What differentiate a VN from other games with dialogues/texts

[GLM4475]

This question popped into my mind after searching some games at VNDB which I think belong to VN category but voila, those games aren't registered there. If my opinion of including those games as VNs is wrong, then what differentiate a VN from other games with dialogues/texts?

[Eclipsed]

What type of games were you searching for that weren't on VNDB?

[Kurokusari]

What type of games were you searching for that weren't on VNDB?

Idk but my experience like this was with Agarest. That game had choices, flags, affection points, and heroine endings. The only one missing is the heroine route. That and it was gameplay heavy. I mean, the gameplay could take you around 300 hours to complete it and that's just gameplay alone. 

 

Also it destroys the story and the translation was crap (not really related). The concept was good but it was executed horribly. 

 

This question popped into my mind after searching some games at VNDB which I think belong to VN category but voila, those games aren't registered there. If my opinion of including those games as VNs is wrong, then what differentiate a VN from other games with dialogues/texts?

 

As for what differentiates it, idk you're comparing it to something too broad. Just about every RPG game has dialogues/text. Heck even some FPS games has them.

But for the sake of a glaring answer, it's the amount. VNs without gameplay is 99% dialog and 1% choices.

[firecat]

the game either needs to follow the story or allow the player to follow the story, that what counts to be a VN. RPG do not allow you to follow/allow you to be reading the story until a level/gameplay is reach. this type game is not a story its a never ending loop that the player must do until they get it. FPS is unrealistic (ya like you gonna live after you been shot 7 times), too much dialogue within the gameplay and you have to follow orders not be with the game. lastly hidden object games dont count, 99% of your time will be wasted on looking for items and 1% on stories that only last for 1 minute.

[Darklord Rooke]

Interactive Storytelling is defined by Crawford (he wrote a book) as being the process where a story is created out of the actions of the player - decision by decision, moment by moment, scene by scene. It is clear that Visual Novels are a subgenre of the Interactive Storytelling genre (KNs are not though.) It is also clear that the genre of Interactive Storytelling describes STORYTELLING techniques, and not gameplay. If a game has only VN storytelling techniques, then it is a Visual Novel. If the gameplay is also an attraction, then it's a game which contains VN storytelling techniques. 

 

 “Visual Novels” have 3 things. 1) They are novels and should be written as such. Therefore they must contain a narrative prose 2) They present choices to the user through the narrative (or dialogue,) these choices allows the user to affect the story. This is different to allowing the user to affect the narrative through gameplay decisions 3) They contain images which depict the setting of each scene of the story.

 

If the game does not contain images which depict each scene of the story, then it might be Interactive Fiction (which conform to the first 2 of the above rules, but not the third.) On the other hand if the game does not contain choices, it might be a kinetic novel. If it doesn’t contain narrative prose, than describing it by its parent genre (an interactive story) might be appropriate.

 

Fuwa’s future database of games may include those games which are so similar to VNs that they’re commonly mistaken as such (properly labelled of course.) It does seem to be what the consumer wants.

[Decay]

I would disagree with condition 2. Higurashi and Umineko are still visual novels in my book. Choice is not required.

[Kelebek1]

Yeah I don't think they require choice either. There's lots of kinetic novels which I think anyone would still classify as visual novels. ChuuShingura being my favourite novel has no choices at all in its veeeery long story.

[Darklord Rooke]

That’s fair enough, but if the term Visual Novel is being used to refer to all such novels regardless of whether they contain choices, and Kinetic Novel is used to refer to only those VNs without choices, then I would suggest that a term also be required to refer to only those with choices. 

[Getsuya]

Weren't Umineko and Higurashi sound novels? It seems most mystery/horror VNs are put into that genre.

[Decay]

That’s fair enough, but if the term Visual Novel is being used to refer to all such novels regardless of whether they contain choices, and Kinetic Novel is used to refer to only those VNs without choices, then I would suggest that a term also be required to refer to only those with choices. 

[Getsuya]

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B5%E3%82%A6%E3%83%B3%E3%83%89%E3%83%8E%E3%83%99%E3%83%AB

 

Sorry for it only being in Japanese, but here's a list of every game marketed as being a sound novel. The phrase was actually coined by Chunsoft for their horror/mystery VNs for the SNES; Otogirisou and Kamaitachi no Yoru, both of which had choices. The 'sound novel' term was invented because the intent was that the music and atmospheric soundwork would draw the reader in to the story. Unlike games with pretty girls who could just use CG and stuff to bring in players, sound novels were worthless if they couldn't create a good atmosphere and put the players on edge, so the sound direction became a central concern. Generally the art wasn't impressive, and often sound novels use photos for their backgrounds. R07 wasn't doing anything new.

[Darklord Rooke]

Kinetic Novel is just some dumb marketing term made up by one of the major VN companies to try to make their choiceless VN more appealing. I don't know why a VN with choices needs a separate term. 

 

Dumb term or not it’s fairly widely used and endorsed by VNDB, which widens the use further (I have a problem with the term “visual novel” but what’s done is done is done.) What’s been done is the VN genre has already been divided into ‘games with choices’ and ‘games without choices,’ that act was accomplished as soon as the kinetic novel subcategory was formed. The only thing which hasn’t been done is the naming of an already formed group (that is - VNs with choices.)

 

Why should this group be named? Two reasons. For ease of reference, the group has already been formed and people may wish to refer to this sub-category. Also to reduce confusion, because since the Kinetic Novel category was formed the term ‘Visual Novel’ has been used to refer to only novels with choices, as well as to refer to the medium as a whole (EDIT: Check out Rockmandash's definition of Visual Novel for example - http://rockmandash12.kinja.com/the-beginners-guide-to-visual-novels-1541975662 )

[Darklord Rooke]

Choices refer to interactiveness in the story, well in this instance anyway. Interactive stories just tell the reader that they will have a modicum of control over their storytelling experience. It doesn’t imply their choices will have a ground-breaking impact on the end of the story, or even any impact at all. In fact there isn’t a gauge to tell you how much interactiveness is in a story just like there isn’t a gauge to tell you how “RPG” an “RPG” is before you buy it (looking at you Diablo 3.)

 

Categories are nothing more than convenient tags which tell the consumer the product in question will contain those elements associated with that tag. Nothing more, nothing less really.

 

Also I’m not a fan of the “illusion of choice” hysteria creeping all over the internet to justify the argument that choices had zero impact. Like the end is all that’s important and the journey doesn’t matter. But Mass Effect 3 was slightly different in that people expect certain things from a Bioware game, and I think expectation was building up that their choices would matter at the end.

 

And yes, customers tend to decide what categories media go into because that’s who categories are for. Which is why some authors write a sci-fi book, only to find it gets placed in the fantasy aisle of a bookstore. Or vice versa. Or an author writes a fantasy and it gets placed in general fiction (Jonathan Strange for example.) And it’s generally a publishers call how to market a book, unless you’re Indie.

[Darklord Rooke]

How exactly a principle like illusion of choice leads to the conclusion that choices have no impact and the end is more important than the journey went over me,