Saya No Uta:Extended Thoughts and Questions (SPOILERS)

[Okami]

Oh, so now subjectivity is being taken into account. Well then. So your approach isn't all that objective.

 

And no, you didn't just stated the obvious. Let me remind you that beauty is nothing but pleasant sensorial perception and applies to all five senses at all times. To say appearances are necessarily less important than intellectual or physical prowess is to say the virtuoso is always the best of musicians. It's true we as people have developed the moral sense that paying attention to one's intellect is more important than to one's physical appearance, but that's not what we always do, now is it?

 

Perception, you see, is framed, nuanced. You can't dismiss what people value like this. You aren't stating the obvious.

 

I don't know what had you misunderstand but you did something, my approach is objective, when I said from a human perspective I was referring that people should look at it more objectively and not only from human perspective.

 

I am not dismissing what people value I am simply stating that those who do value appearance more then intellect are idiots and that in itself is or at least should be obvious.

[Funnerific]

So assuming the ruman race "ascends" to the level of Saya's. What will the society be like? What about the government?

 

Okay they have vastly superior intelligence compared to humans. What about each other? We have two possibilities:

 

1) The nature of society is retained - there will be disputes, except now it won't be between relatively harmless humans but overpowered monsters that might not die from a nuke if it doesn't hit them directly in the head. Remember that the planet we live on won't change from this "ascension".

 

2) Everyone is equal. There you have an extremely boring world with no talents, no art, no creativity, just a boring life with no colours - a utopia gone wrong.

 

------------------------------------------

 

There's another point to make. Remember how Yoh didn't voice any complaints to Fuminori and Saya, but when Kouji finds her she says she's always in pain? Now, Saya was originally a monster, but if you want to turn the whole humanity into these things... well, you get the idea.

[Okami]

So assuming the ruman race "ascends" to the level of Saya's. What will the society be like? What about the government?

 

Okay they have vastly superior intelligence compared to humans. What about each other? We have two possibilities:

 

1) The nature of society is retained - there will be disputes, except now it won't be between relatively harmless humans but overpowered monsters that might not die from a nuke if it doesn't hit them directly in the head. Remember that the planet we live on won't change from this "ascension".

 

2) Everyone is equal. There you have an extremely boring world with no talents, no art, no creativity, just a boring life with no colours - a utopia gone wrong.

 

------------------------------------------

 

There's another point to make. Remember how Yoh didn't voice any complaints to Fuminori and Saya, but when Kouji finds her she says she's always in pain? Now, Saya was originally a monster, but if you want to turn the whole humanity into these things... well, you get the idea.

 

Change of government, society  and such things are trivial in this matter if anything they will become superior too, superior race superior society.

 

Witch such intelligence we would find far greater things then those we have now, so it won't be boring colorless world but far better world. If anything world as it is now is boring.

 

And You was always in pain because she was an experiment and Saya's enemy so, you get it?

 

 

But you just said seeing Saya the way she is depends on whether you have human or Saya's race's subjectivity, which either makes any objetive approach impossible or denies you the possibility to claim one is superior to the other. Pick your poison.

 

In any case, Fuminori seeing Saya as a cute girl and everything else as gore is more about us players than about Fuminori himself - for all that matters, they could have said Fuminori sees Saya the way everyone else does, but just had his brain uderstand such sight the way everyone else would understand the sight of a cute girl. The fact that he sees a cute girl is there so that we can relate to him, connect to him. Therefore whichever point we make about this "is-the-color-I-see-the-same-color-you-see" problem is moot. The reason things in Saya no Uta were made the way they were made is completely different and has nothing to do with our debate.

 

Oh, and no, it isn't obvious in any way. Not everyone is a technocrat, you know. Not everyone thinks reason is what makes humans human. Not everyone values intellectual pleasure as much as sensorial pleasure. And I don't know why they should.

 

It doesn't make objective approach impossible as if you are intelligent enough as you should be in order to understand this VN you should be able to look beyond subjective race point of view.

 

But your last steitments "And I don't know why they should." and "Oh, and no, it isn't obvious in any way." clearly shows that you yourself are not. And your statement "The reason things in Saya no Uta were made the way they were made is completely different and has nothing to do with our debate."  shows how little you had understated a story.

 

Sorry if I sounded rude but I have no other way of putting it.

[Funnerific]

Change of government, society  and such things are trivial in this matter if anything they will become superior too, superior race superior society.

Smells of fascism. Look what happened to those guys.

Witch such intelligence we would find far greater things then those we have now, so it won't be boring colorless world but far better world. If anything world as it is now is boring.

That is awfully subjective. The world as it stands now has plenty of things a lot of people including me find interesting and beautiful, the fact that you can't see past the front page is nothing but your own flaw.

I, for one, find nature utterly boring, but there's a ton of people I'm sure would claim it's "only because I don't understand it"

And You was always in pain because she was an experiment and Saya's enemy so, you get it?

Right, so a harmless girl who was obedient even before the change is now an enemy of a powerful creature? Apparently Saya is a monster in more ways than one, bringing suffering to people for no reason at all. She even raped her, does this count as xenophilia? Ah, right, this is only bad from a human's perspective, we're looking for a superior world here.

[Okami]

You didn't sound rude. You sounded desperate.

 

How can I not be desperate when I am trying to explain complicated matters to a simple narrow minded person who can't even understand obvious stuff that even children should understand.

 

 

Smells of fascism. Look what happened to those guys.

That is awfully subjective. The world as it stands now has plenty of things a lot of people including me find interesting and beautiful, the fact that you can't see past the front page is nothing but your own flaw.

I, for one, find nature utterly boring, but there's a ton of people I'm sure would claim it's "only because I don't understand it"

Right, so a harmless girl who was obedient even before the change is now an enemy of a powerful creature? Apparently Saya is a monster in more ways than one, bringing suffering to people for no reason at all. She even raped her, does this count as xenophilia? Ah, right, this is only bad from a human's perspective, we're looking for a superior world here.

 

So changes are fascism?

 

And even if you like the world as it is now that doesn't mean that it can't become better.

 

And yea she was her enemy because she stick her nose where it doesn't belong, and who wouldn't want to torture their enemies?

[Vokoca]

How can I not be desperate when I am trying to explain complicated matters to a simple narrow minded person who can't even understand obvious stuff that even children should understand.

This is amazing. Here, have a pin.

[Okami]

You've just reached number 38 from Schopenhauer's 38 stratagems.

 

But go ahead, it's amusing to see how desperate you can get without actually providing any points in favour of your beliefs.

 

Oh but I am not trowing personal insults it's you yourself the one who shown level of your intelligence by reviling that you are in support of "apprentice more important then iteligence" and it is obvious that person who sad that is pure example of idiocy witch is obvious to anyone who know how much is 1 and 1. I myself just given up on trying to explain things to idiots. I said what I had to say and I finished my discussion with people who own a thing called brain before you shown up anyway.  I don't care anymore, your arguments are extremely week and repetitive anyway.

[SanadaShadow]

It's surprising how the pot can call the kettle black. It seems completely unaware that it is, in fact, worse.

[Flutterz]

It's surprising how the pot can call the kettle black. It seems completely unaware that it is, in fact, worse.

I've found that it's impossible to argue with a person who talks but doesn't listen, and insults people but gets appalled if you even suggest his grammar is bad.

[SanadaShadow]

Thank you, O Platitudinous Prestigitator, for suporting me.

[Guest]

Edit : Nevermind

[SanadaShadow]

We're less mad and more enjoying this argument. Or at least I am.

[Rust]

Oh but I am not trowing personal insults it's you yourself the one who shown level of your intelligence by reviling that you are in support of "apprentice more important then iteligence" and it is obvious that person who sad that is pure example of idiocy witch is obvious to anyone who know how much is 1 and 1. I myself just given up on trying to explain things to idiots. I said what I had to say and I finished my discussion with people who own a thing called brain before you shown up anyway.  I don't care anymore, your arguments are extremely week and repetitive anyway.

 

I think calling people idiots is already categorized as personal insult.

[Down]

Okay, not answering to insults and troll is a good call, but please don't spam the thread either and don't answer with other insults.

[SanadaShadow]

Okay, back to the topic at hand: Saya may be superior to a small group of humans, but we don't know just how much she can withstand. For one thing, nobody's tried bombing her, or incinerating her, or locking her in an airtight space. For all we know, she can withstand a few bullets and an axe. If an army shot at her collectively, might she actually die? She shows pain from being hit, but she gives her seed to the world before fading away. She might have reappeared, or she might have died from the battle, or she might have passed away from using her power to turn humanity.

[Xypers]

:|

Edited December 2, 2018 by Xypers

[SanadaShadow]

Ah, you have no idea how refreshing intellectual argument is to me.

 

I'm not saying she isn't superior. I'm trying to find out just how superior she is. In a way, cockroaches can be considered superior to humans, because nuclear war is coming, it's inevitable with current circumstances. They'll be the ones to survive longest, not us. And as for ants, a collective being can overpower most anything. We, as humans, stand divided, constantly wresting power form each other. The ants follow their queen faithfully, never second-guessing. If you say this isn't superior to humanity in at least some way, you are quite narrow-minded, my friend.

 

We don't know if it's possible to teach emotion. So far, all we know is that people have emotion. Maybe Saya had emotion built-in, but locked away. She slowly tried to change into human so as to be able to interact with them. She was tired of being alone. And I doubt even the smartest man on Earth could get out of being surrounded by an army with orders to kill. Plus, since she based it all off of human understanding, Saya is going to start with humanity's tactics.

 

Let me ask you: why do people accomplish things? Is it for innovation? For perspective? For understanding? No. Most do it because they want to be loved. Since Saya learned from humans, it would make sense that she wanted it too. She wouldn't just do random things without benefit to her. Especially because she's so smart.

 

She seems ugly to us? What? Seriously? Dude, we wouldn't be having this conversation if Saya was so ugly. Beauty is on the inside, and talking like this reveals the inner workings of all of you, because you feel you won't be judged as harshly, and it won't connect to your real life. And you may well speak truth of her inventing surrogates. By the way, that's the official term. Surrogate.

 

Hear! Hear! (Sorry for the stereotyping)

[Xypers]

:|

Edited December 2, 2018 by Xypers

[SanadaShadow]

Not gonna argue with you about insects being superior to humans as it is just plain stupid.

 

Thought we covered that when you refuse to even think about an idea, it reflects on how smart you really are. My words were "in some ways, they can be considered superior". I gave examples supporting the main idea of my thesis, and I can state why they will always be, in fact, inferior as long as humans exist. But saying "as it is just plain stupid" isn't the researcher's way. It's the way of the idiotic bum who ends up with a lowly office job and never affects the community directly. STATE YOUR REASONS. EXPLAIN YOUR TRAIN OF THOUGHT. TRY TO LEARN INSTEAD OF IMMEDIATELY DENYING WHAT ISN'T TRUE YET. The fact of the matter is, if cockroaches had basic understanding, humans would be either their slaves by now or extinct.

 

As for thinking and feeling, what? Now only humans can think and feel? Not animals? Not insects? Not plants? They all show at least a basic understanding of their life. And no matter how much you try, the only way to have more feelings is to cure ASPD (Anti-Social Personality Disorder). Which is extremely rare. And I'm pretty damn sure Saya doesn't have that.

 

Also, you'd most likely become a test subject. Unless you were evading the law, or humanity in general. Humanity won't change just because they're part of the Saya family now. People will still secretly fight each other for ultimate power. Corruption will still reign supreme. If anything, we'll have bought ourselves a longer life expectancy. Probably in slavery.

 

And about that last bit... People used to enslave the blacks because they thought they were Satan-spawn. Look at us now. We laugh at them. WE FUCKING LAUGH AT THEM ALL. Within the next decade, we'll be past homophobia. People will laugh at those who used to be afraid of it. In fact, who even knows if the religions that forbid homophobia are part of the actual religion or made up by priests who simply couldn't keep up with the times? There's a ridiculous rule in a sect of Christianity banning Metal music, even though nothing even remotely like it existed at the time it was formed!

 

Believe me, if you were the only blob, you'd either be on the blob (equivalent of the run) or you'd be in government hands. Nobody would burn your house down because you're not there.

[Xypers]

:|

Edited December 2, 2018 by Xypers

[Xypers]

:|

Edited December 2, 2018 by Xypers

[SanadaShadow]

Are you trolling, though? The entire concept of Science is to be open to new ideas, and find contradictions to improve the thesis. And FYI, you were the one who brought up insects, not me.

[Xypers]

:|

Edited December 2, 2018 by Xypers

[babiker]

My poor thread, that was one day home to  a beautiful collection of different thoughts and ideas calmly and peacefully enjoying one another's differences, now fallen prey to slime-wannabe's, troll's and people who just think there right and anything else somebody say's is either stupid, idiotic or just simply wrong.

 

Listen guys, nobody has  a problem with different people wanting different things and having different conclusions  to the same event's, but can't you guys do it without badmouthing one another? If this goes on any longer, start your own thread, and call it:

 

The Super  Slime wannabe's Club (BTW IF U NO LIKE DE SLIME, U IDIOT!)

Or SSW for short

[Xypers]

:|

Edited December 2, 2018 by Xypers