds look bleak his reaction is the following:
Well i guess we are going to die today
It again shows the same feelings as above, but because they have been chased for so long  he has reached a point where he basically does not really care what happens next. He simply thinks at this point, whatever happens, happens.
Does this mean he does not care whether he lives or die, no but it shows his exhaustion at the situation.

Another big difference between the two is that Linn Jinto, had earned  trust in his partner Lafiel. This gave him a lot of mental support in order to stay sane an keep going.
Which is something subaru never had with emilia, he has always felt superior to her and never trusted her. He saw her more a an object then a human being.
Why he felt superior, I don't know but he has absolutely no reason to do so. He has no knowledge about the world and cant survive without her, yet he still feels superior to her in every way. He never trusted her which also contributes to the shit he gets.

Subaru tries to explain his actions, but the power's limit stops him every time. Furthermore, these last episodes have shown that the power seems to be sentient, so trying to be smart or explaining the power in some other way won't work out, either killing him or people around.

The reason you consider him flat is the very same reason that makes him so human. Think about it. He's flat cuz he keeps thinking he's special and deserves special treatment? Subaru is a socially deficient, broken person who gets transported into a fantasy world, something that's basically the dream of about at least 1/3 of teenagers in the whole world. It's the exact opposite! His character would be flat and unbelievable if he suddenly became a humble, honest person who just wants to enjoy his life. It would be absolutely out of character, but that's what we get in 4 out of 5 anime of the isekai genre. Want to know another great example of this? Kono Suba. It's another isekai anime where the MC realises that this is not just some epic adventure, and that he might actually be fucked up. Kono Suba makes fun of the genre with comedy and subversion of expectations, and has a cast of useless people trying to be happy. Re:Zero criticises the genre with dark themes and the contrast of how people would actually act in this situation, compared to the would-be heroes we always see. It has a cast trying to be happy in an awful world.

Him being a neet and socially challenged is PRECISELY what explains his problems with relating to others, and how upon coming to this world he got a really strong hero-centred morals problem. Anyone in the same situation would flip so hard about being transported into a fantasy world, expecting adventures and whatnot. But Subaru is a socially-flawed (more than people usually are) person, so he takes the backlash even harder, and when the stress of the situation breaks him, he breaks hard.
It's very simple for us, the third party spectator, to consider him an idiot who cannot put 2 and 2 together, but then we'd be ignoring who Subaru is, and how fucked up his situation has been time and again.

The examples you are giving are of people who were not as broken as Subaru. Going through with stuff and then, afterwards, collapsing, is basically being the hero of the moment and then collapsing under the realisation of what you've done. But Subaru is not able to, so he shouldn't do it. Subaru is even less able than a standard person, and he has not a single distinct skill. His rant in episode 18 pretty much explains how it's ironic and impressive that he got so far even though he's so incredibly useless and spineless as a person.

Your latter example gives even more insight to how human Subaru is. He has no reason to feel superior? On the contraire! The previous arcs (and in the third we see the consequences of it) confirm how Subaru believes to be the hero of a story. Everything will work out in the end, cuz he's the hero and he has an awesome power. Why did Subaru mess up so incredibly hard the human relationships in the third arc?
It's because he got to the critical point where he barely even considered other people human, with their own ideas, motives, etc. Subaru demanded things of them, cuz he's the hero and needs shit done, but didn't really consider that the other characters are not NPCs in a game, but people like him.
This makes us look back and realise why and how Subaru actually didn't treat Emilia as a person, but instead as the waifu and love-interest of his adventure. Much like he himself says, he talks big even though he can't do anything precisely because he can't do anything. Bluffing is all he could do, because the other option was admitting how deeply useless and flawed he is, something people will very rarely be willing to acknowledge or remotely think about (obviously, no one wants to consider this sort of topics).

You also touch on another matter that makes Subaru so human. Linn Jinto has some mental support. Subaru does not. The limits on his power mean that he's thoroughly alone in his attempts to fix stuff when time resets. Rem followed him out of love and duty, but that was all, and Subaru wasn't ready to accept that blind trust. Another example is how the MC in Steins;Gate also has a degree of moral support, instead of going through time completely alone and misunderstood.

[Jibril]

6 minutes ago, havoc said:

Subaru is a great example of exploring metal stress, baggage and the problem of revival. In that he is a good example if a bit on the flat side, I never meant to say he was not a good example of that. 
And with basically no anime exploring things like PTSD it is about the only example and it does manage to be convincing in that regard.
The problem i have with subaru is that he never ever stopped to consider what he is doing, and as such has until this episode basically not changed from how he was in episode one.
And i dont mean by taking the time to consider that he needs to train, commit suicide and do it all over again. That would be way to taxing on the mind.

But he never ever considered explaining is actions and providing a basis as to why he knows certain things. Moreover he kept thinking he was special and deserved special treatment up until now. This makes him a very flat character and he basically invited all the shit he got onto himself.

And being a NEED, socially challenged and a recluse has absolutely nothing to do with being dumber than the rear end of a donkey, a arrogant piece of shit and being unable to relate to other people. He never stopped to think about how other people who interpret his words and actions. He was always frantic and in a hurry, because his only though was "i'm scared, i'm scared, i'm scared" after dying an getting reset so many times you need to learn to distance yourself and any real person would, right until the moment it is over after which most people would collapse into a wet, snotty, slimy pile of goo.

An anti-social no good NEET who only wastes his time suddenly gets teleported to a fantasy world out of nowhere. His arrogancy comes from that fact. He's summoned. He feels "special" and thus thought that he is the "Main character". I mean does your usual average run-in-the mill main character of an average anime ever think what they're doing? Hardly and Subaru is copying that very mentality. He thought that since he is "summoned" therefore he should act like your usual average MC thus would without a doubt save the world.... 

What episode 18 does is very simple. Subaru faces the realization on the fact that he's just an average person. Not some chosen hero or the main character of an epic story. What he fails to realize is the fact that he is already a "Main character" for a certain someone, and yes that is Rem's purpose on this episode. This is actually very realistic. IRL there's no doubt that there are numerous cases where people thought they have never done enough, but in reality, they have already helped a lot of people, especially those that are close to them. 

Also the first 2 arcs have the plot devices already set up for Subaru. You can easily see that problems suddenly come to him which he needs to solve. Third (current) arc doesn't do that. Subaru thought that whatever is Emilia doing in the Capital must have been something important that needs him though and thus arrogantly broke Lia's promise and went to the Capital thinking maybe there are some world saving that needs to be done. After that he discovers how wrong he is....

Subaru is no longer the Subaru in episode one. Well I do hope that's what happens, though next episode could prove me wrong/right so let's just see what would come out next week~

P.S. I guess the one criticism I have right now for RZero is how convenient the plot devices are for the first 2 arcs. First arc being his lucky coincidental meeting with Emilia saving Subaru from the bandits and for the Second arc where coincidentally there is a Mabeast that just happens to be hidden in the village. Though it sets up for a great third arc with amazing development for Subaru, I still feel it's too Deus Ex... even if they decided to do something like "It's all according to Satella's plan!" kind of twist later on in the show...

[Jun Inoue]

35 minutes ago, Jibril said:

An anti-social no good NEET who only wastes his time suddenly gets teleported to a fantasy world out of nowhere. His arrogancy comes from that fact. He's summoned. He feels "special" and thus thought that he is the "Main character". I mean does your usual average run-in-the mill main character of an average anime ever think what they're doing? Hardly and Subaru is copying that very mentality. He thought that since he is "summoned" therefore he should act like your usual average MC thus would without a doubt save the world.... 

What episode 18 does is very simple. Subaru faces the realization on the fact that he's just an average person. Not some chosen hero or the main character of an epic story. What he fails to realize is the fact that he is already a "Main character" for a certain someone, and yes that is Rem's purpose on this episode. This is actually very realistic. IRL there's no doubt that there are numerous cases where people thought they have never done enough, but in reality, they have already helped a lot of people, especially those that are close to them. 

Also the first 2 arcs have the plot devices already set up for Subaru. You can easily see that problems suddenly come to him which he needs to solve. Third (current) arc doesn't do that. Subaru thought that whatever is Emilia doing in the Capital must have been something important that needs him though and thus arrogantly broke Lia's promise and went to the Capital thinking maybe there are some world saving that needs to be done. After that he discovers how wrong he is....

Subaru is no longer the Subaru in episode one. Well I do hope that's what happens, though next episode could prove me wrong/right so let's just see what would come out next week~

P.S. I guess the one criticism I have right now for RZero is how convenient the plot devices are for the first 2 arcs. First arc being his lucky coincidental meeting with Emilia saving Subaru from the bandits and for the Second arc where coincidentally there is a Mabeast that just happens to be hidden in the village. Though it sets up for a great third arc with amazing development for Subaru, I still feel it's too Deus Ex... even if they decided to do something like "It's all according to Satella's plan!" kind of twist later on in the show...

Well, coincidences DO happen. They don't really need a reason unless they are baffling. Like, I'm pretty food friends with a guy I met because I failed literature in my first year of university and discussing smth in a facebook group for us 1st years he saw that my avatar was a fan picture of PewDiePie, and conversation led to friendship. It's a pretty big coincidence that he happened to glimpse at my avatar and it led him to talk to me, but that's life.

 

I'm also gonna leave this here, to aid the explanation we've been doing, and for anyone interested.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtagonistCenteredMorality

[SilverLi]

4 hours ago, Jun Inoue said:

Lol what are you even talking about. So he has to get together with Rem cuz she loves him? His feelings and who does he love matter not?

Re-read your message, Li xD

Well that was a bit bad by me I agree. I am just frustrated that he whines so much and asked her to run away with him. She more or less accepted it with her story of the future and he does a U turn and reject her. And now he suddenly got some balls.

I agree that this is more realistic than other animes. But I think this was really badly handled. I'm not by any mean a Rem fan but this was horrible. 

[Jun Inoue]

3 minutes ago, SilverLi said:

Well that was a bit bad by me I agree. I am just frustrated that he whines so much and asked her to run away. She more or less accepted it with her story of the future and he does a U turn and dump her. 

I agree that this is more realistic than other animes. But I think this was really badly handled.

We all disagree with him, since Rem is best girl. And his infatuation with Lia is a bit childish, but that's to be expect in a way from this character. Wouldn't call it a U turn though. He has always loved Lia, and still does. And him "dumping" Rem is one of the few mature things he's done. If it had been the old Subaru, then maybe he'd have taken the chance to go with Rem without really loving her, as a means to escape his cruel reality, and run away.

Personally, and as I've stated in my quite long messages, I believe the author has masterfully developed the morals and psychology of the characters in the isekai genre. As a guy just said in another forum, and in order not to repeat myself or my earlier messages:

"I thought it was a reasonable, satisfying resolution to Subaru's latest round of suffering and psychological breakdown, and thematically appropriate to boot. The Sin of Pride had none before entering this world; through a combination of NEET-in-a-fantasy-world fantasy and a peculiar curse, he developed his fair share of pride (and no small helping of arrogance), only to eventually have it beaten out of him by repeated, complete failure, and no small number of torturous deaths. Finally, the only person with unshakeable faith in him shows him another perspective on himself, he regains his pride (and his senses), and we're ready for another bona fide attempt at his helping Emilia to overcome this latest Ordeal."

 

Still, your frustration is good. It means Re:Zero is doing its job at beating us for how used we are to the happy-go-lucky kind of isekai anime we are so used to.

[SilverLi]

Yes of course. No need to state that again. I read the wall of texts. What I don't understand is his unwillingness to even try to hint or explain anything. But I guess it is more correct towards his former NEET life. He can't communicate and instead he just grab their hands and run without explaining anything. To be honest I am surprised they allowed it. I would never just follow anyone without a brief explanation at least.

Oh look a strange man wants to drag me away here. That's fiiiine let's follow him while I am meekly complaining and asking questions without even bothering to stop and think or question the decision.

[Jun Inoue]

9 minutes ago, SilverLi said:

Yes of course. No need to state that again. I read the wall of texts. What I don't understand is his unwillingness to even try to hint or explain anything. But I guess it is more correct towards his former NEET life. He can't communicate and instead he just grab their hands and run without explaining anything. To be honest I am surprised they allowed it. I would never just follow anyone without a brief explanation at least.

Oh look a strange man wants to drag me away here. That's fiiiine let's follow him while I am meekly complaining and asking questions without even bothering to stop and think or question the decision.

Maybe the strange man has candy, though!

And yeah, that's what we've seen during this third arc, too. Subaru no longer has everyone's unconditional trust. They refuse to just follow him cuz he says so.

We don't know much about the power, but I think it's safe to say that it's sentient enough that it won't let him hint or point out that he knows the future or shit like that. In the end, he explained nothing to Lia last time, just had the intention of doing it, and the power activated immediately and killed her. This seems to imply that the power is not something automatic, but truly an effect that knows when Subaru is trying to spill the beans.

[SilverLi]

26 minutes ago, Jun Inoue said:

Maybe the strange man has candy, though!

And yeah, that's what we've seen during this third arc, too. Subaru no longer has everyone's unconditional trust. They refuse to just follow him cuz he says so.

We don't know much about the power, but I think it's safe to say that it's sentient enough that it won't let him hint or point out that he knows the future or shit like that. In the end, he explained nothing to Lia last time, just had the intention of doing it, and the power activated immediately and killed her. This seems to imply that the power is not something automatic, but truly an effect that knows when Subaru is trying to spill the beans.

Most likely about hinting. It was somewhat more understandable last week's episode than it was in the beginning. But as long we don't get an explanation I am not satisfied how he acted.

The mental breakdown was good too. I thought it would've happen sooner or later. But he had to go through some serious shit before that happened. Kudos to his strong willpower anyway.

[havoc]

23 minutes ago, Jun Inoue said:

We don't know much about the power, but I think it's safe to say that it's sentient enough that it won't let him hint or point out that he knows the future or shit like that. In the end, he explained nothing to Lia last time, just had the intention of doing it, and the power activated immediately and killed her. This seems to imply that the power is not something automatic, but truly an effect that knows when Subaru is trying to spill the beans.

We don't actually know that, Because so far he only tried to explain the revival stuff.
He never tried toe explain that he came from a different dimension, or come from the future.

And if the cure or something is sentient then it should have killed him the moment he tried to take out his cellphone or the plastic bag with instant noodles.

Those could all be used as evidence that he comes from a different world, or the future.
Or he could use them to just make up whatever the hell he needs to get them to listen to him, it does not have to be the truth.
Same goes for his clothes which from the looks of it is a track suit which are often made from polyester which is a artificial thread and as such is another piece of evidence.
(On the topic of the plastic bag with food, what the hell happened to it? It is featured rather prominently in the opening and we have not seen it since the first few episode. And i don't think we ever saw him throwing it away or eating it)

It would also be highly problematic for the curse to kill him when he explains he is from the future or a different world.
As it would only take one or two curious persons to basically get him stuck in a infinite reboot.
I mean is nobody in that world curious enough to as, what is that cellphone thing actually and how does it work?
Or what are those clothes made off, I have never seen such a fabric.
Or what is that bag made off and what are those cups.

So I think there are options regarding the curse or whatever it is.
It probably is not truly sentient but more like computer AI sentient.

[Jun Inoue]

1 hour ago, havoc said:

We don't actually know that, Because so far he only tried to explain the revival stuff.
He never tried toe explain that he came from a different dimension, or come from the future.

And if the cure or something is sentient then it should have killed him the moment he tried to take out his cellphone or the plastic bag with instant noodles.

Those could all be used as evidence that he comes from a different world, or the future.
Or he could use them to just make up whatever the hell he needs to get them to listen to him, it does not have to be the truth.
Same goes for his clothes which from the looks of it is a track suit which are often made from polyester which is a artificial thread and as such is another piece of evidence.
(On the topic of the plastic bag with food, what the hell happened to it? It is featured rather prominently in the opening and we have not seen it since the first few episode. And i don't think we ever saw him throwing it away or eating it)

It would also be highly problematic for the curse to kill him when he explains he is from the future or a different world.
As it would only take one or two curious persons to basically get him stuck in a infinite reboot.
I mean is nobody in that world curious enough to as, what is that cellphone thing actually and how does it work?
Or what are those clothes made off, I have never seen such a fabric.
Or what is that bag made off and what are those cups.

So I think there are options regarding the curse or whatever it is.
It probably is not truly sentient but more like computer AI sentient.

Regarding the doubts you said:

His clothes, the bag, etc, are not really enough. Subaru makes up the convenient lie that he's from a far away country (if I remember correctly), which is pretty much what anyone would believe anyway. It's not like his clothes or the chips are magic, and they do not really break any notions the people might have, so they'd imagine his homeland can produce that stuff. No one would go "oh wow, I've never seen food bagged like this, you must come from a different world and have a power that lets you reset time when you die!"
I think he eats the chips together with Rom?

The phone gets identified as an artefact, btw, in case you don't remember it from the first arc. Subaru does indeed try to show how he has an "amazing magic item", but Rom just tells him that it's a special artefact that, while rare and expensive, it's not like it's some super crazy important thing.

 

If he got stuck due to trying to explain his power, that'd be his own fault. Still, I very much doubt Subaru would say "well fuck you, power!" and keep trying to explain his power no matter what. Especially since the power can just hurt him, instead of killing him. So if anything, he'd be stuck in perpetual pain as people got super confused with why he kept grimacing as if in pain.

[havoc]

56 minutes ago, Jun Inoue said:

Regarding the doubts you said:

His clothes, the bag, etc, are not really enough. Subaru makes up the convenient lie that he's from a far away country (if I remember correctly), which is pretty much what anyone would believe anyway. It's not like his clothes or the chips are magic, and they do not really break any notions the people might have, so they'd imagine his homeland can produce that stuff. No one would go "oh wow, I've never seen food bagged like this, you must come from a different world and have a power that lets you reset time when you die!"
I think he eats the chips together with Rom?

The phone gets identified as an artefact, btw, in case you don't remember it from the first arc. Subaru does indeed try to show how he has an "amazing magic item", but Rom just tells him that it's a special artefact that, while rare and expensive, it's not like it's some super crazy important thing.

 

If he got stuck due to trying to explain his power, that'd be his own fault. Still, I very much doubt Subaru would say "well fuck you, power!" and keep trying to explain his power no matter what. Especially since the power can just hurt him, instead of killing him. So if anything, he'd be stuck in perpetual pain as people got super confused with why he kept grimacing as if in pain.

Who said he had to convince them he came from a alternate dimension?
A far away country with advanced technology would be enough.
All he has to do is convince them there is a reason to listen to him, he has no reason to speak the complete truth.
Like i said, all he needs to do is come up with a story that is good enough for to get them to listen to him for a while.
Even if they still have dome doubts they can be removed by proving that he speaks the truth. If they later find out his original story was not the whole truth, he has already proven that what he says is correct so it wont matter to much anymore.

 

I don't remember the phone getting identified as a artefact, all i remember is that Rom asked whether it was a artefact and that subaru went with the flow at that point. So it kind of got identified and kind of didn't.

 

[Jun Inoue]

4 minutes ago, havoc said:

Who said he had to convince them he came from a alternate dimension?
A far away country with advanced technology would be enough.
All he has to do is convince them there is a reason to listen to him, he has no reason to speak the complete truth.
Like i said, all he needs to do is come up with a story that is good enough for to get them to listen to him for a while.
Even if they still have dome doubts they can be removed by proving that he speaks the truth. If they later find out his original story was not the whole truth, he has already proven that what he says is correct so it wont matter to much anymore.

 

I don't remember the phone getting identified as a artefact, all i remember is that Rom asked whether it was a artefact and that subaru went with the flow at that point. So it kind of got identified and kind of didn't.

 

Sure, but how will he really convince them? Do remember that they somewhat listen to him due to the flow of events in the second arc, but that Subaru hasn't earned anyone's trust but Rem's, and only at the end of the second arc. We are falling here for the hero-centrist way of thinking. Since Subaru is the hero of the story, we are taking it for a given that people would be more willing to listen to him about crazy stories of him knowing what's going to happen. And what would happen if he tried that? Well, we have the third arc as an answer. People get confused, Subaru gets stressed cuz he needs to explain his power to make sense out of things, but can't explain it. And so what you propose results in something the series has already explored. Subaru gets a burst of "Will you people start doing whatever the fuck I tell you ohmygod you ignorant idiots I'm trying to save your liveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees."

Sure, his point can be proved when things do happen. But how will he convince people to get ready for that stuff? Why should they believe him? There's no reason to! Only Subaru and us the spectators know the truth of the matter.

 

Btw, the problem with the artefact is that it means Subaru cannot even imply he might have some magical shit going on. If he tries to go all *wink wink nudge nudge* on the matter, people will just do like Rom and assume that he somehow got an artefact. And since his power limits what explanations he can give, he'd be forced to go with the flow.

The whole "can't explain about my power" thing is pretty much iron-clad in the series. People are trying to point it out as a flaw on Subaru's actions, but there really isn't much of a way Subaru can tell anyone he has the reset by death power.

[havoc]

19 minutes ago, Jun Inoue said:

Sure, but how will he really convince them? Do remember that they somewhat listen to him due to the flow of events in the second arc, but that Subaru hasn't earned anyone's trust but Rem's, and only at the end of the second arc. We are falling here for the hero-centrist way of thinking. Since Subaru is the hero of the story, we are taking it for a given that people would be more willing to listen to him about crazy stories of him knowing what's going to happen. And what would happen if he tried that? Well, we have the third arc as an answer. People get confused, Subaru gets stressed cuz he needs to explain his power to make sense out of things, but can't explain it. And so what you propose results in something the series has already explored. Subaru gets a burst of "Will you people start doing whatever the fuck I tell you ohmygod you ignorant idiots I'm trying to save your liveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees."

Sure, his point can be proved when things do happen. But how will he convince people to get ready for that stuff? Why should they believe him? There's no reason to! Only Subaru and us the spectators know the truth of the matter.

 

Btw, the problem with the artefact is that it means Subaru cannot even imply he might have some magical shit going on. If he tries to go all *wink wink nudge nudge* on the matter, people will just do like Rom and assume that he somehow got an artefact. And since his power limits what explanations he can give, he'd be forced to go with the flow.

The whole "can't explain about my power" thing is pretty much iron-clad in the series. People are trying to point it out as a flaw on Subaru's actions, but there really isn't much of a way Subaru can tell anyone he has the reset by death power.

He does not need to convince them completely only string together a story good enough that they will choose to be safe rather then sorry.
Once events unfold the can then slowly earn their trust by rinsing and repeating.

And he really stands nothing to gain by explaining his powers, there is no one who will believe such a story. He would be far better off explaining his fore knowledge by pretending to come from the future, a distant country or a alternate dimension. Seeing as there is quite a lot of magic in that world it would be more believable and more importantly he stands to gain a lot from it, not necessarily in sympathy or trust but in language and writing and other necessary skills. Also explaining before he had earned the trust from at least two persons or one very important person is senseless because no one would believe him if he did.
First make them suspect something is going on and then explain.

And the sad thing is he had the trust of Emilia basically handed to him on a golden platter in the first arc and the screwed it up, by not letting her save him from the three stooges.

[Jun Inoue]

5 minutes ago, havoc said:

He does not need to convince them completely only string together a story good enough that they will choose to be safe rather then sorry.
Once events unfold the can then slowly earn their trust by rinsing and repeating.

And he really stands nothing to gain by explaining his powers, there is no one who will believe such a story. He would be far better off explaining his fore knowledge by pretending to come from the future, a distant country or a alternate dimension. Seeing as there is quite a lot of magic in that world it would be more believable and more importantly he stands to gain a lot from it, not necessarily in sympathy or trust but in language and writing and other necessary skills. Also explaining before he had earned the trust from at least two persons or one very important person is senseless because no one would believe him if he did.
First make them suspect something is going on and then explain.

And the sad thing is he had the trust of Emilia basically handed to him on a golden platter in the first arc and the screwed it up, by not letting her save him from the three stooges.

Well, most of that can be explained why Subaru being nothing but just human, and making mistakes.

Apart from this, he didn't need to go so far at first. In the end, who would just expect shit to turn south so fast? Especially since we know Subaru was getting really hard over his head and falling into moral and psychological problems by the end of the second arc. And, when it would had been most useful to explain all of that, all his mistakes and errors came down on him and he was forced to face the music, and the reality of who he was and what he had been doing.

 

Why do I consider him and the series so human? Because of all of this. We are discussing a lot but, in the end, the most important and central theme we need to remember is that Subaru is just a random youth who got pulled into a different world out of nowhere, and that he was pretty much a walking failure before. Not only does he not have our vantage point in discussion and observation, but he also was, since the very first minute of the anime, a deeply flawed individual.

[havoc]

55 minutes ago, Jun Inoue said:

Well, most of that can be explained why Subaru being nothing but just human, and making mistakes.

Apart from this, he didn't need to go so far at first. In the end, who would just expect shit to turn south so fast? Especially since we know Subaru was getting really hard over his head and falling into moral and psychological problems by the end of the second arc. And, when it would had been most useful to explain all of that, all his mistakes and errors came down on him and he was forced to face the music, and the reality of who he was and what he had been doing.

 

Why do I consider him and the series so human? Because of all of this. We are discussing a lot but, in the end, the most important and central theme we need to remember is that Subaru is just a random youth who got pulled into a different world out of nowhere, and that he was pretty much a walking failure before. Not only does he not have our vantage point in discussion and observation, but he also was, since the very first minute of the anime, a deeply flawed individual.

Making mistakes is indeed very human, except his mistakes were easily avoidable if he just stopped, paused, took a deep breath and thought about what the fuck he was actually doing.

And another problem with Subaru i have, is that he is portrayed as some random youth when clearly he is not.
He is a NEET and a utter failure, that is not your yoe average youth.
Now this is more a problem with anime in general yoe average characters done right are very and i mean very rare.
Anime male leads ten to be either utter incompetent, geniuses or not incompetent but dense as uranium or clumsy as all hell.

He would be average if he was your average student studying for his chemistry, biology, programming, mechanical engineering bachelor or something similar. (any decent respectable study, dont need no hippie hippie shake)
And that does not mean he has to be socially competent in order to do any of those things just have a sense of responsibility.
Heck I'm socially awkward and pretty bad to, but i managed to get my bachelor in chemistry.

 

About the only two examples of decent yoe average characters getting into something similar would be Rock from black lagoon and Linn Jinto from banner of the stars.
Granted the situation Linn Jinto was in from his youth was not exactly yoe average but his character is.
He is described by the book as follows,
this Linn Jinto isn't that bad of a guy. He is not a great hero, nor a cruel villain.
No, he is more like a comet hurling it's way trough space with no control over its destination, blazing from its proximity to a fixed star, sometimes pulled by the gravitational fields of particularly malevolent planets.

So he basically has no control what so ever, but has come to terms with his situation .
This is something Subaru has never done until episode 18 and he should have and could have done by the end of the second arc. After all he knew everything he knows now and has had the time to come to a understanding.
 

[Kenshin_sama]

25 minutes ago, havoc said:

Making mistakes is indeed very human, except his mistakes were easily avoidable if he just stopped, paused, took a deep breath and thought about what the fuck he was actually doing.

Man, you sound just like my squad leader.

From personal experience, I'd like to say that I could never do what you just mentioned until I started getting mental health therapy. It's not easy dealing with anxiety issues, especially when if it escalates to PTSD. I started having that problem after joining the military, and let me tell you, Subaru is handling his issues way better than I did, lol. It's seriously hard to think about your actions when you're under so much pressure, especially when you're not taught how to think during your school years (which I can reasonably assume is his case as well). I'm much better off than I use to be, but only because I've been able to alienate myself from everything that was stressing me out with the help of other people. Subaru is very lucky to have Rem too; I didn't have anyone helping me with my anxiety at all (my squad hated me) while I was enlisted, and it was only after I was discharged for poor mental health that I started getting support from my family and psychologists. Sometimes that's what it takes to pull yourself together and start thinking about your actions more carefully.

Here, check this out: How anxiety scrambles your brain and makes it hard to learn

[Jun Inoue]

1 hour ago, havoc said:

Making mistakes is indeed very human, except his mistakes were easily avoidable if he just stopped, paused, took a deep breath and thought about what the fuck he was actually doing.

And another problem with Subaru i have, is that he is portrayed as some random youth when clearly he is not.
He is a NEET and a utter failure, that is not your yoe average youth.
Now this is more a problem with anime in general yoe average characters done right are very and i mean very rare.
Anime male leads ten to be either utter incompetent, geniuses or not incompetent but dense as uranium or clumsy as all hell.

He would be average if he was your average student studying for his chemistry, biology, programming, mechanical engineering bachelor or something similar. (any decent respectable study, dont need no hippie hippie shake)
And that does not mean he has to be socially competent in order to do any of those things just have a sense of responsibility.
Heck I'm socially awkward and pretty bad to, but i managed to get my bachelor in chemistry.

 

About the only two examples of decent yoe average characters getting into something similar would be Rock from black lagoon and Linn Jinto from banner of the stars.
Granted the situation Linn Jinto was in from his youth was not exactly yoe average but his character is.
He is described by the book as follows,
this Linn Jinto isn't that bad of a guy. He is not a great hero, nor a cruel villain.
No, he is more like a comet hurling it's way trough space with no control over its destination, blazing from its proximity to a fixed star, sometimes pulled by the gravitational fields of particularly malevolent planets.

So he basically has no control what so ever, but has come to terms with his situation .
This is something Subaru has never done until episode 18 and he should have and could have done by the end of the second arc. After all he knew everything he knows now and has had the time to come to a understanding.
 

Subaru is never portrayed as an average youth, though. Since very early on we know that he's a failure, which is not that very average-ish.

Also, as Kenshin wrote in some degree, people keep making the mistake of being overly rational. To understand Subaru has his actions/thought process, we need to realise that every arc has been extremely stressful. In the first arc, he got murdered. How does one cope with that? He gets killed a couple times!

In the second one, he tries for the very first time in years, or maybe even ever, to form meaningful connections with other people, and those efforts are "betrayed" by the circumstances, with Rem killing him cuz no matter what he tries she doesn't trust him (add this so his already present anxiety and social problems, and you get the mental breakdown he suffered). Then he pushes himself so hard he collapses and has to commit suicide to start yet again.

And, well, in the third arc... I don't even need to say much, do I? All of the stuff and baggage he had been carrying with him exploded. He had to pay for his mistakes and broken line of thought all at once, and then he was on to an incredibly messed up arc of a couple days window to save Lia from shit-crazy cultists that are going to murder everything Subaru knows and appreciates, creating a gore-fest of corpses and murder.

 

Put all those things, alone or together, then do wonder if the criticisms on Subaru's mistakes being so easy to avoid do really make sense. If Subaru was one of those nonsensical, unrealistic MCs we keep seeing in anime, then yeah, we could put him to a higher standard and be baffled at his uselessness. But we can't. Subaru is a wreck, from start to end, yet people judge him as if he was a hero, refusing to solve stuff just "because", even though there's a very solid development thorough the whole series of why and how does Subaru get so messed up, conceited and stuck up on his apparent-yet-fake awesomeness.

He couldn't have calmed down and assess the situation at the end of the second arc, precisely because that was the peak time when he felt like the hero of his story. He gained real trust from the people around him, Lia "owed" him yet again, and he had saved basically everyone around him. Again, couple that with the fact that Subaru is socially broken, and you get someone who really, really wishes to be the hero of a story, instead of going "ok, for the first time in my whole life, I have people who like me and depend on me, and I'm on the path of awesomeness... better take a while to humble myself lest this go to my head!"
We really need to stop judging Subaru as if he was a normal guy who mysteriously broke down half-way in the series. He was a ticking bomb since the start.

[havoc]

17 minutes ago, Kenshin_sama said:

Man, you sound just like my squad leader.

From personal experience, I'd like to say that I could never do what you just mentioned until I started getting mental health therapy. It's not easy dealing with anxiety issues, especially when if it escalates to PTSD. I started having that problem after joining the military, and let me tell you, Subaru is handling his issues way better than I did, lol. It's seriously hard to think about your actions when you're under so much pressure, especially when you're not taught how to think during your school years (which I can reasonably assume is his case as well). I'm much better off than I use to be, but only because I've been able to alienate myself from everything that was stressing me out with the help of other people. Subaru is very lucky to have Rem too; I didn't have anyone helping me with my anxiety at all (my squad hated me) while I was enlisted, and it was only after I was discharged for poor mental health that I started getting support from my family and psychologists. Sometimes that's what it takes to pull yourself together and start thinking about your actions more carefully.

Here, check this out: How anxiety scrambles your brain and makes it hard to learn

Not even going to argue with this :).

My education probably also has a lot to do with it, you get learned to think in a certain way. (Well drilled in is a better way to describe it)
When you don't understand something its not scary, its interesting.
Look at things from a outsiders perspective, after all a outsider also has to understand your thesis. (to a certain degree anyway)
And there is no such things as a problem, only a challenge and a solution.
You learn to think twice before you do something, so that shit does not hit the fan. (Warning, does not always works as advertised, results may vary)
You learn to remain calm when shit does hit the fan, and trust me it does. (Good example was a class mate you tipped over a 1 litre beaker with used chromic acid, i worked in the same fume hood and was luckily already done with my experiment) (clean up was not funny)
You learn to slow down when you notice you start working to fast due to haste in order to prevent mistakes, better to be slightly late than way to late because you had to start over from scratch)
And above all you learn that it is better to be lazy than hard working, as a lazy scientist is a good scientist. (still need to work hard when necessary)

And i have worked with things take scare the shit out of me, PAK's, chromic acid, and a boat load of hydrofluoric acid.
And i have been genuinly scared of working with HF, and carrying 25 litre jerry cans around always made me feel uneasy as did pumping it over into a 5 litre one.
But it has to be done and so long as you think before you act things are not likely to go wrong.

So my education probably has a lot to do with how i see things these days, and why character like Subaru piss me off so much.

[Jun Inoue]

24 minutes ago, havoc said:

Not even going to argue with this :).

My education probably also has a lot to do with it, you get learned to think in a certain way. (Well drilled in is a better way to describe it)
When you don't understand something its not scary, its interesting.
Look at things from a outsiders perspective, after all a outsider also has to understand your thesis. (to a certain degree anyway)
And there is no such things as a problem, only a challenge and a solution.
You learn to think twice before you do something, so that shit does not hit the fan. (Warning, does not always works as advertised, results may vary)
You learn to remain calm when shit does hit the fan, and trust me it does. (Good example was a class mate you tipped over a 1 litre beaker with used chromic acid, i worked in the same fume hood and was luckily already done with my experiment) (clean up was not funny)
You learn to slow down when you notice you start working to fast due to haste in order to prevent mistakes, better to be slightly late than way to late because you had to start over from scratch)
And above all you learn that it is better to be lazy than hard working, as a lazy scientist is a good scientist. (still need to work hard when necessary)

And i have worked with things take scare the shit out of me, PAK's, chromic acid, and a boat load of hydrofluoric acid.
And i have been genuinly scared of working with HF, and carrying 25 litre jerry cans around always made me feel uneasy as did pumping it over into a 5 litre one.
But it has to be done and so long as you think before you act things are not likely to go wrong.

So my education probably has a lot to do with how i see things these days, and why character like Subaru piss me off so much.

I'd say that the critical difference is between fear and terror. You were scared by those things, but not truly terrified of them.

Apart from the recurrent topic about Subaru not being precisely the healthiest of minds out there. It's very clear that Subaru is a very severe criticism to NEETs by the author.

[Barktooth]

So this thread is now Re:Zero 2016 anime discussion?

I basically agree with Jun on everything. 18th episode was especially good at explaining how Subaru got so conceited after the first two arcs, but in fact wasn't really a hero. (well, except to Rem. Also that rejection was pretty brutal, even though I'm an Emilia fan xD)

[Jun Inoue]

1 hour ago, Barktooth said:

So this thread is now Re:Zero 2016 anime discussion?

I basically agree with Jun on everything. 18th episode was especially good at explaining how Subaru got so conceited after the first two arcs, but in fact wasn't really a hero. (well, except to Rem. Also that rejection was pretty brutal, even though I'm an Emilia fan xD)

Music to my ears 

And, well, Re:Zero brings A LOT of potential discussion to the table, while the rest of the shows are not that prone to give room for real discussion.

[havoc]

Planetarian episode 5, the feels.
Dispite having read the and knowing what was going to happen vn it still hit hard.

I even kind of hoped they would go for a alternative end, and possibly expand on the story and the world.
The world seems quite interesting after al, and a travelling planetarium would give plenty of time to explore it.

[ittaku]

6 hours ago, havoc said:

Planetarian episode 5, the feels.
Dispite having read the and knowing what was going to happen vn it still hit hard.

I even kind of hoped they would go for a alternative end, and possibly expand on the story and the world.
The world seems quite interesting after al, and a travelling planetarium would give plenty of time to explore it.

It definitely had impact, but what hit me most was

Spoiler

The size of her memory card.

 

[havoc]

4 hours ago, ittaku said:

It definitely had impact, but what hit me most was

  Hide contents

The size of her memory card.

 

loz, that to 128 exabyte......GET ME ONE OF THOSE PLEASE.