Why translated VNs will never become popular

[Darklord Rooke]

So I was in the Tokyo Babel thread reading comments about how 'the gaming press doesn't understand VNs' and that inspired me to make this little post.

Visual Novels are pieces of entertainment one reads, and yet I can buy and read 10 books for the price of one VN, all thoroughly enjoyable and probably better written in English. I know people like to quote the ’50 hour’ thing, but that’s not accurate. The voice acting, the slow appearance of the text, and the small text box all serve to slow the reader down, which while being annoying also serves to bloat the 'number of hours' it takes to read. VNs are large, but (on average) not nearly as large as the ‘number of hours’ suggests. So people can 'scrap' the hours of entertainment thing. For readers, the visuals and sound aren't necessary, and definitely don't justify the (in their mind) exorbitant price.

VNs appeal to those who value graphics, sound, appreciate a good story, don’t mind playing on the PC, and don't mind forking over the price of a game. These people are mostly gamers, and yet, for gamers the lack of gameplay will always be a big negative.

So VNs straddle these two communities, at the moment not really appealing to the gamer market or the reader market. And while straddling communities can be a good thing, it's only a good thing when the product appeals to both. VNs appeal to neither, and people’s first impressions are solely negative: Gamers will never appreciate the lack of gameplay, while readers don’t value graphics and sound as much, like to read on mobile platforms, and aren’t willing to fork a premium price to pay for it.

And VNs will not become popular until they overcome this hurdle and target the correct portions of the community in the proper manner.

[Kaguya]

I feel like it appeals to the otaku crowd who watch animu much more than it does for either readers or gamers, tbh. 

[Eclipsed]

Hiiii

So what's the best way to tackle this problem professor Rooke?

[Nerathim]

Quote

I can buy and read 10 books for the price of one VN,

I wonder where you can get books for such low price

[Darklord Rooke]

6 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

I feel like it appeals to the otaku crowd who watch animu much more than it does for either readers or gamers, tbh. 

Anime watchers rarely read ... anything other than manga or really light stuff anyway  

6 minutes ago, Eclipsed said:

Hiiii

So what's the best way to tackle this problem professor Rooke?

I have my own theory, but it seems to be unpopular so I'll keep it to myself at the moment. I'll switch to suggestion B:

Episodic content on mobile and PC platforms, sold at 5 bucks a piece. Also VNs can also no longer sustain being as big as freaking Clannad, so size will have to come down and that could be a good thing, it'll reduce the amount of bloat that goes into them for starters. Lastly, VNs need to be better at being able to be picked up and played. VNs are supposed to be books but you launch the application as though you're playing a game.

2 minutes ago, Nerathim said:

I wonder where you can get books for such low price

To be honest, a lot of self-published books contain the same sort of English and writing techniques found in translated VNs. I don't want to harp on about it, but the standard of writing in VNs is low. Also, some published ebooks sell for 5 bucks a pop.

[Suzu Fanatic]

13 minutes ago, Rooke said:

 and yet I can buy and read 10 books for the price of one VN

Wish I lived in your neck of the woods (though I can't really read traditional books anymore) - when I used to buy books the average cost was 25 -  30, but then again I always bought hardcover.

[Darklord Rooke]

1 minute ago, Suzu Fanatic said:

Wish I lived in your neck of the woods (though I can't really read traditional books anymore) - when I used to buy books the average cost was 25 -  30, but then again I always bought hardcover.

Everything's digital these days.

Also don't buy hardcover. The best quality books you can get these days are 'Trade Paperback'. Hardcovers don't use the same techniques as they did decades ago, which compromise stability. As in, they're really heavy, held together only by gum, and it'll probably fall apart at some stage. Trade Paperbacks don't have the same weight, have a quality spine which doesn't bend, and nice easy to read words.

Unless you buy a book and custom bind it yourself, of course.

[Makudomi]

Agreed. They're a niche medium of presentation for fiction that finds itself competing with all of the following on different levels:

-Books

-Video games

-Anime/Cartoons

-Films

They offer "a little of everything" (assuming we're talking about VNs and not KNs, since the latter of which sacrifices user interaction), which is exactly what a small market wants, but for the most part consumers would rather see one aspect done fantastically than all of them done passably.

[Kaguya]

10 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Anime watchers rarely read ... anything other than manga or really light stuff anyway  

Not really. I feel like most people who do like VNs are more likely to be anime fans than anything else... Plus there's the light novel crowd (who tend to be gigantic when added up - same thing with manga, really. They can get really out of hand.)  

VNs can appeal to anime watchers through anime porn and the type of romance that can't really go on TV 

It also lets you know characters before using H scenes for erotic purposes, which provides the ultimate type of erotica for some people. 

You might or might not argue that's why we're a niche and that VNs should focus on reaching other audiences... But if they stop marketing towards that niche I'll no longer have an interest in VNs, so  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

[Nerathim]

5 minutes ago, Rooke said:

To be honest, a lot of self-published books contain the same sort of English and writing techniques found in translated VNs. I don't want to harp on about it, but the standard of writing in VNs is low. Also, some published ebooks sell for 5 bucks a pop.

 

Well, you're obviously talking about prose here. And it isn't really relevant to be honest. Not only it is impossible to have an unbiased point of view on the matter but I don't want such a criteria to determine the price of a book/VN. Dostoevsky wrote like a pig, he paid no mind to repetitions and flow, so much that the first french translations of his works  actually remodeled the text so it sounds more harmonious. It later got criticized a lot because it obviously was blasphemous to read for russian speaking people. We definitely pay too much mind to "writing", by that I mean "prose", and that may not be a good thing as it tends to become a reason to despise VNs in general (I'm not talking about you at all). And it if wasn't for all that talk about prose from the most vocal personalities in the VN scene, I am sure most people would not give it so much credit.

[Suzu Fanatic]

7 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Everything's digital these days.

Also don't buy hardcover. The best quality books you can get these days are 'Trade Paperback'. Hardcovers don't use the same techniques as they did decades ago, which compromise stability. As in, they're really heavy, held together only by gum, and it'll probably fall apart at some stage. Trade Paperbacks don't have the same weight, have a quality spine which doesn't bend, and nice easy to read words.

Unless you buy a book and custom bind it yourself, of course.

Huh, Trade paperbacks sound pretty interesting - a lot of my old books (20+ years) really are showing signs of decay, even with routine care. Kind of a moot point either way though, as I get audiobooks now - the selection is garbage, but the format does have merits.

[Makudomi]

26 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

Not really. I feel like most people who do like VNs are more likely to be anime fans than anything else... Plus there's the light novel crowd (who tend to be gigantic when added up - same thing with manga, really. They can get really out of hand.)  

VNs can appeal to anime watchers through anime porn and the type of romance that can't really go on TV 

It also lets you know characters before using H scenes for erotic purposes, which provides the ultimate type of erotica for some people. 

You might or might not argue that's why we're a niche and that VNs should focus on reaching other audiences... But if they stop marketing towards that niche I'll no longer have an interest in VNs, so  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

I completely agree with this assessment and think that more VN readers are anime fans than gamers. In particular, I think the ero element is paramount to a lot of people -- I don't care for it myself, but the immersive narration style coupled with voices, art and music definitely provides a different sensual experience than someone who is simply watching two characters or people do it on screen. It makes the reader feel like they are there, or at least that's the intent (heavily evidenced by the use of first person in most eroge).

That said, I would like to mention that the reason I personally like VNs is because they are not anime, specifically. I've been gaming my whole life and, when sitting down to watch a 13~26-episode anime, usually find myself dropping out from the slow pace and lack of user interaction. I've never liked cartoons or movies, either, as I'm simply an antsy person who loves feeling semi-responsible for the events of the story. The reason that VNs as a medium are so effective for me is precisely because of their similarity to the "Choose Your Own Adventure" books of old; knowing that the story result (the route, or the ending) I've gotten is directly related to my choices in-game thoroughly immerses me. For instance, while they are closer to the adventure genre than VNs, games like Kara no Shoujo or Gyakuten Saiban appeal heavily specifically because, unlike a mystery novel/film/television series, the one in charge of solving the case is me, and the story will not progress if my deductions are incorrect or my investigation is insufficient. That kind of immersion is difficult to replicate. I seriously wish that there were more mystery games created in this medium as I think it's one of the places it thrives the most, but in the genre in general (including point-and-click games) is pretty barren nowadays...

[Darklord Rooke]

17 minutes ago, Nerathim said:

Well, you're obviously talking about prose here. And it isn't really relevant to be honest. Not only it is impossible to have an unbiased point of view on the matter but I don't want such a criteria to determine the price of a book/VN. Dostoevsky wrote like a pig, he paid no mind to repetitions and flow, so much that the first french translations of his works  actually remodeled the text so it sounds more harmonious. It later got criticized a lot because it obviously was blasphemous to read for russian speaking people. We definitely pay too much mind to "writing", by that I mean "prose", and that may not be a good thing as it tends to become a reason to despise VNs in general (I'm not talking about you at all). And it if wasn't for all that talk about prose from the most vocal personalities in the VN scene, I am sure most people would not give it so much credit.

A) No, I'm talking about all aspects of writing. Content, pacing, ... you know, let's talk pacing. Most VNs have trash pacing, compromised by including copious slice of life scenes within a story with a plot. Setting, the reuse of the high school setting is really quite telling - rule of thumb, a piece of entertainment tends to be aimed at people who are the same age as the protagonist, so if you have a young protagonist it's a story aimed at young people. Generally speaking. The content in VNs tend to impress a lot of young people, especially because they're (as a whole) fascinated with ideas and don't really care much about execution, but I don't see how the content is much to write home about, tbh. Even Gahkthun managed to set the damn thing in a school.

B) Another rule of thumb, don't compare pieces to authors who wrote their 1st drafts in publishable prose. Dostoevsky wrote in a raw manner, and his works benefited from being written in a raw manner, and some of his translators later went on to say his prose style was carefully crafted. It's extremely difficult to write something which comes off as clumsy and raw while not being actually anywhere near as clumsy as first appeared. Its rawness amplified its passion. Its rawness amplified its authenticity. In general, you (the normal public) cannot write like Dostoevsky (one of the greatest genius' in the world of literature) so don't even try. Also, EVERY writer gets criticised a lot. It's the way of things.

C) It happened in English also, but it had nothing to do with his 'ugly writing'. His works were 'localised' into 'Victorian' English (a very polite society) so it would appeal more to the Upper Class audience.

D) We don't "pay too much attention to 'writing'". A storyteller's job is to convey the story to the reader, convey the imagery to the reader in an effective manner. 'Writing' or 'prose' is the way which we achieve that. Without visuals, we create impact with words, with sentence construction, with passive or active, we create images through description, this is how the reader feels or views the story, through our words, and that is why those words are important. To say 'we pay too much attention to the writing' well ... that's how the reader experiences the story, it is thus very important. Unless you do a Telltale and go interactive movie.

[VirginSmasher]

The medium as a whole is more for anime fans. The major selling point for a lot of people is the visual aspect. If people want a story, they're more likely to lean towards purchasing books. Plus there's the whole issue of some VNs where nothing happens for hours. Hentai also can turn people off reading VNs that aren't censored.

[Nosebleed]

Tbh I agree with Kaguya, I've mostly only seen people who are into animu/mango also be into VNs. Sure there's probably a small crowd out there who don't enjoy those things and like VNs, but overall the VN world is hugely influenced by the otaku media and VN fans are typically fans of other types of said media.

I agree VNs will likely never be immensely popular, but that's unfortunately the cost of being a medium so heavily niche targeted. It doesn't mean they're doing something terrible, it's just that there isn't a massive crowd for VNs yet.

[ittaku]

Translated VNs, as others have already stated, are clearly only ever going to be of interest to otakus/anime/mangu/LN/Japanophile/hikkikomoris. It's a particular art form for a particular audience in Japan and therefore will appeal to those outside Japan who are interested in that inside Japan. It's also why the bulk of OELVNs imitate Japan storylines. The "visual" component is a strong feature in Japanese culture, making the ridiculously complex language more approachable from a young age for the natives in manga and animated form, then when they become adults they've become used to that as a component of their media. They're not books and never will be, but they offer appeal that books don't.

 

Now remind me why they actually need to be more popular outside this group? Make Japanese culture more popular outside the otaku crowd? Clearly that won't happen.  Change the medium just to increase sales, increase the popularity and keep the medium alive? Cut off your nose to spite your face and all that?

[tymmur]

1 hour ago, Rooke said:

A) No, I'm talking about all aspects of writing. Content, pacing, ... you know, let's talk pacing. Most VNs have trash pacing, compromised by including copious slice of life scenes within a story with a plot. Setting, the reuse of the high school setting is really quite telling - rule of thumb, a piece of entertainment tends to be aimed at people who are the same age as the protagonist, so if you have a young protagonist it's a story aimed at young people. Generally speaking. The content in VNs tend to impress a lot of young people, especially because they're (as a whole) fascinated with ideas and don't really care much about execution, but I don't see how the content is much to write home about, tbh. Even Gahkthun managed to set the damn thing in a school.

I disagree. If they really would make the protagonist the same as the target reader, they would have made the protagonist a 40 year old virgin, who has no idea about how to approach women. I did some thinking about the overused school theme and I came to the conclusion that it is because everybody went to school. Everybody can relate to how it is to attend school and it is a place where the genders encounter each other. We will likely never see a VN where the protagonist is an adult educated forklift operator, who works in a storage facility and has little or no contact with women. Maybe it would appeal to forklift drivers, but the vast majority of VN readers would have problems relate to the issues of the protagonist.

1 hour ago, Makudomi said:

That said, I would like to mention that the reason I personally like VNs is because they are not anime, specifically. I've been gaming my whole life and, when sitting down to watch a 13~26-episode anime, usually find myself dropping out from the slow pace and lack of user interaction. I've never liked cartoons or movies, either, as I'm simply an antsy person who loves feeling semi-responsible for the events of the story. The reason that VNs as a medium are so effective for me is precisely because of their similarity to the "Choose Your Own Adventure" books of old;

I couldn't agree more. A VN is the perfect medium to tell a story at a slow pace where it has time to provide all the details. Anime tend to skip fast past lots of details and when the whole screen is "animated", you never know if some background detail will matter later on, meaning it's easier to miss details, which turns out to be important later. It's not unusual for me to watch the same scene more than once in an anime, because paying attention to subtitles and what is displayed in the image easily makes me miss both.

 

VNs on the other hand has the pace I choose. I rarely use auto forward, meaning if I need 10% more time on a line to really get what it is saying, I click 10% later. Knowing that I can do that, I don't even have to try to "rush reading", which I think is required once in a while in anime. In fact multi line anime subtitles (lots of text) usually makes me pause to read it without rushing.

 

As for VNs vs books. I prefer VNs because it's a more complete experience. There are voices and sound effects to get you deeper into the story while music sets the mood. The text is usually good. You get one or a few lines at a time. A book requires you to pay more attention to which line you are reading. Somehow I find that distracting, particularly when moving to the next line. The text is also generally quire big, which will strain the eyes less. Last, but not least VNs have choices. The interaction is worth quite a lot.

 

I'm not sure I would compare VNs to games as VNs do not try to be games. The exception is VNs like Kamidori, which works well as a VN and at the same time is a decent RPG and to some degree some business simulation (not sure precisely how to classify the shop). Those parts melds together in a way, which makes them work great, but it does pose the question if the target audience would be VN readers or gamers.

[tymmur]

9 minutes ago, Palas said:

Yes, because that's what they are - games. They aren't supposed to be books. If your average VN sucks at being compelling as a game, using everything it has under its belt to create cunning gameplay through game-oriented visual or sound concepts (for instance, a background from which you can draw clues or get relevant pieces of information that will affect your choices later on), it's exactly because fools want to tell a story but don't care about being engaging.

 

Undertale succeeds at being a VN more than most VNs and this is a real shame. It doesn't mean, it doesn't mean at all VNs are more fit to be books. They'd suck if they were.

First of all, reading your post is quite annoying. The dark letters on while background blurs with the theme I'm using, making it quite hard to read.

 

I wondered if I should call troll due to the hard to read text and the statement that VNs are games with poor gameplay. However assuming the hard to read text is unintended, I carried on trying to read it and grasp what you are saying. I have come to the conclusion that I sort of agree, but that the same time I don't. The problem is I would classify VNs as VNs, not games and not books. Games are optimized to be games. Books are optimized to be books. VNs are optimized to be VNs. VNs can pass as a book, but aren't optimized for it and doesn't beat books for book quality. VNs can pass as games, but they aren't optimized to beat regular games in the aspects we normally use to judge games. Your post makes it sound like the problem is VNs, while I would say the problem is incorrect classification of VNs.

 

Having said that, explaining what a VN is to people, who never tried it might make it hard to make them understand what it is, which might be precisely why VNs will not be popular (hence this thread). People seeing a VN on steam might have a hard time figuring out the quality if they compare it to what else they can find on steam. I can't remember which one, but an all age VN made it into steam greenlight and the comments were like "this must be one of those rape games from Japan. We better stay clear of this one".

[Fred the Barber]

Ehh, I think both @tymmur and @Rooke are wrong about the motivation for the constant school setting. Rooke claims the target audience is in school. Tymmur basically claims the target audience was in school. I propose, instead, that the target audience wishes they were in school.

VNs are almost always going for simple entertainment, and more specifically entertainment through escapism. The school setting is probably no more common a VN cliché than the bland self-insert protagonist and the gaggle of girls following around said protagonist. The whole suite of clichés is obviously architected around providing a nice, comfortable world for the reader to escape to. That they can relate to it is important, sure, and it's especially easy to relate to something you are, but the core of the motivation is that the reader wants to be there.

Now, obviously there are plenty of VNs out there breaking that mold, and for that matter there are plenty of VNs doing good things even within that mold. Most of them are, nonetheless, probably going to get dismissed by any literary critic as escapism.

But for what it's worth, despite the negative overtones usually associated with the word, I don't view entertainment in general or escapism in particular as a negative in the slightest - it's probably how I spend the majority of my life, and by choice.

[tymmur]

10 minutes ago, Fred the Barber said:

Ehh, I think both @tymmur and @Rooke are wrong about the motivation for the constant school setting. Rooke claims the target audience is in school. Tymmur basically claims the target audience was in school. I propose, instead, that the target audience wishes they were in school.

I don't see was in school and wishes they were in school as mutual exclusive. In fact after reading your post about escapism, I say it's part of both. If they want to escape the harsh adult reality, they want to go to a place they can relate to, where they have experience of not having those problems, which happens to be back in school. I guess one could argue that the effect of those two reasons stack.

 

Having said that, the argument doesn't add up for me. While I do enjoy the school setting, I absolutely hated school and would never go back. I don't think I enjoyed any place of teaching until I started my university days. However that would be a problematic VN setting. Some people wouldn't be able to relate to it at all, some would relate to art and some "hard science" like math, but usually not both. This mean it would be a setting, which should be avoided because it reduces the number of people, who can relate to it, regardless of how it's done. Everybody have the experience of school though, hence why I said everybody can relate to it. While it wasn't everybody, who enjoyed school, everybody can relate to the setting and it could be argued that it would be wishful thinking about how it should have been in school. Most people didn't end up with a harem in school. In fact quite a number of guys failed to get a girlfriend. VNs might be the escape that "I tried to get her to date me, but failed. I can do that in VNs".

[Valmore]

4 hours ago, Asonn said:

Of course this won't appeal to gamer nor readers.... who in the right mind would read a book about a dude who is in high school trying to date 5 girls...... if you remove the visuals and make it a normal book, it wouldn't have any value... this is mostly the case for Moeges and Nukiges, getting rid of the visual will destroy the enjoyment, why you ask? well  you are reading Moege for the cute girls and you read Nukige for the H-scenes or so I assume. Although I might add your idea could work out with chuuni and horror titles. however 90% of the VN market exist about Moeges and Nukiges. 

Didn't 50 Shades of Grey sell tons of copies? Best I can tell:

[Fred the Barber]

59 minutes ago, tymmur said:

While I do enjoy the school setting, I absolutely hated school and would never go back.

Yeah, I could've been clearer about this point specifically. Keep in mind three things during my blatantly uninformed hypothesizing:

• At this point I'm getting pretty far into a stereotype, and am taking it to an extreme (though a logical one, IMO).
• I'm not talking about any actual people, but rather about a general target market that is considered when making one of these idealized high school life VNs.
• I'm really talking about the Japanese market, at whom this media is targeted. The rest of the world is pretty different, and is at best an afterthought.

I strongly suspect the target audience for VNs generally hated high school, but they felt like they were supposed to enjoy it (either because everybody else they knew did, or simply because they'd been spoon-fed so much idealized school life media). So, they have some residual envy for high school students at large, and a desire to experience the ideal school life they missed out on. So, VNs try to fill that gap.

Naturally, this has long since turned into a self-reinforcing cycle. There's vast amounts of otaku media out there celebrating high school life, and in Japan, probably quite a lot of it is getting consumed by people not even in high school yet (or at least, who haven't yet graduated from high school). All of that media builds an idealized image of what high school life ought to be, but of course nobody (I think) actually lives the insane high school life of your typical VN protagonist. Since they didn't have a harem in high school, they feel like they've missed out on some fundamental part of the experience. Well, at least they can play a game and pretend.

Anyway, this is kind of far afield from the original topic at this point... sorry about that. Rooke started it.

[Scorp]

6 hours ago, Nerathim said:

I wonder where you can get books for such low price

You can get most used mass market paperback for 1$ easily. VNs degraded into a bunch of tropes (like absurd trend when 35-year old women are always virgins - as japanese people want virgins and only virgins; transparent protagonist; school setting), so what before started as an art form, now became an used paperback you buy for a dollar to read in train and throw away immediately. But this trash costs 40$ while having same low level... That's a pity.

[Valmore]

@Fred the Barber - I think I can expand upon what you're saying.

Generally speaking, when you have your visual novel set in high school, the protagonist (who you generally are experiencing the story as or through their eyes, either way, you're immersed in the story as the main character) is usually someone either outstanding, or has outstanding circumstances happen to him. In other words, it's pretty much nothing like real high school - it's what you wished high school could have been. Exciting. You're a somebody that people know and or care about on a large scale. You're important. You have a flock of hot girls all ready to go down on you anywhere, anytime. Outside of a few select people, the vast majority of those in high school are just... people. High school was pretty boring for most people. Unless you were a star athlete, the lead in all school plays, or something equally impressive, you went to school, did about as well as everyone else in studies, maybe was in a club or two or was a member of a sports team. When you read a VN, you're now a high school star of some sort.

[Clephas]

10 hours ago, Rooke said:

So I was in the Tokyo Babel thread reading comments about how 'the gaming press doesn't understand VNs' and that inspired me to make this little post.

Visual Novels are pieces of entertainment one reads, and yet I can buy and read 10 books for the price of one VN, all thoroughly enjoyable and probably better written in English. I know people like to quote the ’50 hour’ thing, but that’s not accurate. The voice acting, the slow appearance of the text, and the small text box all serve to slow the reader down, which while being annoying also serves to bloat the 'number of hours' it takes to read. VNs are large, but (on average) not nearly as large as the ‘number of hours’ suggests. So people can 'scrap' the hours of entertainment thing. For readers, the visuals and sound aren't necessary, and definitely don't justify the (in their mind) exorbitant price.

VNs appeal to those who value graphics, sound, appreciate a good story, don’t mind playing on the PC, and don't mind forking over the price of a game. These people are mostly gamers, and yet, for gamers the lack of gameplay will always be a big negative.

So VNs straddle these two communities, at the moment not really appealing to the gamer market or the reader market. And while straddling communities can be a good thing, it's only a good thing when the product appeals to both. VNs appeal to neither, and people’s first impressions are solely negative: Gamers will never appreciate the lack of gameplay, while readers don’t value graphics and sound as much, like to read on mobile platforms, and aren’t willing to fork a premium price to pay for it.

And VNs will not become popular until they overcome this hurdle and target the correct portions of the community in the proper manner.

More or less this... VNs eat up too much time, in comparison to books... and they cost more.  Of course, in terms of actual text, it isn't uncommon for a story-focused VN to actually have the equivalent to two or three novels (American) in content.  The Engrish-translated versions inevitably have grammar snafus and various other writing problems due to the limitations of the translators and editors.   I don't even have a vague interest in playing the English versions of VNs I've played in Japanese simply because I've basically given up on 'masterpiece replication' by translation groups and companies.

As one of the reasons a VN will take longer, word for word, than a book to read... the simple reality that a skilled and experienced reader generally is in the habit of digesting entire paragraphs at a glance.  The fifteen lines I read per minute are the equivalent of one page of novel in most cases... but I can read most novels at a rate of up to eight pages a minute. 

Does that give you an idea of just how much of a time abyss VNs can be?  lol