Lumaria
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Posts posted by Lumaria
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@Pabloc the story based genre has been around in the west but it wasn't the distinct style of a VN and just didn't evolve. Keep in mind VNs we'e even more niche back then even for Japan. So I find it pointless to ask why they didn't develop concurrently. I find it just arguing for arguings sake. Japan and the west were far different then they are now. So to expect a new genre to be born independently.
I'm saying as of now, VNs are being controlled by the Japanese market almost exclusively because they came up with it first and have an established market (that they know of).
And there's not one person who is virtually interested in the medium who aren't aware of VNs. But as of now, there has been more room for it but with technology advancing graphic adventures seem the easier and safer approach.
I understand what you are saying or trying to say. I just don't agree with it. Its pointless.
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25 minutes ago, CeruleanGamer said:
As much as I want VNs to be in mobile devices, I would not like it because every game that goes in mobile phones/tablets become a nasty cesspool of microtransactions. I've seen VN games ruined because routes are locked until you pay $2.99-$4.99 or whatever the app developers price their microtransactions crap nowadays.
Imagine if they released Muv Luv or Steins;Gate on mobile devices but you can only play a 15 min segment/chapter while you have to buy the others separately..... That's really fucking dumb. Might as well charge me the full price instead of me going out of my way to charge, charge, charge separately for these little things.
Micro transaction is limited closer to social games. episodic games, are sometimes done, such as telltale, but each segment is worthy of a game of its own.
But for a VN, Micro transaction wouldn't work. Whats actually more popular is having a demo and then selling the full version.
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@Pabloc I already answered why we didn't have a crap ton of VNs and it's mostly by how the VN community treats the medium. If you can't accept that the problem is the VN community then oh well. But that's the answer.
The west go with graphic adventures because that's the medium they are familiar with, any Westerner who runs into VNs will need a good first impression.
The problem is that what I gave was a basis of any VN audience. It actually is that easy and itbhas become easier and easier over the years not because of the way VNs are now butbbecause the increase in graphic addbenture games.
and no, not a lot of devs are taking advantage of Google app store than on steam. steam is geared toward gamers, but app store is geared to a broader audience. Broader, more casual audience.
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1 hour ago, flyingappels said:
You are right about what makes telltale games sucessful, but simply saying that you can make a vn for every different type of person isn't going to cut it. Targeting a niche of a niche market won't really pay of, and you still would have to reach your audience. And you haven't answered who should produce those vns.
These three things (How big is your market? How would get that market to buy&try vns? Who has a reason to and will produce them?) are much more important than plot ideas
VNs are niche because of the refusal to try and aim for other audiences. VNs audience at it's most broadest is anyone who A) enjoys novels or doesn't mind a significant amount of reading. B) doesn't mind visuals. C) anyone who is willing to try things (and I'll get into that).
And that's it...for everything else the bigger markets exist. Just how telltale relies on those bigger IPs to be successful.
Here's how I would personally try doing. Work with a few VNs exclusively designed for a specific specific audience that I know is safe. The seed was successfully funded on kick starter, so survival / horror games is an easy place to start.
Try out steam or Google play store. Anywhere where I can offer a demo for free. Or make it free already with non intrusive ads.
Do a lot and mean a lot of beta testing with people who bare new to the genre. Or just the casual of most casual players and see how quick or how slow they become engaged. Use their feedback and see if it can be done. The next would definitely be romance, and depending on the success, more can come.
Once that's done, and there's a trending sale, make more VNs for that. Most likely a sequel or even a trilogy. Once it's been established, time to slowly break into new territory.
I asked permission from a friend but he was writing a novel specifically aimed at people in the US who are otakus in a sense. And I got permission to use his idea for a VN. And he even stated that it would need to present themselves as real characters not anime.
But this idea can bridge the gap. Especially for otakus to try something they can "truly" relate to without it resembling the very thing they obsess over.
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3 hours ago, B0X0R said:
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but aren't visual novels a sub-genera of point and click games?
In the context of all games on pc where we click anything.
55 minutes ago, Fred the Barber said:Specific definitional arguments about pretty much anything are generally both fruitless (nobody can agree, because, for example, the Platonic ideal Visual Novel doesn't exist) and useless (they won't actually inform the situation).
Here's a more useful phrasing of the question to argue: is the experience of playing a Telltale Games release similar enough to the experience of playing a visual novel that people who enjoy the former will likely also enjoy the latter? If arguing for, ideally present a VN with a substantially similar experience (differences, if any, should be reasonably excusable as not central to the experience); if arguing against, present differences vs. all other VNs that make for a substantial enough change in the experience as to render it not enjoyable for the (rather large) western audience for Telltale Games. The former case is probably quite a bit easier than the latter, but, well, that's the nature of the argument here... I've actually never played a game by Telltale Games before, so I offer no argument either way.
A good question.
Telltale games to my knowledge makes exclusive episodic point-and-click side stories to existing IPs. The games are mostly seeing a story play out in full audio and some freedom to roam around and use a combination of quick time events with number of options (to add pressure to your choice). They are the opposite of a novel. They are far more game oriented. VNs have a more measure side. Taking your time to read and enjoy whatever it is.
One key point is that I have never seen a telltale game for a brand new exclusive unique story. Thats not to say they can't, but that's uncharted water they are not willing to try because logic.
However, people who've played games like Ace Attorney are more likely to try out VNs just by the general knowledge of what makes a VN with the execution of Ace Attorney's VN qualities, and even just by the restrictions ACe Attorney had by the aspects that werent exactly VN.
Allow me to explain:
Ace Attorney is 80% text based and you read everything. THe only thing you dont always read is the evidence. But because Ace Attorney is more of a graphic adventure, it doesnt have an over branching story. INstead it offers one legitimate way to proceed.
Ace Attorney however demanded critical thinking and but no shortcuts or harder ways to succeed or the legitimate option of failing. As a VN or at least closer to one, Ace Attorney would offer crazy ammount of replayability.
ANd im positive players saw VNs a little lighter by what Ace Attorney offered. Plus witty and surprising characters.
back to telltale games. I see VNs able to succeed in what telltales does. Although extremely popular, telltale games does get some flak. But it succeeds because it executes well on finding its market. Thry target popular IPs and tease their players with mystery behind the games.
I can see VNs working in the sense that just like theres a telltale game for every popular IP, there can be a VN for every different type of person, so long as that the person can tolerate some of the core aspects. IT works for telltale games.
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@CeruleanGamer you mentioned some good genres that almost everyone can use for VNs.
I will say Dr. Who is a piece of something bigger called Brittaphile. They are also more likely to be part of the same group that enjoy things from BBC. But there's nothing saying that a VN can take an alien/dead space approach.
For zombies, yes, that is also a big big thing going on but I think people like the idea of what zombies provide than what zombies actually are. Zombies tends to be much bigger as a survival horror genre. Which could really work well with
As for #4 and #5, I don't think theyll translate well into VNs unless taking the school days approach and it's all about the timing of the events. But some will most likely see through that and feel bored.
But also think about this: in Japan the harem genre is comical, complete fantasy. But it can actually be a real, stressful situation. In a more westernize form, harem can really feel like real life.
@B0X0R graphic adventures evolved from point and click and would even contain solving puzzles. Telltales isn't a novel format. Tell tales more or less usually leads to the same ending anyways as much as they make one believe that they do.
VNs are visualistic but it's more of how the visuals just emphasize the main core aspect that feels like a novel.
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10 minutes ago, B0X0R said:
To me @Lumaria, the slogan "Make Visual Novels Popular in the West" is just that. It's just a subtitle to put under the name Fuwanovel. The truth is that visual novels are already popular in the West.
In 2012, Telltale released The Walking Dead. You probably already know this, but the game made quite an impact on not only the western gaming community, but also the youtube world. A lot of popular youtubers started playing it for their channel, ranging from your Pewdipies to your Harshly Criticals, everyone was playing it and everyone was watching it.
Last year, the game that several gaming communities were talking about was Life is Strange. Similar to TWD, Life is Strange was nominated for several awards.
You may disagree with my opinion, but I believe that visual novels are already popular in the West. Just because TWD uses character models instead of sprites does not mean that it should be disqualified as a visual novel. So what if Japan drinks coffee in a can, and so what if the West freezes it, drowns it in syrup, throws a fistful of sugar in it, dresses it with whip cream and calls it coffee. At the end of the day they're still considered coffee.
Now on the topic of your proposed VN concepts. If you want to create a visual novel, go for it. In fact, I implore you to do it, for I would gladly try out any visual novel that comes in my way, regardless of its method of execution.
Visual novels have a specific structure but are very close to the graphic adventure genre that most western market has.
The slogan is just that, but I think it's possible. Not in he direct sense where everyone plays vNs but those who like story games play a VN that fits their tastes.
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@Pabloc oh look. You finally bringing something substantial. Doesn't excuse you for all the broad over generalizations to prove the point you weren't making now.
I didnt believe you wanted to see unique original VN. Because you provided nothing up until this point. Your last point was revolved on all the downsides.
You want to see a no original unique vn? I am generalizing vns for a different point. To See the perspective of those on the other side see.
Its not false. Its true. Even within the community admit it. There's no denying.
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Oh there definitely needs a change. But a change in how we view VNs.
The otaku mentality is Not the point of the thread. Its actually against it. Not to say one can't enjoy what they enjoy but this specific mentality is restricting
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14 minutes ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said:
can you tell me, then, what you actually want to achieve specifically within this forum?
i don't understand what you're saying here, is this a comment about fuwa's lack of success in its premise? first page of what? this forum isn't just a first page, it's what you get when you, for example, type into google: 'top 50 vns', stuff like that. it's a place to get information, preferably positive. how has it done that horribly?
Come up with VN ideas and Even if a completely hobby approach, you know. Make it an open event.
Second I'm talking about this thread. The first page of this thread.
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44 minutes ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said:
@Lumariai give up. you're right. i really think you are. just allow me to give you some honest advice
if your intention is to change people's minds, then getting rid of narrow-minded people this way seems a bit ironic. i do think there are ways to approach these people. maybe you could try summarizing your opinions from a more positive perspective by, for example, writing an article about the strengths and potentials of the vn medium as you define it. i think that could change more minds than simply ranting about what's wrong and how things should be, no offense meant
and another thing, i don't think your interpretation of the motto: 'make visual novels popular in the west' is entirely justified. i imagine (someone back me up here) that fuwa was formed not primarily to actively increase popularity of visual novels, but more to simply create a positive environment where people randomly introduced to, interested in and/or uncertain about vns could go to find out more, and i think it does that very well
good luck
Keep in mind, I Behan with open minded discussion. Everything about Visual novels says it's a versatile medium. And the people who come in and are fully admitting they do not want to be enlightened is a bad choice.
Even if what you claim is true about community selling VNs more, you all did a horrible job. Look at the first page and tell me they couldn't have handled the idea better?
I've been actively trying to do it. But there are distinct barriers that stop people from seeing the real picture.
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1 hour ago, Stormwolf said:
If he doesn't like it, it's fully within his right to complain.
Just as any medium. But are we really going to prove that we are the lowest common denominator?
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@Chuee when I hear myself I hear: "why should we allow other people to enjoy their personal tastes in a medium I love." Or "why should we stop discriminating to the west".
Thats what I hear. You can assume ibdont like Japanese culture. But I appreciate Japan a little different then the otaku. For one I know Japan's strengths and weaknesses.
Look up "I hate weeaboos" video from trailer Drake. The last couple minutes is what I wholeheartedly agree with.
@Pabloc what you quoted and what I said are not the same thing. And what you interpreted is wrong. Especially after I clarified.
I don't believe that you would love to see a western VN. When you actively look for the common misconception, where you generalize Westerners negatively and western culture. You have yet to find any reedming qualities of the idea of a western VN.
@Dizzy people here are so otaku they act like they are out of touch where they come from.
Are you incapable of understanding that people have different tastes? Do people think there is a legion of doom of anti otaku haters? And if so do you think they share the same interest?
@john 'mr. customer' smith there is a difference between saying "I personally like Japanese stuff." And "I am against this because I like Japanese stuff"
And that is a huge issue. If they get offended, and can't open their minds or have gears turn. Then good for them. They've proven their ignorance. Why keep them here only to devalue the topic with their selfish ways with no intent to learn?
Because that's what they are really asking me when they ask me seriously dumb questions. And I mean seriously dumb. There is no forethought whatsoever in these questions.
Can you imagine someone actually ask you face to face "why should we broaden our horizon?" Or "why should we appeal to other tastes too". Why should we make it accessible to others".
The obvious answer: because you look like an ignorant selfish person who cares more about keeping his preferences then to allow others to access it.
This is the answer I've been avoiding but it needs to be said. Look, if you truly want VNs to be more popular in the west, then stop thinking that you will automatically gain more people to appreciate the same otaku things. It will be very likely that someone may have no interest in it. It is also likely that some may integrate into it too.
But there's less room for backlash on working with a medium with less tropes, stereotypes, and archetypes.
I mean it, if you have no interest whatsoever in the idea of non Japanese VNs. Then leave. You don't have to be in this thread. The entire forum is catered to you.
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1 hour ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said:
look, i think i understand what you're trying to achieve with this discussion and that's very noble and all but it doesn't give you the right to defame people with opinions like they have, with statements like this.
just saying
I don't think you have understood. I think the idea only a very very small handful truly understood.
The whole point is to push away from the otaku perspective. I'm not defaming anyone's opinion. but it defeats the purpose of going against it.
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25 minutes ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said:
so what? you keep saying things like this but are you trying to say that having an otaku mindset somehow makes you less worthy of participating in a discussion?
Yes.....it objectively does.
You can't possibly think of any positive or real ways to integrate Visual novels toward the west with an otaku mindset. It really demand for one to take a real step back from your interests to really see the potential of what VN has to offer.
I'm not saying you can't be an otaku to participate inn the discussion. But you aren't going anywhere if you rely on that otaku mind set.
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1 hour ago, Justin579 said:
I think change the art style to like cartoons and take out the sex. to many religious people here that would not approve of it.
Thats otaku thinking.
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@Palas you would be surprised in the Google play store how much is considered a game and doesn't offer any real game play (and with good reviews too). With how VNs are some will take the less is more approach, and leave more to the animation but have good story. but others would naturally make a quality VN just by knowing what they have to work with.
VNs are just like adventure books. They just rely a little more visuals. Some will market it more as a story than a game, and that isn't a bad thing...at it's core, it will be a game. VNs just offer more interactivity than adventure books, and some will see it. Also see things current VN community doesn't see, like how to get a
No, we don't need a popular western VN to make VNs popular in the west. Thats still thinking like the current community. You don't understand that VNs will never explicitly be popular but at least an accepted medium. You still see it like VNs have to feed your otaku needs. You can't see how VNs can fulfill other peoples desires.
You say so many thing that need to be refuted but because I'm limited to smartphone.I can't gonin detail. Plus have not been able to split up a quote.
But it doesn't matter how VNs and here. You're not japanese, and that's enough for me to say it is possible.
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@Pabloc There are many issues with what you said. But i will just clear up one misconception. It was clear that the subject was talking about making VNs (in general) popular in the west, as in more well known, more recognizable, and more accessible medium. which the solution is stop making VNs feel so exclusively toward japanese.We are not talking about "popular western VNs". that's not even a thing, (yet) so you can discriminate something that hasn't existed. Heck VNs as they are now aren't even popular at all.
Everything else was plain wrong...you talk like an otaku, and otakus are always the most bias ones.
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Unreadable. Its all black and with this dark background, makes it impossible. Which is odd. Normally forums (or any modern computer) has the ability to turn the font opposite color if it's automatically set to default color.
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4 minutes ago, WinterfuryZX said:
There's already been some experiments, for exhample this is older than YU-NO, created way before the first attempts in bringing japanese VNs to the west (Himeya-soft in late 90s):
VN actually existed a little earlier as well for PC. but the thing is most people see it as those as expriements because no one sees it as a defined medium. At least in terms of western audience.
But still the idea is to plant the idea that this medium can work with other stories. People seem to have backed off and I hope those who wrote it off are starting to have some gears turn.
For me, when I hear VN turning to ball audiences, I see a good thing I see unique stories and characters coming to life in VNs.
Im very sour by how some people here have treated VN. Even to the point that I feel they don't know what a VN is.
Subconsciously I think people define VN with Japan ophile tendencies.
But that will grow out eventually. With games like akibas trip which is a poor wordplay with akiba strip. And Senran Kagura.
then again I don't doubt that a significant group of people who enjoy games control a certain percentage of the VN community too. I mean why have porn adventures in the guise of VNs? Those exist in the west too, they just don't call them VNs.
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Remember the idea is to plant the idea. Right now people can't e that VN community is the same otaku community. So people can't think up that maybe somewhere else someone would like to use the medium to aim at a completely different audience. Maybe, just maybe, at an audience that isn't about games.
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7 hours ago, kingdomcome said:
Well so far everything non Japanese has been inferior (KS is an exception but it's based on Jap. culture). I am not aware of any others that are good, besides "The Seed" which I played a short snippet of from their beta (I srsly think this one will be a game changer).
You mentioned "Life Is Strange", and I'll add that anything from Telltale Games is very good. Their form is not of a VN, but it could be..
Yes, I agree. I think most people would agree with your statement, but there hasn't been anything else that compares...yet.
BUT we can still have personal preferences, some may prefer VN's based on Japanese culture.
I'm not arguing about personal preference...ANd ive continuously been stating that. but where do some of these people get off believing Japanese is superior when it's all based on preference.
You don't need a full fledged English VN just to see the potential it has. There are games out there that can be great VN.
Additionally, Palpas thinks I contradicted myself when mentioning referring to Life is Strange simply because it wasn't made As a hobby. But if taken the VN approach, it could have easily been a VN and not spend any real money.
Telltale games usually takes the episodic route to save time but their development.
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First off nowhere in he'll does VN say Japanese culture centric. Nowhere.in.hell.it's stupid, it's naive, and people need to seriously grow some perspective. VNs are not Japanese centric. The developers choose to, but the medium itself isn't. Period.
Second, when I said something not eastern or western. I meant something I see in both areas but not defined by it. Primarily video game art. A lot of triple a video game art both in the west and Japan hold similar styles. But doesn't matter. All VNs will need a distinct artstyle.
third, you are far too rapped up in actively making a business out of it instantly. I know the bast majority of VNs started out as hobby developers who instantly became cult hit. Hell VNs aren't even all that high and mighty form of art, and I know some of you play some VN out of morbid curiosity. So I dont believe I have the wrong audience. i believe some of the audience is here in this forum whether they want to admit it or not. And believe it or not curiosity and demand for feedback whether casual or not is informative. Even when they think they are trolling.
but as for this community, they just need to see what a Western VN looks and feels like. BEcause their otaku minds, some of them cant comprehend what a western VN would look like. In terms of style, i say imagine Life is Strange. Thats the best example of what a visual novel can be, both visually and story-wise. not in terms of mechanics just to be clear. The audience is gamers, primarily gamers who follow gematsu and siliconera, the leading front in more Indie style and Visual novel centric areas. They are the perfect place to share these type of games. I've seen worst games come to life and gain success.
Otakus act like they own VN Genre, both developers and fans. There are rare gems out there such as The Seed. We also see games like Zombie run where players use story to exercise.
I don't believe there is no market for western VNs. Because to argue that is to argue all Indie campaignes. I honestly think it has a real chance.
Maybe it's the otaku in some of you that feel anything non Japanese is inferior. But there is real room for novel-level story. And grade-a deep emotional characters and heavy decision making. The problem is people have some misconception that it has to be Japanese. I honestly believed we we're moving past it. That people we're appreciating all cultures not just Japanese.
I don't care what anyone personally defines VN, it's not reliant on Japanese culture. Thats just a trend. a trend that can change over time. All it takes is one person to show them it can be done.
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12 minutes ago, Palas said:
I see where you're coming from, @Lumaria, but there is a crucial thing you're missing altogether. That is, it's a market we're talking about. This means it's a collective construction made of individual interests. Thus, changing individual interests (or even perspectives) is impossible and, even if it could be done, it would be a lot more effort than you'd like. If people here say they like VNs the way they are, they're in fact saying that is the kind of product they will buy. And that's it. Nothing you can do about it. You're basically approaching the issue backwards.
Let me ask you why VNs haven't been westernised as you prescribe yet. It would be far too easy to claim it's because "VNs come from Japan, are consumed by otaku and otaku are narrow-minded/dumb/hysterical people, so let's change their perspective". I'll give you a hint - the key is in the developers, not in the audience. The idea to make visual novels for people who don't play visual novels is as sound a business idea as throwing money in a well and expect a fairy to multiply it for you, you see. Who exactly are these people you're talking about? What in the world is a "more universal art style"? I'm pretty sure there isn't one. So you've got to give us a more solid strategy. You have to give ideas to establish a healthy production chain, not simply drop an aesthetics and expect it to make it big by itself.
A lot of games became popular and we're born being Indie games. Such as higurashi and hatoful boyfriend.
But let's make it clear on how a solid campaigns can work. First off, announcing the campaign once it begins. Making it known the goals and intentions, even if people aren't interested right away. places like siliconera and google play store. If really want your money ahead of time for living expenses indiegogo or kickstarter (but with the salespitch that we are making something that shouldve existed a long time ago). The idea is to prime them when they gain more info about the project. Also don't think that the campaigns is designed to immediately create a market, because the devs ultimately create their audience over time, but the campaigns essentially will let other devs know "it's possible".
When things about goals, and how one sees VNs and how western VNs have potential to be better, interviews can become a quick and easy way for people to gain an interest. Tells viewers how the approach is being done, an idea of who you ate. Additionally give a little taste on how the VNs will be different and save surprises.
Trailers would be good of a compilation of the games. Oh how these VNs feel.
As for actually designing the western VNs. We can discuss that separately.
Also dividing the campaigns in realistic phases and announcing them. Such as phase 1 is releasing three distinctly different VNs, phase 2 is making three more with more focus on player feedback. But this is open to discussion.
Building communication is key. Listening to things people disliked about japanese centric VNs that they would not like to see or focus on things that VNs rarely do. Even if they don't like the idea at first, people will eventually attempt to humor it and can get interested in it if they gain a response out of it.
When I said universal artstyle I meant a style not specifically based of the west nor east. I tend to believe photo realistic with a touch of surreal tends to be on both ends of the spectrum. But not all of them should have the same art. Each VN should have it's own distinct style.
If you look at G5 they have a clear audience for their graphic puzzle adventure games. Great art style but super cheesy voice acting and yet, they don't care so much. My personal favorite is Nightmares from the Deep 2.
Ultimately it will make it known that it's possible. Market wise or not. Fans will try different approaches.
1 minute ago, Palas said:Here's a fun fact: there's absolutely nothing that defines a VN.
Now, this is biased coming from me: I'm all for changing VNs and westernise them. There are games (and I consider VNs to be games through and through, which, you might be surprised to find out, is not the case with many people within the community) I count as VNs that vndb doesn't and they're somewhat strict about it. I'm all for defining Western genres for VNs instead of relying on the ones we imported from Japan. I'd really like to rebuild the concept of a visual novel from scratch, because I don't really think they are a thing in the West.
But really, VNs have literally zero a priori definitions. It's a presentation style, if anything, and even then it's perfectly possible to be subverted and still be considered a VN (take Emily is Away as an example). They may not have choices, novel narrative, sprites or text boxes. So if we're talking about perspectives, listen up - the bottom of the issue is still lots of jumps away.
Visual novel is a medium more than a genre. Its a form of interactive novel put in video format. Which by default makes it a video game.
Text oriented and player choice. You can play devils advocate but there are legitimate definitions. And None of them are backed by Japanese culture.
You see people look for the more general principle definition rather than what literally makes a VN.
And that's what I want to focus on. Western VNs can easily be just regular VNs that aren't targetted toward Japanese and still feel like a VN.
a way to make visual novels more popular in the west
in Visual Novel Talk
Posted
social games NEED micro transactions. They are completely controlled by multiple servers and their value is with group of people.
For VNs they could take an episodic approach but perhaps more on a DLC style where people get the full Game but can get additional chapters and G5 sort of does that by paying to unlock the secret chapter that hints the sequel. But there is a reason why lite or free trial versions exist. Because people can try it out and if it's promising, people can buy the game.
For example: monument valley wasn't free but it also had an expansion that I had to pay. I mind the first time but not the second time because I enjoyed it.