My Mangagamer request

[sanahtlig]

By the point being "stronger" I meant "not conservative".  Not "better".  Well, I didn't really mean anything concrete by that statement anyway.  I've edited the statement for clarity.

 

Also saying that without their nukige they wouldn't even be able to remain sustainable is just going too far.

 

While Mangagamer doesn't say such things directly, what they have said is telling.

 

 

However, operations at MangaGamer are not in jeopardy. We are a fairly stable business of our own at this point. (Go nukige profits!!)

http://forums.mangagamer.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65&start=15#p4652

 

I can understand that some people have absolutely zero interest in nukige, but it is an undeniable fact that they sell pretty well, and as a company, profits are good. They also serve the purpose of helping drive longer, non nukige projects.

http://forums.mangagamer.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83&hilit=nukige+funding&start=30#p5498

 

a large portion of our wholesale orders going out to retailers are for games like Boob Wars and Harem Party. (For example, Da Capo still has not gotten a reprint yet, while Boob Wars has already been reprinted at least twice.)

 

In the convention circuit where most hard copies are sold, the spot-sale is very important, and [ero] sell better than pretty dresses or something that requires a 10-minute explanation to convey the appeal for.

 

Not saying your tastes are invalid (because they're perfectly fine), but we try to appeal to a lot of different tastes, and the sad truth is that games like Boob Wars help finance lengthy moege like Da Capo 3.

http://forums.mangagamer.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83&hilit=nukige+funding&start=30#p5526

 

They weren't so cheery before the lineup became nukige-heavy, and there was even talk that Mangagamer might not be around in a few years.  Those quotes I don't have, as all posts older than 6 months or so were lost in a recent forum crash.  Their story titles seem to barely cover costs, as evidenced by the voice cuts from Koihime Musou when it was released, with the statement that voice licensing costs couldn't be recouped unless the game sold 2k copies (which as their bestselling title only managed to do so after several months of sales).

[Wahfuu]

You say that your point is stronger but I failed to even get what are you trying to prove. I mean I did acknowledge that they probably earn more by translating nukige than story-driven VNs but as part of story-driven VN fanbase (that is majority of this society) it is normal that I would put my hope in other groups and organizations. Also saying that without their nukige they wouldn't even be able to remain sustainable is just going too far.

No, it's entirely true. Mangagamer sometimes doesn't even break even on their shitty nukige titles. Think about how poorly their story titles actually sell if that's the case. And no, this isn't just an assumption made by looking at one of their blog posts. And on the other side of the fence, some of their best sellers are nukige titles like Boob Wars.

Of course I'm not exactly going to start praising MangaGamers vomitting of Nukige, but it is a neccessary evil in some cases. I do think the company has lost almost all of it's ambition, though. It seems to just take whatever it can get it's hands on if there is a small chance at making a profit from it. It's quite a depressing organization now.

[sanahtlig]

Of course I'm not exactly going to start praising MangaGamers vomitting of Nukige, but it is a neccessary evil in some cases. I do think the company has lost almost all of it's ambition, though. It seems to just take whatever it can get it's hands on if there is a small chance at making a profit from it. It's quite a depressing organization now.

 

I threw a fit when Mangagamer announced their partnership with Hentai Industries / Morningstar, which produces some of the trashiest doujin nukige I've ever come across (think DLsite level bad).  They're convinced that selling bottom-of-the-barrel nukige at single-digit prices will turn a profit with no ill long-term consequences on their brand or reputation as distributors.

 

 

 

 

You say that your point is stronger but I failed to even get what are you trying to prove. 

 

 

Unfortunately, this is what I was trying to reply to.

 

 

if things that you said were totally correct

If you want a clear and well-formed response, you're going to have to hold up your end of the bargain.

[Okami]

Now you are confusing me even more, up till now you where strongly defending what Mangagamer does just so now you say this:

 

 

Hentai Industries / Morningstar, which produces some of the trashiest doujin nukige I've ever come across (think DLsite level bad).  They're convinced that selling bottom-of-the-barrel nukige at single-digit prices will turn a profit with no ill long-term consequences on their brand or reputation as distributors.

[sanahtlig]

Real viewpoints aren't black and white political platforms that you see on TV.  They're qualified and complex.  I'm not a defender of Mangagamer.  I do urge people to support the VNs they enjoy, which means more than just pirating whatever they can get their hands on and urging others to do the same.  In my eyes, many of Mangagamer's so-called failings can be blamed on consumers like you and me.  By correcting misperceptions and encouraging personal responsibility, I seek to alter the market dynamics that led Mangagamer down their current path.

 

But to recap this discussion:

sanahtlig: Mangagamer sells a lot of nukige because that's what sells (for them).

Okami: No, it's merely their choice.  There's no compelling reason for them to release nukige over story-driven titles.  If there were, other companies (JAST, MoeNovel) would only release nukige.

sanahtlig: No, Mangagamer was driven into a corner.  They had no choice <insert rant against piracy>.  Your analogy doesn't work for X and Y reasons.

Okami: I don't believe you.  Also, your 5% stat is a lie.

sanahtlig: Is not.

Okami: Is too.

sanahtlig: Ok fine, but your stat is a lie too.

Okami: Is not.

sanahtlig: Is too.

Okami: What were we arguing about again?

sanahtlig: Good question.

Wahfuu: Sanahtlig's right.  Fucking Nukigegamer.

sanahtlig: Word.

[Wahfuu]

I threw a fit when Mangagamer announced their partnership with Hentai Industries / Morningstar, which produces some of the trashiest doujin nukige I've ever come across (think DLsite level bad).  They're convinced that selling bottom-of-the-barrel nukige at single-digit prices will turn a profit with no ill long-term consequences on their brand or reputation as distributors.

 

MangaGamer has basically given up trying to introduce VN's to the west as a respectable medium in my eyes. They only seek to churn out as much shit low-profit tiltes as possible in order to make a buck.

It's forgivable in some aspects. Some of their highest selling titles are indeed Nukige, and even their shitty nukige that barely breaks even outsells the story titles. But it'd be nice to see MangaGamer have a bit more.. respect for themselves and the medium as a whole.

[Okami]

Well I got the impression that you were defending them, but anyway it really is like this in the end:

 

Okami: What were we arguing about again?

sanahtlig: Good question.

 

I mean the only thing that we were really disagreed where about the number of translated VNs.

 

PS: I LOL-ed on your recap of discussion.

[sanahtlig]

 

MangaGamer has basically given up trying to introduce VN's to the west as a respectable medium in my eyes. They only seek to churn out as much shit low-profit tiltes as possible in order to make a buck.

It's forgivable in some aspects. Some of their highest selling titles are indeed Nukige, and even their shitty nukige that barely breaks even outsells the story titles. But it'd be nice to see MangaGamer have a bit more.. respect for themselves and the medium as a whole.

 

At least Mangagamer throws one or two decent titles our way each year.  And unlike JAST, they're titles that wouldn't have been fan-translated 5 years ago.  Also, with Mangagamer's throughput, Sturgeon's law basically guarantees a few gems every once in a while.  That will in all likelihood be nukige.

 

The current market in a nutshell:

Mangagamer (a.k.a Nukigegamer): You got a fetish?  We got a game.

JAST USA: Bringing you hot titles you want today...in 2019.

MoeNovel: Bringing erotic text games in English to 12-year-old French girls everywhere.

[RusAnon]

I do think the company has lost almost all of it's ambition, though. It seems to just take whatever it can get it's hands on if there is a small chance at making a profit from it. It's quite a depressing organization now.

 

Taking everything moogy says as undeniable truth is bad idea. Moogy isn't interested in nukiges and moege, therefore obviously he ignored the fact that MG reached deals with CLOCKUP and Noesis, but its significant achievement and you have to be completely oblivious to the genre to call them "shit low-profit tiltes".

[sanahtlig]

I agree that Mangagamer is working on some quality titles (that I'm not necessarily interested in).  At the same time, it's also true that MG has thrown quality standards out the window seeing their willingness to work with Hentai Industries.  It's a matter of perspective.

 

While in principle 1 good title is still 1 good title even though it's buried under a pile of trash releases, a deluge of trash titles harms the reputation of the medium as a whole.  Localization companies are the face of the VN medium.  What they choose to release, and how they promote it, creates a lasting impression on outsiders looking in.  If companies like Mangagamer / JAST churn out low-budget nukige and plaster the Internet with porny banner ads, then that's how the medium will be viewed: as porn.  That makes it really hard as a fan to drum up interest in the medium, because newcomers start with the misconception that VNs are just trashy cartoon porn.  That's where Wahfuu's coming from.

 

Personally, I don't mind if Mangagamer chooses to localize a wide variety of titles for different tastes.  We need more variety.  But they better be GOOD titles of their respective genres, or I'm going to call them on it.  Most of their nukige releases are shameless cash grabs.  I understand that this is necessary for their business model to work.  Doesn't mean I have to like it.  Nukige sell because they seem to attract people that are more willing to pay to play.  If more consumers of non-nukige put in their dollar vote (and sales were proportional to the actual quality of a title), MG wouldn't need to churn out low-budget nukige just to stay profitable.  As it stands, many of the same people just buy every title to support the market.  While this helps keep Mangagamer in business, it also incentivizes them to flood the market with low quality titles.

 

For some perspective, Mangagamer's story titles release in Japan for ~$100.  Mangagamer sells them for $40-50.  Mangagamer's Softhouse-Seal titles sell for $25; they release in Japan for $20.  Mangagamer is providing a huge discount on the story titles--but they still don't sell.  Meanwhile the low-budget nukige sell at full price AND THEN SOME and turn the same or greater volume.  It's nice that Mangagamer still *bothers* to release story titles, given the apathy English consumers show for them and the much greater effort that goes into localizing them.

[Wahfuu]

Taking everything moogy says as undeniable truth is bad idea. Moogy isn't interested in nukiges and moege, therefore obviously he ignored the fact that MG reached deals with CLOCKUP and Noesis, but its significant achievement and you have to be completely oblivious to the genre to call them "shit low-profit tiltes".

No, that's true, but considering that is almost entirely what MangaGamer deals with now is pretty telling. Even Moege's are becoming rarer and rarer amidst the onslaught of terrible shit softhouse seal and softhouse seal-like garbage. I said that Nukige's are a neccessary evil, and while I'm not the most enthusiastic about moege, I'm not against them, (even though I don't see many titles that seem that good) nor would I protest their release.

No, I simply think MangaGamer doesn't care about the medium at all. They simply care about staying afloat on their boat of shitty sex games that ruin the reputation of VN's. I've been saying this for awhile, way before I got into the TLwiki crowd. Their 1 decent title every year that might not even turn profit or outsell one of these sex games doesn't cover for that.

(Btw, It's not moogy this info comes from.)

[Novel21]

Do there hate Mangagamer for to sold Games with more Nukige than story? I don't really hate Mangagamer, I hate more Jast USA than Mangagamer since Mangagamer are more fast with translation than Jast USA, Jast USA are so slow with translation

[Okami]

Well I don't hate them I just disapprove of the way they are doing things. As for time of their translations it is normal that they would translate faster when they translate Nukige than story-driven VNs since Nuikige are usually a lot shorter and easier to translate. Also saying "Games with more Nukige than story" is an incorrect sentence since Nukige are games that are based on sex/porn so game either is or isn't Nukige, it is type of games not something that a game can have more or less in it.

[sanahtlig]

No, I simply think MangaGamer doesn't care about the medium at all.

I don't think that's true, since they do still devote significant resources to working on non-nukige (even though such titles don't appear profitable).  Keep in mind, they could have two teams working on localization, one on nukige, and the other non-nukige, and the nukige team would churn out 4-5 titles in the time it took the non-nukige team to get one out.  That may seem like they're putting more resources into translating nukige, when actually they're splitting their resources evenly.

 

 

 

They simply care about staying afloat on their boat of shitty sex games that ruin the reputation of VN's. I've been saying this for awhile, way before I got into the TLwiki crowd. Their 1 decent title every year that might not even turn profit or outsell one of these sex games doesn't cover for that.

The "reputation of the medium" is not a concern for many customers.  For most, all they care about is the final product they get to play.  1 decent title a year is still 1 decent title a year, whether it's buried in crappy releases or not.  How many decent, original titles has JAST released this year?  I count one (Yumina the Ethereal).

[Wahfuu]

I don't think that's true, since they do still devote significant resources to working on non-nukige (even though such titles don't appear profitable).  Keep in mind, they could have two teams working on localization, one on nukige, and the other non-nukige, and the nukige team would churn out 4-5 titles in the time it took the non-nukige team to get one out.  That may seem like they're putting more resources into translating nukige, when actually they're splitting their resources evenly.

This is due to reputation, i'm pretty sure. MangaGamer doesn't want to be known as simply a 'porn company'. I'm pretty sure if MangaGamer was allowed to, it would become a nukige factory. However not everyone wants to be associated with a porn company and CIRCUS doesn't want that on their brand either.

The "reputation of the medium" is not a concern for many customers.  For most, all they care about is the final product they get to play.  1 decent title a year is still 1 decent title a year, whether it's buried in crappy releases or not.  How many decent, original titles has JAST released this year?  I count one (Yumina the Ethereal).

For one; this has never been about JAST vs MangaGamer so I have no idea why you brought that up as it's largely irrelevant to the discussion of MangaGamers buisness pratice. If we're going down that road, though, I'd say JAST's release of Saya this year is far better than anything MangaGamer has released in the past year. And yes, even if it was fan-translated before. It's still worth more than anything the nukige superslide has fed us.

I'm not on the lines of '1 decent title a year is 1 decent title a year'. I think more along the lines of '1 decent title a year is only 1 decent title a year'.

 

[Okami]

The "reputation of the medium" is not a concern for many customers.  For most, all they care about is the final product they get to play.  1 decent title a year is still 1 decent title a year, whether it's buried in crappy releases or not.  How many decent, original titles has JAST released this year?  I count one (Yumina the Ethereal).

 

 

 

Mangagamer didn't do any batter it released this year 1 non-nukige title + 1 fandisc and both are long 10-30 hours while Jast title Yumina the Ethereal is 50+ hours so in terms of work jast has probably done more on non-nukige titles. Also look at how many original decent non-nukige titles is jast working on right now (I count 4 or 5) 2 of them are very long 50+ hours.  Not to mention that jast titles are half nukige half distant titles while mangagamer titles are 80% nukige.

[RusAnon]

deluge of trash titles harms the reputation of the medium as a whole. Localization companies are the face of the VN medium. What they choose to release, and how they promote it, creates a lasting impression on outsiders looking in. If companies like Mangagamer / JAST churn out low-budget nukige and plaster the Internet with porny banner ads, then that's how the medium will be viewed: as porn.

Didn't you learn already from your Yumina attempts? For everyone outside existing fanbase any sexual content counts as dumb cartoon porn game. Quality doesn't matter at all.

Besides, G-Collections, Peach Princess and other companies created such solid foundation of translated kusoges, that whatever MG does, its not going to change anything.

No, that's true, but considering that is almost entirely what MangaGamer deals with now is pretty telling. Even Moege's are becoming rarer and rarer

They licensed 5 moeges plus 2 IG titles this year alone. This is more than they did in any other year.

their boat of shitty sex games

Once again. Titles like Eroge! are sold for 45$ per digital copy, higher than their usual non-nukige stuff. These are top-tier nukiges.

Mangagamer didn't do any batter it released this year 1 non-nukige title + 1 fandisc and both are long 10-30 hours

Ef is also going to be released this year.

Not to mention that Yumina was in JAST queue for many years, breaking multiple deadlines.

[sanahtlig]

I brought up JAST because while they have a higher ratio of non-nukige, their actual output is so low that they end up releasing the same or less decent, original titles a year as Mangagamer.  While Saya no Uta is a great game, and I recommend that people buy it, JAST didn't actually contribute to the pool of translated titles with that license.  More attention on great games is fine and all, and I don't mind giving some more money to Nitroplus, but JAST didn't really provide a service there (unless you count removing mosaics as a substantial contribution).  JAST's and Mangagamer's models are both flawed, in their own ways.  Let's not even mention MoeNovel...

 

 

 

This is due to reputation, i'm pretty sure. MangaGamer doesn't want to be known as simply a 'porn company'. I'm pretty sure if MangaGamer was allowed to, it would become a nukige factory. However not everyone wants to be associated with a porn company and CIRCUS doesn't want that on their brand either.

This reads like pure prejudice.  You've made an accusation based on suspicion that can't be proven (that Mangagamer doesn't care about the medium and just wants to profit off nukige), and morphs in ridiculous ways to resist being refuted (they release non-nukige, but they don't really WANT to).  Why would Circus care what games MG chooses to license?  I'm pretty sure they barely give the English market a second thought.  And if they did care, I'd think MG's partnership with Hentai Industries would've been a no-go.  Because as of now, their beloved Da capo series is being sold alongside some of the trashiest nukige the market has seen outside DLsite.

 

That said, I agree with you that it's a dangerous situation when market dynamics provide little or no incentive for releasing quality titles anymore.  Over time business practices tend to adjust to align with market incentives.  While MG may continue sinking resources into releasing unprofitable or marginally profitable story titles for the time being, there's no guarantee that this will be true in the future-- 2 years, 5 years, 10 years from now.  Leadership changes, employee turnover happens, market stresses force adaptation.  Unless the incentives change, the long-term outlook for Mangagamer's non-nukige projects isn't looking so hot.

[RusAnon]

Because as of now, their beloved Da capo series is being sold alongside some of the trashiest nukige the market has seen outside DLsite.

Actually, thats good point about DLSite, Getchu and all other shops which sell VNs — all of them sell all-ages, moege, nukige, h-rpg and everything else alongside, and none of "non-nukige" companies care about it. So whole "brand image trashed by porn" concept is pure en-fans speculation based on flawed western moral which doesn't exist in Japan.

[Wahfuu]

Didn't you learn already from your Yumina attempts? For everyone outside existing fanbase any sexual content counts as dumb cartoon porn game. Quality doesn't matter at all.

Besides, G-Collections, Peach Princess and other companies created such solid foundation of translated kusoges, that whatever MG does, its not going to change anything.

[Okami]

Actually, thats good point about DLSite, Getchu and all other shops which sell VNs — all of them sell all-ages, moege, nukige, h-rpg and everything else alongside, and none of "non-nukige" companies care about it. So whole "brand image trashed by porn" concept is pure en-fans speculation based on flawed western moral which doesn't exist in Japan.

 

 

I don't think it is fair to compare Japanese VN market and western one since in japan VN are very popular and they are popular for a long time so Japanese people know what VNs are (that there are nukige, eroge, all-ages VN etc.) so Japanese market doesn't have to care about VN image. But in the west most people don't know what VNs are so when they see bunch of nukige on those sites they will assume that all VNs are like that.

[sanahtlig]

I don't think it is fair to compare Japanese VN market and western one since in japan VN are very popular and they are popular for a long time so Japanese people know what VNs are (that there are nukige, eroge, all-ages VN etc.) so Japanese market doesn't have to care about VN image. But in the west most people don't know what VNs are so when they see bunch of nukige on those sites they will assume that all VNs are like that.

You missed the point of that quote.  That quote was in response to speculation that particular Japanese developers care about / have a say in the titles Mangagamer licenses from other developers--that the Japanese developers have some sort of fixation on their brand image in the West and don't want to be associated with inferior brands.  That particular quote was not discussing how consumers view brands.