The fun in grinding

[Narcosis]

We're talking about proper content balance. Modern mmo's are a laugh. Suprisingly, I enjoyed the grind in L2, but was it really because I loved it from the bottom of my heart? I propably liked it, because we had nothing else at that time and age; on the other hand, that grind was actually justified by the game's design - L2 was a sandbox defined only by a small set of rules imposed by the game and it's engine, while players actually decided what's important, and what's not. Yet, don't get me wrong, when I'm saying it's bad when games become a second job - only badly designed games sell themselves as content-filled, while in reality they have nothing to offer except for color variety of the same exact thing, over and over again.

Today's mmorpg's are the exact opposite, yet it didn't made them better. That "instant gratification" are years of casual players complaining about games, which weren't really as much of a second job, as requiring actual "effort" to get somewhere from point A to point B; crude, nevertheless rewarding. Modern mmorpg's just hand out everything to players for free and propose even more additional perks for their money. You have three types of games nowadays - those, where you literally buy yourself into the top (PW), those with boosts that help you get to the top quicker while maintaining fair player competivity (Survarium) and those, that live off purely from the fanservice (TERA).

Mmorpg's were always about devoting your free time to live that second life, but it's propably time to move on from the concept of "having to devote that time, because you have to grind a million goblins to craft a single piece of gear".

Don't try to justify bad game design. Bad game design is bad game design. Period.

[Jade]

Yeahhh....depend on what kind of grind we're talking about actually.

If its grind in increasing character stats or something like that then I kinda enjoyed it and have no problem with it.

The one that i have problem is the grind for that particular item for that particular weapon. Now that the kind of grind I'm annoyed with

[Rose]

Honestly, Ragnarok Online is the only game where I ever really liked grinding. It was fun and allowed me to try my best looking for the most efficient method/area/etc. There's this article called: "Why was Ragnarok Online so Fun?", written by Ramona Smith. I think she did an amazing job explaining how they managed to make grinding an enjoyable feature rather than something bothersome. Just jump to page 8 (Gameplay) and read it from there if you just want to know about the grinding part, though I'd recommend reading it all if you're a fan of RO.

Link: https://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/227579314?access_key=key-Mz8vG3CEswOg4GzLretp&allow_share=true&escape=false&view_mode=scroll

[CeruleanGamer]

Amazing points on that article especially the drop rates. My days of Ragnarok were spent with specific goals in mind every single day, not just wandering random dungeons and hunting thousands of monsters and hoping for something good to drop unlike most MMOs nowadays. For example, in RO if I wanted a Raydric Card, all I need to do is go to Glast Heim, go grind Raydrics and work my numbers, and if I find a card, I keep it and when I find another one, I can sell it to the market for loads of cash. Done, that's all I need to fucking worry about... I don't need to worry about other monsters and all this other garbage and focus on the one specific monster I want to hunt. 

The class and stat system are also wonderful. You can run all sorts of builds in RO and not just these beefy ass characters that are overdependent on equipment to function like most MMOs. You can run a complete STR/AGI speed demon Assassin or a bulky VIT/INT Support Crusader and there's diversity throughout. There is a chance you can mess up your stat builds but it's a learning process and you become more knowledgeable about the game that way. 

Yeah Ragnarok Online will be the first and last MMORPG I'd play. The current MMOs nowadays are fanservicing you with anime girls and mostly pay2win. I doubt Tree of Savior can top what Ragnarok Online has accomplished unless they bring back the entire RO development team together. 

[Salurian]

It depends on the grind we're talking about.  I dislike the long drawn out grind of MMOs, but can at least tolerate it if I have podcasts to listen to or Netflix to watch as I grind.

Also, I find it hilarious when people complain about free to play games being pay to win, and then refuse to play subscription based MMOs.  One way or the other the company needs money to continue to generate new content to keep the player base in game and active.  For free to play games, that comes down to vanity items and pay to win items, with pay to win generally making more money because people are lazy.  Subscription services at least are up front where they are charging you and everyone else the same amount.

 

On the other hand, when it is the grind of 'learning to win' I have no problem at all failing over and over again until I beat whatever it is.  Case in point would be a lot of old school RPGs and games.  For more recent examples, the Dark Souls series.  Even if I have yet to actually finish a Souls game (for some reason I keep losing interest 3/4 of the way through after I hit a certain tier of power).

[CeruleanGamer]

Pay2win can give you a slight advantage but nowhere near as someone who plays 3-4x longer than a pay2win player. Experience is still an important factor.

[Dokken]

I usually like to; grind only if it feels rewarding, like if there's something to look forward to if I grind. I also grind with music in the background to occupy myself.

Exactly the same.

[Zophar]

When I hear people talk about grinding in games, my mind immediately goes to free to play games like World of Tanks, which I used to spend a decent bit of time playing before getting sick of the time investment needed in order to make any significant amount of progress through the various tank lines. Going from a tier one to tier ten tank down a single vehicle line (of which there are a couple dozen) typically involves upwards of 1,500 games played, with a high chance that more than a few of those games will be spent using vehicles that aren't quite to your liking, but that are necessary to get through in order to move on to the next ranked tank in that particular line. Given that most folks go down several vehicle lines at once for the sake of variety, and you're looking at a fairly epic number of matches needed in order to move on up, unless you're open to spending money for XP boosts and/or currency packs.

Bit of a pain, in my opinion.

I think the only games I've played in which I actually kind of like grinding would be (as some others have mentioned before) the Disgaea games - though depending on how you approach those games, it doesn't even necessarily feel like you're grinding at all. In my case I typically 'grind' my characters up by running through the Item World and seeing how far I can go in it by taking advantage of beneficial geo tiles and the pickup/throw mechanics. It makes it seem less like a grind and more like an endurance challenge, all the while keeping an eye out for advantageous circumstances to gain a ton of levels. Invulnerability panels on a map with enemies that are a couple hundred levels higher than you are? Yes plz.

Not really the most efficient way to do it I imagine, but hey - it's fun.

Beyond that, when it comes to unpleasant grinding in single player games, I confess to having nothing at all against cheating to bypass the grinding. Same with JRPGs with boring battle systems and lots of random battles.