Proper/Correct Fan translation

[Joachim]

~My Prevailing Conclusions Regarding the Low Levels of Fan Engagement/Forum Activity~

Of the members we have, either we don't have enough die-hard "super" fans, or, more accurately, we've not stirred up enough hype around VNs to draw people in. The way I see it though, these forums were created with the sole purpose of making VNs popular. Thus even if the lurkers remain lurkers, the fact that they see this forum as an interesting-enough place to deserve their lurking, can only be a good thing in the long run.

To wait for the community to craft itself is just wishful thinking. You believe the number will be the key to success. Your hope is to have a few quality posters that will keep it alive. Let just wait for others to care is the true meaning of this.

[harry_kinomoto]

@Joachim:

First things first, while forum activity is indeed the only marker of fan engagement we have now, it's important to remember that there are times where this isn't the case. I think the initiatives we take need to be targeted towards the latter; not the former. I added something to my previous post, not sure if you saw it:

Fan engagement should be considered beyond the context of forum posts alone. Aaeru-wise, I think she's being pretty vocal about trying to recruit helpers - her efforts imo being met with decent success. I was pleasantly surprised to come back after my 2-week hiatus to find so many new mods around!

That being said I know there have been some very good initiatives (click!) started out by members on this forum that, imo, could really benefit the whole VN scene if completed, but unfortunately seem to have garnered very lacklustre interest thus far. Am quite tempted to pin them, personally, so as to give them maximum visibility...

****

That being said....

wait for the community to craft itself

Lasting communities, which is what we want, take a bit of time to create. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0, which are here today and forgotten tomorrow, are the things that get overnight popularity, and not necessarily what we are comparing against.

You believe the number will be the key to success.

Yes, I do, actually. Popularity and recognition for VNs by a wider audience is what we are aiming for, after all~

Your hope is to have a few quality posters that will keep it alive.

I explicitly warned against this happening precisely because I agreed with your points about the danger of "individual-centered" communities. Myself I'm actually quite good at making noise on forums etc and as such I'm a really keen to find other people to start making themselves heard instead. You mentioned you have some ideas for topics: I'd encourage you to prepare and post them ASAP!

Let just wait for others to care is the true meaning of this.

Not really. To put it in clearer terms, my message was that I think we've been working hard and doing some things right. However, we mustn't rest on our laurels, and keep working and brainstorming the best ways to ensure this community attracts the attention it deserves.

[Joachim]

@Joachim:

First things first, while forum activity is indeed the only marker of fan engagement we have now, it's important to remember that there are times where this isn't the case. I think the initiatives we take need to be targeted towards the latter; not the former. I added something to my previous post, not sure if you saw it:

You are asking people to learn japanese for a couple of years, and then to translate thousands of lines for peanuts. And you hope for this people to come by themselves and be able to stand this kind of pressure. People need guiding, wich is lacking right now.

That being said....

Lasting communities, which is what we want, take a bit of time to create. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0, which are here today and forgotten tomorrow, are the things that get overnight popularity, and not necessarily what we are comparing against.

Yes, I do, actually. Popularity and recognition for VNs by a wider audience is what we are aiming for, after all~

People are still getting rick rolled though. The quality matters in its longevity, if I dare say so x).

Forum with quality might not get as much viral effect, but their members grows steadily, people get involved, and stay much longer. On the other hand, a forum with huge number of people won't be as focused, because you need a bigger team, and people's interest is naturally hard to keep.

I think you are confusing number of people visiting the site and downloading content, with people actually writing, reading and getting involved. If what you want is people getting to know vns then you just have to provide content. But if what you want are people leading projects, then you need people involved. And as I said earlier this means rolling up your sleeves and providing a considerable part of the forum's content.

I explicitly warned against this happening precisely because I agreed with your points about the danger of "individual-centered" communities. Myself I'm actually quite good at making noise on forums etc and as such I'm a really keen to find other people to start making themselves heard instead. You mentioned you have some ideas for topics: I'd encourage you to prepare and post them ASAP!

I'll need at least half a day if I want to post the kind of topic I would like to. I'll need some time to know if it's worth it.

Not really. To put it in clearer terms, my message was that I think we've been working hard and doing some things right. However, we mustn't rest on our laurels, and keep working to ensure this community attracts the attention it deserves.

It is true I haven't stayed long enough to judge.

[Tay]

wow, never thought the topic could get so deep. But this is what fascinate me about this community as a whole. There is a surprisingly large base of fans in the west and of course there will be differing opinion just like in any community.

I like the way Saber put this. It never fails to amaze me when I look at the random posts (this one was originally about fan translation quality) where super-deep Fuwa-philosophy happens! I love it.

Harry's post (link) is very well organized and helpful. It's given me a lot to think about, and several of those topics will appear in PM aimed his way. But my most favorite (favorite-est?) () part of his post was the following

That being said I know there have been some very good initiatives (click!) started out by members on this forum that, imo, could really benefit the whole VN scene if completed, but unfortunately seem to have garnered very lacklustre interest thus far. Am quite tempted to pin them, personally, so as to give them maximum visibility...

Here are the bullet points I want to contribute to this conversation:

• While Fuwanovel is new, we have come a LONG way in attracting visitors and members. Take a look at Aaeru's post about recent site traffic. Fantastic.
• While Fuwanovel is new, we have started a lot of interesting and fun discussion about extant games (see here and here)
• Fuwanovel's main site will soon feature all of the following: 1) Game information, 2) Game download torrents, 3) Forum links to useful discussion and support, 4)User-submitted reviews, 5) Custom walkthroughs, and more. This is an amazing VN reference source and a high quality VN distribution site.
• Like Harry pointed out: there are "some very good initiatives (click!) started out by members on this forum" that are worth reexamining

What does all of this tell us?

• I think it tells us that harry was right in saying, "I think we've been working hard and doing some things right. However, we mustn't rest on our laurels, and keep working to ensure this community attracts the attention it deserves." I think it's telling us that content is the key to bringing in new people and getting more active members of the community. And I think it tells us that we are each responsible for generating content.

With that said, my challenge is (in a general response to this thought: link): Go on! Blow us away. Give it your best shot and write a mind-blowing, half-day post. By doing so, you're gonna make Fuwanovel that much better, and we'll love anybody for it. I'm more guilty than anybody when it comes to posting too much, (and if it ever is too much, I'll luckily have Harry to tell me.) but I do it because 1) I love the VNs I'm talking about, and 2) I think more quality content is the answer.

[Joachim]

With that said, my challenge is (in a general response to this thought: link): Go on! Blow us away. Give it your best shot and write a mind-blowing, half-day post. By doing so, you're gonna make Fuwanovel that much better, and we'll love anybody for it. I'm more guilty than anybody when it comes to posting too much, (and if it ever is too much, I'll luckily have Harry to tell me.) but I do it because 1) I love the VNs I'm talking about, and 2) I think more quality content is the answer.

I plan on doing something like that as soon as I have the time. For now I have to focus on getting an apprenticeship and being accepted to get back to school again.

I want to write something entertaining and informative at the same time, which is hard enough as I can be ridiculously perfectionist. I am not good enough in expressing myself in english to be able to do that for now. And my knowledge of visual novels is paper thin to say the least. I'm going to learn as much as possible from you guys.

[Tief Blau]

@Joachim/Aaeru:

~Reasons Why People Lurk and Don't Post~

• -Naturally shy personalities
  
• -Intimidating/bully-prone forum atmosphere
  
• -Feelings of being excluded (possibly related to above, but see also Joachim's point about "individual-centered" forums getting dominated by very few people posting)
  
• -Don't know enough about the subject
  
• -Don't care enough about the subject (and therefore won't put effort in to posting)
  
• -Simply don't feel they have anything to say (can be related to not knowing, but can also be combated by making appropriately controversial topics that everyone will have opinions about. Eg: H-Scenes in VNs)
  

I will agree with the above 100%. I tend to lurk a lot and much of the above applies to me as well ( I'm also afraid it will look like I am spamming if I respond to everything I want to respond to). I've tried my hand at translating things and ironically enough it was 4chan that made me stop, I don't translate because of that anymore.

I think that this is a wonderful community with wonderful goals, and though fuwanovel is fairly new, I hope to help it grow and become one of the larger and healthy communities. The atmosphere here is one that challenges the 'old order' and will help usher in a new one. I feel that one reason the forums are so silent is because we lack an introduction for newer members to the VN community as a whole. I remember my first forum, I was overwhelmed with the sheer amount of content, and that took a while to get use to. I also know that with the IP boards, you can create a tiered system of hidden forums based on post count. So I think we should do something like that, only let new members see forums that are designed to introduce new members to vns, and the gradually move up and get use to everything.

For people like translators,and 'veterans' from the VN community who make new accounts can be put into a desperate group, so they don't have to go through the trouble of getting a high post count to view forums relating to more 'advanced' topics (such as translating).

I'm in favor of something like how xda is organized, its a little messy, and there are a lot of sub forums, but it gets the job done by splitting everything up.

Also to address the first post, I think that translation nowadays has to do with context vs localization. Do you choose to translate something as it is, such as steins gate with its 2chan lingo? Or do you localize it so it makes sense?

To those of the 'old order' the first one will seem better because they are the 'true fans', and there for any liberal translation and localization is wrong and inferior. But for a place like here I think its OK to have more localized translations. Since we are trying to build a community and give people exposure to something they have never had, we need to make it so that they will understand it so that they will come to like it and want to learn more.

Or something like that.

Sorry about any grammar/spelling errors, typing on a touchscreen is a bit of a new experience for me

[Tay]

Quick Add-In: I like the idea of having a beginner's section -- I think that would be a fantastic addition to the forums and (perhaps) main site.

[Saru]

~Reasons Why People Lurk and Don't Post~

• -Naturally shy personalities
  ...
  ...
  

[*]-Bad english. It's enough for me to read VN/to watch anime, even to translate VN, but actually speaking something or writing is another thing. I am just not sure, if my sentences are correct , or it's a purely engrish.

Also to address the first post, I think that translation nowadays has to do with context vs localization. Do you choose to translate something as it is, such as steins gate with its 2chan lingo? Or do you localize it so it makes sense?

In Soviet Russia russian anime fansub localization wins. Not sure if it is a good or not. Victorious side looks down onto followers of the old ways just as there happens the opposite.

[Tief Blau]

Forum with quality might not get as much viral effect, but their members grows steadily, people get involved, and stay much longer. On the other hand, a forum with huge number of people won't be as focused, because you need a bigger team, and people's interest is naturally hard to keep.

I think you are confusing number of people visiting the site and downloading content, with people actually writing, reading and getting involved. If what you want is people getting to know vns then you just have to provide content. But if what you want are people leading projects, then you need people involved. And as I said earlier this means rolling up your sleeves and providing a considerable part of the forum's content.

Gonna keep this topic alive, it's interesting.

This is an interesting argument, and I hate to raise this counter argument, but... Quality is a bit of a subjective word. What I may see as a Quality post may not be one to you, and the same goes to every reader. People who have been on the VN scene for a long time may consider long and detailed analysis about games and translation notes a "quality" post, but for someone new to the scene, it may just be confusing and seem like junk (at the time). So someone new may consider those discussions about "which character is the best" a quality post.

Which goes back to my previous point about target audience, and a multi-tier forum system. You have to face the reality, that the new(er) members will usually outnumber the old(er) members in large forums, and it is natural for them to form groups and such. With the purpose of Fuwanovel to "spread VN's to the world" we will be seeing discussions about "favorite character" or a lot of romaji japanese conversations (OMG KAWAII DESU NE!?), it would just be normal for our target audience, they are new to this. OK, so I might be overstating it a little too much, but if you were to expose someone to everything at once, they would gravitate towards what they understand the most.

Take me for example, I pretty much only post in two forums, because I can contribute the most there.

And I completely forgot what my original argument was...

[Lycoris Virens]

Somehow, the thread went from quality of translations to the state of the forums. Fan involvement can't expected to be high for visual novels as in the first place, this is a pretty solitary activity.

I would have to disagree with some of the quality expectations for visual novels. Honestly, if someone wants to translate something regardless of the output quality they are free to do so. Whether it is approved of is a different matter entirely, whether the translation is distributed at all is a different matter entirely. Hell, just because someone's translation is crap doesn't give anyone the sudden right to tell them what they do with THEIR time (Or at least it's not polite.)

It takes a completely different level of understanding to be able to read as opposed to be able to translate not to mention the enormous time investment required to even make a few scripts remotely understandable in another language. This doesn't even take into account the time required to make tools to extract and reinsert text into the games only to find there are font/spacing issues. This again takes time to fix.

Machine translations will be machine translations but when a person willingly takes the effort and time to do something, as long as they aren't hurting anyone or anything in the process there is absolutely no reason that they can't release what they made, no matter how much the ugly-duckling it is.

[Saru]

This doesn't even take into account the time required to make tools to extract and reinsert text into the games only to find there are font/spacing issues. This again takes time to fix.

Hackers usually do not actually translate. It's a work for translators. So, their 'times' are not overlapping. And if hacker has good skill, not much time required for him. Well, in compariosion with.

Machine translations will be machine translations but when a person willingly takes the effort and time to do something, as long as they aren't hurting anyone or anything in the process there is absolutely no reason that they can't release what they made, no matter how much the ugly-duckling it is.

Time and effort for good human translation >>>> edited machine translation. And if most of readers even cannot see difference between them, or not care (just give me any translation, they say, good translation can up fun from reading, but i'm fine with anything readable, they say), that's... frustrating. And leads to great loss of interest to translations.

[REtransInternational]

Hackers usually do not actually translate. It's a work for translators. So, their 'times' are not overlapping. And if hacker has good skill, not much time required for him. Well, in compariosion with.

Time and effort for good human translation >>>> edited machine translation. And if most of readers even cannot see difference between them, or not care (just give me any translation, they say, good translation can up fun from reading, but i'm fine with anything readable, they say), that's... frustrating. And leads to great loss of interest to translations.

It should be kept in mind that in the end it is the consumers who decide, and giving them what they want is going to be the way to grow. Expending effort to go beyond that can seem frustrating but that's the reality of it. Machine translation vs human translation has always been controversial because human translators fear of being replaced by a machine. Although that is not going to happen soon, they will still fight against it because systems are constantly improving. Hybrid approaches are likely to become commonplace in the near future, so translators should learn to work with and improve the technology rather than fight against it. Currently, HT has the accuracy advantage but are at huge disadvantage (several orders of magnitude) with speed, MT has a huge speed advantage and accuracy disadvantage. There does not seem to be much interest in making human translator faster (is that even possible?), but much research happens for improving MT accuracy. That's why they should work together to improve both. Overall it is about value; as a consumer, what is the balance between accuracy and speed that you want? Going forward I expect we will see this tradeoff diminish.