Nagisa_Fawkes Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 If you're reading this, you either know about the official explanation, or finished the VN and didn't know about it (this was my case until a few days ago). Or maybe you're just someone who doesn't mind the spoilers, but if that's the case, you should close this right now! Umineko is too good a VN, everyone deserves to experience it by themselves. For starters, if you don't know about the Official Explanation, I'll summarize it: Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice, and Yasu are all the same person; all different personalities in the same human/body (who dunnit), the baby who fell down the cliff, a male by birth. Why dunnit: Battler's sin against the Shannon personality. Later, Sayo (let's call him that) found out about the cliff accident after solving the epitaph, and being told by Genji. He becomes the true head of the Ushiromiya family after Kinzo's death. But, having three different selfs, each one in love with a different person (Jessica, George, Battler), that conflict, and Battler's sin, made Sayo give up, and just leave everything up to fate (the "roulette"). I was very, very surprised upon reading that. I mean, like, wut? That's not possible. And I still think Ryuukishi made it all up here, just to deceive everyone. No, I didn't reach this conclusion myself, I watched a video, where it's very effectively proved that they CAN'T be the same person. Yeah, two hours, hehe, but I doubt you'll still believe in the official explanation after that. Of course, I don't expect just about everyone to watch that, so, I ask you, do you believe in it? Why? If not, do you have any side theories? I think I'll have to agree with the person who made this video, and his Rosa = Beatrice and George are the culprits. I still have to watch the other 3 parts (of 2 hours each) to really believe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funyarinpa Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 I still do not understand 95% of the VN so I cannot really comment on this except one thing: There are many scenes where Shannon and Kanon serve tea together. How's that possible with the official explanation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Funny, I was about to post about this myself on that other Umineko thread, since I literally finished episode 8 like yesterday and read some stuff about this today. The ShKanonTrice theory is very solid in my opinion. It really explains everything and makes a lot of sense regarding what the games tries to do. When I read the VN, it didn't occur to me (such a complex theory requires thinking, re-reading and careful coherence check), but upon reading it immediately made the link between a lot of things. For example I had heavy doubts on the Shanon=Kanon possibility, because of the Love Battle and hints in episode 8 (plus the fact that it explains number of people shenanigans). It links this with the whole classic "magic as a metaphor for transition to adulthood" which is a really strong theme of the VN. Regarding the Rosatrice theory that is developed in the video you linked, I find it much less satisfactory. A lot of his arguments are opposed on this page, but more than factual coherence/incoherence on details, it makes much less sense when confronted with the themes developed in the VN. I can't talk about the tiniest details because I didn't read all the theory-crafting that was made about this and I only read the VN once, but I find the "official" explanation more fitting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerathim Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 "Against the official explanation" is a sheer humbug. I don't want to write a wall of text atm but to put it short it just threw out the message that Ryukishi tried to pass on : "without love it cannot be seen", and the whydunnit is an utter failure, kinda remember me Final Fantasy 8's crazy theories written by some madmen. And they can be the same person, just read Umineko's manga, it's official and it adds many red truths to the story that lighten up a large number of grey areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisa_Fawkes Posted September 2, 2014 Author Share Posted September 2, 2014 I still do not understand 95% of the VN so I cannot really comment on this except one thing: There are many scenes where Shannon and Kanon serve tea together. How's that possible with the official explanation? That`s okay, the important thing is that, if the Shkanon theory was true, they couldn`t be seen together by the objective point of view. That's satisfied for Battler, as if you play the VN once again, you'll notice they're never together in front of him, except in the Beta-world, but it doesn't count. From the 5th game, the objective point of view becomes Furudo Erika. And, in front of her, the two DO appear together, when she's introduced in the parlor (if I'm not mistaken), that brings about doubts about the Shkanon theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albedo Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 No, Shkannon is pretty much true. Thematically, the game would make no sense at all if it was a lie, or Ryukishi trolling. Did you read our confessions? That makes it even clearer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvz Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 The only thing that made me doubt Shkanon theory is that scene on the second game where Shannon, robotically, tells Will that she and Kanon can't be at the church at the same time, as she was being forced to say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyanko Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 I watched the whole thing a long time ago and I have to say I have a lot of respect for the guy, for finding and explaining his own theory. I do not agree with some things he says but on the other side, I have always been sceptical about the shkanon theories people made up. Anyway, I see Umineko as a solid mystery novel, even inspired by a solid mystery novel, the shkanon theory doesn't fit in. Back when I was following the Umineko discussions while waiting for the release of ep7, people where theorizing about what is now called the "official theory" I guess, but after ep7 a lot of those people didn't even believe in that theory anymore. There were not that many discussions at the time though, but after most people read the last 50% of ep8 English translation (and after a lot of raging because they didn't get the answers typed out) they went searching for answers on the internet, found these discussions and here it is, the "shkanon-theory": with ep 7 even seen as a confirmation. Of course Our Confessions added to this, it's written in such a way that whatever theory you might think is true, it will always feel like a confirmation. People asked Ryukishi about it in interviews, but whatever he admitted or denied, he always added you should find an answer yourself. He likes everyone to come up with an answer themselves, which a lot of people won't because the story is long and pretty damn complicated. The knownNoMore guy made his own theory, shared it after a lot of research and time, to mostly get hate in the beginning. I guess it's because he's going against an older theory that was more liked and which gave a lot of people peace of mind after finishing such a complicated story without eye opener. The "official theory" was their only answer to the riddle. Fortunately more people have read Umineko now and he gets some love and appreciation. In my opinion both theories, (and also some other theories I read about) are not the truth. Also: "It's possible to show a different truth by using a different interpretation!! When multiple truths exist in parallel, the authenticity of both is questioned!!" - There is no truth if you get what I mean. If a theory is born where all people believe in, it will "become" truth. This however will never exist until Ryukishi will make a truth (by saying what he had in mind when writing the story). This is probably the only real truth most people will ever except. I have not found my truth yet.. but I'm sure I will find it in the future, after rereading this masterpiece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vokoca Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Shkanon not only makes the most sense thematically, but it's also clearly canon. Even if Ryu was trolling with Our Confessions, you can't really afford to troll with manga, can you? Then again, does the truth really matter? After reading episode eight, I'd honestly say it doesn't at all, and that's one of the things I loved about Umineko so much. The themes are the important thing here, not so much the 'facts'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyanko Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Yes, everyone must find their own truth, the truth they're happy with and believe in. You can have the wildest fantasies about what actually happened during those 2 days, you decide what's in that seacatbox. Thats how the ending was designed and it's really fitting and much more satisfying than any answer they could've given me I believe. Vokoca 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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