Why translated VNs will never become popular

[Scorp]

14 hours ago, Rooke said:

VNs appeal to those who value graphics, sound, appreciate a good story, don’t mind playing on the PC, and don't mind forking over the price of a game. These people are mostly gamers, and yet, for gamers the lack of gameplay will always be a big negative.

So VNs straddle these two communities, at the moment not really appealing to the gamer market or the reader market. And while straddling communities can be a good thing, it's only a good thing when the product appeals to both. VNs appeal to neither, and people’s first impressions are solely negative: Gamers will never appreciate the lack of gameplay, while readers don’t value graphics and sound as much, like to read on mobile platforms, and aren’t willing to fork a premium price to pay for it.

And VNs will not become popular until they overcome this hurdle and target the correct portions of the community in the proper manner.

Rooke, is there a VN you like? Means, I totally understand your points and I also totally understand why japanese industry took that way of bloating. So I assume you do not read VNs, right?

[tymmur]

14 hours ago, Rooke said:

So VNs straddle these two communities, at the moment not really appealing to the gamer market or the reader market. And while straddling communities can be a good thing, it's only a good thing when the product appeals to both. VNs appeal to neither, and people’s first impressions are solely negative: Gamers will never appreciate the lack of gameplay, while readers don’t value graphics and sound as much, like to read on mobile platforms, and aren’t willing to fork a premium price to pay for it.

I think that is the wrong way to look at it. Just ask Apple. Over the years they have made products, which didn't match any existing markets. Sometimes it went poorly (like the Newton) and sometimes it went well and sort of created the market for the product (iTunes Store, iPhone, computers small enough to put on a table, home computers with floppy drives, CDs etc). I would say VNs are sort of the same thing. They can't really get into an existing market, but it has a chance of making a market of its own.

 

With VNs trying to create a new market, it certainly have to rely on good reputation and type. Sadly I feel like VNs suffer from what happened to the gaming industry in the 80s. Some people managed to make great games and then Wall Street went in to get easy money and released garbage. It was a disaster because great quality and garbage got mixed together. The poor quality companies died, but so did some good ones because selling a $30 game is hard when the shop has a barrel of $5 games. Even if they were of worse quality, people went for 6 games for the price of 1. There is a number of great VNs out there, but there is certainly also quite a lot of garbage, which isn't worth the money or time. Money isn't the greatest in VNs, but that haven't stopped some companies from mass releasing cheap VNs with little or no contents. While there is a market for both, it does mean that somebody plays a good VN, tells somebody else about it and the other person goes "I'm not sure about this thing. I will pick a cheaper one first to see what it is" and then the result is a dropped VN and no more VNs for that person.

 

I think the quality/price issue might be the biggest issue for VNs becoming popular. There is also the Rapelay issue, which told people what products from Japan is all about. It doesn't matter what the truth is. Whenever a VN tries to make it into the general market, people "knowing it all" warns about it because it's one of those evil things. Clearly it's much better to play a game where you shoot everybody.

[Darklord Rooke]

8 hours ago, Scorp said:

Rooke, is there a VN you like? Means, I totally understand your points and I also totally understand why japanese industry took that way of bloating. So I assume you do not read VNs, right?

I read everything. Well ... I used to read everything, but I have nowhere near the same amount of time these days. But if someone wants to be a writer, the first piece of advice given to them is to 'read everything'.

I have a few VNs I've enjoyed - Tokyo Babel, Deardrops, etc. Nothing I'll read over and over though, and most VNs I enjoy come with RPG/sim/strategy gameplay (because I usually find the story isn't strong enough to sustain my interest by itself.) 

 

7 hours ago, tymmur said:

There is also the Rapelay issue, which told people what products from Japan is all about. It doesn't matter what the truth is. Whenever a VN tries to make it into the general market, people "knowing it all" warns about it because it's one of those evil things. Clearly it's much better to play a game where you shoot everybody.

This is more an excuse than a reason. When VNs are released at a pricepoint the market deems acceptable, they can sell hundreds of thousands of copies. Nekopara 1 sold 200k, for example, which is pretty good for such a crap VN. The term 'visual novel' is used in areas of the general public as a buzzword used to describe popular Japanese adventure games, like Ace Attorney and 999. You have members of the public trying to convince people Telltale games are VNs. 

However, whenever VNs don't sell well the 'rapelay' excuse gets trotted out because it's easy and it places the blame elsewhere. I think the use of this excuse is a cop out, to be honest, a needless distraction away from the actual issues.

[tymmur]

9 minutes ago, Rooke said:

I read everything. Well ... I used to read everything, but I have nowhere near the same amount of time these days. But if someone wants to be a writer, the first piece of advice given to them is to 'read everything'.

Somehow that makes me think of Rainman reading the phonebook. So much is released that everything is unrealistic. You do have to filter somehow.

 

9 minutes ago, Rooke said:

I have a few VNs I've enjoyed - Tokyo Babel, Deardrops, etc. Nothing I'll read over and over though, and most VNs I enjoy come with RPG/sim/strategy gameplay (because I usually find the story isn't strong enough to sustain my interest by itself.) 

I'm not sure I like the combo of wanting to be a writer and losing interest in the storyline.

 

4 minutes ago, Rooke said:

However, whenever VNs don't sell well the 'rapelay' excuse gets trotted out because it's easy and it places the blame elsewhere. I think the use of this excuse is a cop out, to be honest, a needless distraction away from the actual issues.

I wasn't talking about explaining sales. I was talking about the "announcements" people make when a VN is announced in English. People who has never seen a VN and has clearly never seen the yet to be released VN in question knows everything about it and makes anti-Rapelay marketing against it. I have seen it happening multiple times. As those proclamations seems to show up again and again, they affect the public opinion and they play their role in why VNs will never become popular. It's not claims you see in the VN community, but they are present in the places where people are most likely to be exposed to VNs for the first time. It doesn't really make sense to make such claims against all age VNs on steam, but it happens. Steam would naturally never allow that, but facts will never get in the way of people who bash something for their own amusement.

 

I didn't talk about the number of sales, though I would assume that would be affected too.

[Darklord Rooke]

3 minutes ago, tymmur said:

Somehow that makes me think of Rainman reading the phonebook. So much is released that everything is unrealistic. You do have to filter somehow.

You should read everything you can grab and have time to get through. The whole purpose isn't enjoyment, the purpose is to develop your 'ear', and to recognise and think about the techniques used. What style do you like and how do people pull things off? What styles do you hate and what techniques do you want to eradicate from your tool box? What are things you should never do, or never want to do? All of this stuff you learn through reading and thinking about what you read. Once you learn to recognise bad writing, reading 'bad' stories is nice as an example of what 'not' to do. Not so useful when you're beginning though, cause if you're not at the stage where you can recognise bad writing you can pick up bad habits.

Don't filter when you choose. In fact, the advice is sometimes modified to say 'read everything outside your target genre', that is, if you want to write fantasy, read everything outside of fantasy. Also read plenty of non-fiction, because how can someone write convincingly about stuff if they don't know how things work? Bradbury famously stated he spent 10 years in the library, finally graduating when he turned 28.

But seriously, if you want to write you first should spend years reading. And also living ... but that's debatable, I suppose.

9 minutes ago, tymmur said:

I'm not sure I like the combo of wanting to be a writer and losing interest in the storyline.

*Shrugs* Most VNs are boring and written badly in English. 

10 minutes ago, tymmur said:

I wasn't talking about explaining sales. I was talking about the "announcements" people make when a VN is announced in English. People who has never seen a VN and has clearly never seen the yet to be released VN in question knows everything about it and makes anti-Rapelay marketing against it. I have seen it happening multiple times.

Probably depends which community you hang out on, I suppose. For example, I've never seen it raised in the Adventure gamer community. It really shouldn't be raised to begin with, considering Rapelay isn't at all a VN, so I'd wager it's only very mainstream/casual/stupid sites. I tend to stay away from those.

[Tyr]

5 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Most VNs are boring

I guess when you say "most VNs" you mean "most VNs translated into English". Which is a very small and biased subset of all VNs.

[Yuuko]

Just now, Tyrosyn said:

I guess when you say "most VNs" you mean "most VNs translated into English". Which is a very small and biased subset of all VNs.

Well the whole thread is about translated VNs so

[Tyr]

1 minute ago, Kiriririri said:

Well the whole thread is about translated VNs so

Implying they turn bad when they get translated. That may be the case for the "writing" but surely not for more objective elements like characters or story.
I'm sure there are plenty of VNs even Rooke with his elaborated tastes in fiction would like, but those will never get translated because they don't cater to the anime audience.

[Darklord Rooke]

What Ki(ri)^4 said. 

Most translated VNs are moe or nukige (which have little story ... and point.) Or reportedly good stuff translated badly. Or self-insert VNs with a personality devoid protagonist (which is actually a no-no in fiction writing in first person.) Or stories where character development occurs in hundreds of scenes which don't forward the plot, thus detracting from the plot. Or character development consisting of unrealistically forced drama which breaks all suspension of disbelief (good old Little Busters.) And other stuff.

There are a few I enjoy, but like all mediums the majority of stuff I don't *shrugs*. Even if I knew Japanese, I doubt I'd enjoy most VNs. There'd be more for me to enjoy, but also much more for me to hate. I'd probably end up playing all the eroge-RPG stuff instead. I remember Sanah teasing me with a pretty decent looking game the other day ...

[Yuuko]

Did I imply something with my post just that I didn't mean or am I understanding things wrong again? Well whatever, what I just wanted to say that it should be pretty obvious that he is talking about "most of the translated VNs" since the whole thread is about translated VNs and western market.

I don't even read translated VNs so I have nothing else to comment.

Edit: Can't let this pass:

5 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Most translated VNs are moe

*Most of the translated VNs that are moe are nowhere near the level some Japanese moeges reach.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Kiriririri
Fuck grammar

[tymmur]

 

15 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Don't filter when you choose. In fact, the advice is sometimes modified to say 'read everything outside your target genre', that is, if you want to write fantasy, read everything outside of fantasy. Also read plenty of non-fiction, because how can someone write convincingly about stuff if they don't know how things work?

In that case, do you want to borrow "C++11 for Programmers"? It's a great book for the target audience, non-fiction and clearly outside your target genre

 

I think you have firmly convinced me that I should never become a writer. While I get the concept of getting to know what exist, the concept of reading everything, regardless of how boring it is seems a bit extreme to me. It seems to me like the teaching approach where you get a bunch of sentences with incorrect grammar and you have to correct the grammar. It contains the fundamental flaw that you are presented with an incorrect version, but not the correct one and that involves a risk of copying the incorrect approach. Any study method, which involves the risk of learning the failure is flawed by design.

 

30 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Probably depends which community you hang out on, I suppose. For example, I've never seen it raised in the Adventure gamer community. It really shouldn't be raised to begin with, considering Rapelay isn't at all a VN, so I'd wager it's only very mainstream/casual/stupid sites. I tend to stay away from those.

I agree it makes no sense, but you seem to miss the point. It's not about what we think or know or the sites we visit frequently. It's about what is said in places where lots of people visit frequently and without any VN knowledge, they will not know any better. It is a major contributor to why VNs will have a hard time becoming popular in the general public and actual facts has nothing to do with it.

[Darklord Rooke]

26 minutes ago, tymmur said:

I think you have firmly convinced me that I should never become a writer. While I get the concept of getting to know what exist, the concept of reading everything, regardless of how boring it is seems a bit extreme to me. It seems to me like the teaching approach where you get a bunch of sentences with incorrect grammar and you have to correct the grammar. It contains the fundamental flaw that you are presented with an incorrect version, but not the correct one and that involves a risk of copying the incorrect approach. Any study method, which involves the risk of learning the failure is flawed by design.

Well, you don’t have to go crazy with it, but I will tell you that many editors can instantly spot a writer who doesn’t read.

Anything published is competent, or at least competent enough a reference that you can learn from. You aren’t getting an ‘incorrect’ vision but rather a host of writing that has passed the ‘editorial eye’ (although that’s becoming less true in modern times for various reasons.) There are no rules in writing, no ‘right or wrong’, what there is instead is an expectation that you can use language to convey a story to the audience and a host of ‘guidelines’ to guide you on the way. How do you create an impact with your words? How do you develop character? Pace a novel? Develop tension? Develop atmosphere? You can’t be told these things, rather you learn by reading. Going by the rule that anything published is at least competent to some degree, heading to the library you observe a thousand different writers doing things a thousand different ways. You start developing preferences, and getting an understanding of how things should sound.

There is a chance you can pick up bad habits, but a writer should also try and join a writing group with a qualified writer on board.

Otherwise there is no hidden formula, no ‘text book’ to tell you what is ‘right’ or what is ‘wrong’. You succeed if you can weave your words into an enticing image for the reader, which can be done a thousand million ways (a billion by US terminology, or a milliard by the old, correct usage.) Pity then that most beginner writers make the same mistakes, which wouldn’t happen if they read more. Because reading competent writers of the past is the only way a beginner writer will learn, there is no short cut or easy way here. 

And yes, I have read parts of C++. Not Java though, and I will add the caveat that I read it well over a decade ago.

[Black Sands Entertainment]

in b4 you perfectly described why I do what I do @Rooke