Proper/Correct Fan translation

[Saber]

I recently read the translation quality check by amaterasu in here http://amaterasu.tindabox.net/blog/?p=771

I want to ask whether you guys think that they are right or wrong or even right and wrong, and the reason why you think so. Mind you, this is a pretty old blog post (about two years ago), but I have recently stumbled upon it, so to speak.

I think that they make a fair point about fan translation, in that you should have an adequate knowledge in both language to translate. I myself have seen a few translation patches in the past (not from here of course) that looks like it came straight out of a machine. And of course when I try to use a machine translation, it gives the same result! That could be quite frustrating sometimes. Of course as of now, I have very rarely seen this type of bad translation (or I don't care to look for one), but I would like to know what you guys think.

What do you think about this topic? what level of fluency do you think should be needed or is acceptable for someone to translate a visual novel? and do you agree with what they're saying?

[dfallengod]

You seem very concern ^^ well the most appropriate level should be N2 or should I say recommended...

but still its basically on how difficult the writing is.

If the writing is almost at the level is very much easy probably even barely N2 or N3 but if the writing level is too high standard or hard the best is N2 or higher....

lower than N3 is a No-No....

I already played the games of those translated already, in japanese version....

And I can tell how good they are...

Ixrec point of view is correct...

but the problem doesn't only comes from that it comes from the translator himself/herself..

because the teacher of japanese only gives you the foundation of the language, its up to you to either to expand your knowledge of the subject itself or not.

[Saber]

thanks for your input. It's not that I'm concerned, it's just an issue that I'm very interested in and I would like to know what everyone thinks about this. Yes I do agree that you should be at around N2, but it depends again on the context. I haven't taken the test yet though and still put myself at only N3 level. I know how difficult it could be for a non japanaese native to translate some japanese meaning. I hope to be able to reach N2 and even N1 sometimes in the future.

As for the knowledge, all subjects are like that, especially language. I personally know this from English as I worked hard to reach the level of fluency that I have right now. I just wish that I had started japanese sooner.

so, thank you again for your response~

[Guest]

I wrote a really good response to that post by Ixrec in the comments. but he deleted it.

Oh well.

I was condemning Ixrec for being an elitist

He. like Moogy. Is a worshipper of Japanese story tellers.

And believes that it is actually a form of sacrilege to translate anything in ways that doesnt fully respect the brilliance of the original, which I am not disagreeing with.

But his desire to see them translated properly is at asshole level.

They are elitist. They are part of the older order of fan translators following on the footsteps of people like Agilis, Asceai, Insani.org (which I can't say very much about because it is before my time) and they despise us. because they associate people like us with people who do SHIT translations.

While they will never admit it, it is all part of the culture of: I wake up today, and I will find new ways to look down on others. I will find ways to show I am intellectually-superior. You are all inferior. (aka 4chan)

One of the reasons why I made Fuwanovel was precisely because I couldn't stand that kind of culture.

For the normal fans and fan translators out there, we needed a place to talk about visual novel translations without fearing being looked down on (we are all learners). You can translate. And we celebrate fan translation. And no you don't have to start as a superhuman. You can get help here. And no people here won't look down on you.

And so humility is what's valuable here. Fuwan exists to forge a new culture.

I think in the long run, this culture of humility is what's best for visual novel fan translations in the West. Not the older order which bought into the idea of "Look at all these shit translators LOLROFL!" that is so characteristic of what society has become.

The line of reasoning that elitists use is usually, "You're trashing my favourite stories!". To which I respond,

No they are not trashing your favourite stories. Your favourite stories are still there. They still exist word for word in its original form. What you mean to say is that they fear that the original work or the original JP author will be viewed in a lesser light than they deserve.

My response: so when people read unofficial fan translations by some non-paid non-qualified random on the internet, they don't expect to be reading the original. It is a derivative of the original. They are reading an unendorsed fan translated rewrite. So the best opinion they can form is a critique of the fan work but not a full understanding of the extent of the original author's work. That is why the original author is not 'trashed'. The only way you can expect it to resemble the original is if you 1) paid a professional. 2) it is endorsed by the JP author. 3) the translation group has a good reputation.

That is why reputation is so important on the internet. It is an intangible credit and it governs user experience. If none of the 3 points are valid, then can you still say the original work had been 'trashed'?

That is why I thought to ask Vax to add a way for users to rate the fluency of the English in the translation. (Not the translation accuracy!)

The second point I wanted to make was that

My believe is that to improve the quality of translation, the only way is to increase the fan base. Because fan translators are just fans. They read some visual novel some years ago, proceeded to learn Japanese (you dont have to know JP to watch anime. it's only visual novels), and then they became fan translators. That's how it is for many many people. When you increase the fan base, you increase the number of translators.

When you have many translators in the frontline, competition causes quality to go up. Increased demand causes quality to go up. Increased demand causes translator population to increase. This is how translation quality goes up. This is how you get more games into English.

There is no other way.

....(unless someone has a million dollars)

[Ryoji]

My skill in Japanese is OK. I can watch anime with no subtitles. In fact the majority of the anime I watch is without subtitles. The problem I have is written Japanese. Can I translate anything? Probably not. I wish I could, so I could help with translating the Visual Novels that need it.

They are elitist. They are part of the older order of fan translators following on the footsteps of people like Agilis, Asceai, Insani.org (which I can't say very much about because it is before my time) and they despise us. because they associate people like us with people who do SHIT translations.

I believe is what Aaeru is trying to do.

My believe is that to improve the quality of translation, the only way is to increase the fan base. Because fan translators are just fans. They read some visual novel some years ago, proceeded to learn Japanese (you dont have to know JP to watch anime. it's only visual novels), and then they became fan translators. That's how it is for many many people. When you increase the fan base, you increase the number of translators.

If I can help with the forum and website so she can work on translating more, ill do it. More fans=More translators. IF I cannot be a translator yet, I can sure as hell help with the website to spread the word on Visual Novels, to get more fans. I want to give back to this community.

[harry_kinomoto]

...

And believes that it is actually a form of sacrilege to translate anything in ways that doesnt fully respect the brilliance of the original, which I am not disagreeing with.

But his desire to see them translated properly is at asshole level.

They are elitist. They are part of the older order of fan translators following on the footsteps of people like Agilis, Asceai, Insani.org (which I can't say very much about because it is before my time) and they despise us. because they associate people like us with people who do SHIT translations.

...

First off, please can I get everyone a glass of carrot juice?? :3

Ok. Now, I think this issue is very simple. If people are to seek to defame us because they think our translations will be rubbish, there is only one way out.

Make 101% sure that the translations we produce are NOT rubbish!

QED~ B)

My believe is that to improve the quality of translation, the only way is to increase the fan base. Because fan translators are just fans. They read some visual novel some years ago, proceeded to learn Japanese (you dont have to know JP to watch anime. it's only visual novels), and then they became fan translators. That's how it is for many many people. When you increase the fan base, you increase the number of translators.

When you have many translators in the frontline, competition causes quality to go up. Increased demand causes quality to go up. Increased demand causes translator population to increase. This is how translation quality goes up. This is how you get more games into English.

There is no other way.

You forgot love, tolerance and [pink]encouragement[/pink]

No seriously though, you did mention how better-than-you cultures can be detrimental for the development of translations and I think you're right on that too. There's a lot to be said for how a positive community can inspire more and better translators out of a grateful community.

[dfallengod]

I wrote a really good response to that post by Ixrec in the comments. but he deleted it.

Oh well.

I was condemning Ixrec for being an elitist

He. like Moogy. Is a worshipper of Japanese story tellers.

And believes that it is actually a form of sacrilege to translate anything in ways that doesnt fully respect the brilliance of the original, which I am not disagreeing with.

But his desire to see them translated properly is at asshole level.

They are elitist. They are part of the older order of fan translators following on the footsteps of people like Agilis, Asceai, Insani.org (which I can't say very much about because it is before my time) and they despise us. because they associate people like us with people who do SHIT translations.

While they will never admit it, it is all part of the culture of: I wake up today, and I will find new ways to look down on others. I will find ways to show I am intellectually-superior. You are all inferior. (aka 4chan)

One of the reasons why I made Fuwanovel was precisely because I couldn't stand that kind of culture.

For the normal fans and fan translators out there, we needed a place to talk about visual novel translations without fearing being looked down on (we are all learners). You can translate. And we celebrate fan translation. And no you don't have to start as a superhuman. You can get help here. And no people here won't look down on you.

And so humility is what's valuable here. Fuwan exists to forge a new culture.

I think in the long run, this culture of humility is what's best for visual novel fan translations in the West. Not the older order which bought into the idea of "Look at all these shit translators LOLROFL!" that is so characteristic of what society has become.

The line of reasoning that elitists use is usually, "You're trashing my favourite stories!". To which I respond,

No they are not trashing your favourite stories. Your favourite stories are still there. They still exist word for word in its original form. What you mean to say is that they fear that the original work or the original JP author will be viewed in a lesser light than they deserve.

My response: so when people read unofficial fan translations by some non-paid non-qualified random on the internet, they don't expect to be reading the original. It is a derivative of the original. They are reading an unendorsed fan translated rewrite. So the best opinion they can form is a critique of the fan work but not a full understanding of the extent of the original author's work. That is why the original author is not 'trashed'. The only way you can expect it to resemble the original is if you 1) paid a professional. 2) it is endorsed by the JP author. 3) the translation group has a good reputation.

That is why reputation is so important on the internet. It is an intangible credit and it governs user experience. If none of the 3 points are valid, then can you still say the original work had been 'trashed'?

That is why I thought to ask Vax to add a way for users to rate the fluency of the English in the translation. (Not the translation accuracy!)

The second point I wanted to make was that

My believe is that to improve the quality of translation, the only way is to increase the fan base. Because fan translators are just fans. They read some visual novel some years ago, proceeded to learn Japanese (you dont have to know JP to watch anime. it's only visual novels), and then they became fan translators. That's how it is for many many people. When you increase the fan base, you increase the number of translators.

When you have many translators in the frontline, competition causes quality to go up. Increased demand causes quality to go up. Increased demand causes translator population to increase. This is how translation quality goes up. This is how you get more games into English.

There is no other way.

....(unless someone has a million dollars)

Aae-chan Ixrec isn't a elistist he just state the facts but a extreme way LoL

thou he maybe an ass often but he is a good guy I think

anyway try to see this conversation below ^^

<Anon1> i went back to TLing for a bit cuz i was bored

<Anon1> and i spent like

<Anon1> 15 seconds on 1 line that was actually a bit meh

<Anon1> but

<Anon1> that made me think

<Anon1> "how do i put up with this shit?"

<Anon1> TLing is stupid for many reasons

<Anon1> 1. it doesnt make as much sense in another language

<Anon1> 2. it butchers the original text

<Anon1> 3. it encourages those otherwise not able to read the original that they dont need to learn how to

<Anon1> granted, without the popularization of such products, people would never think of learning the language int he first place

<Anon1> i would much rather teach a person how to read a VN than TL one myself

<Anon1> if i could teach people, they could do the TLing in my place

<Anon2> some people just refuse to do that though

<Anon1> EXACTLy

<Anon4> meh people tend to be lazy in learning japanese

<Anon3> it's not like it was for the sake of money that we do Tling

<Anon1> yea

<Anon1> its for the sake of sharing what we enjoy

<Anon1> but to what extent is it so much of what we enjoyed?

<Anon1> people who want to read these TLs care more for "proper english" which in reality is a butcher of the true product

<Anon1> like really, i enjoy the thought of sharing something to people

<Anon1> but when i see the flip side of it they dont see;

<Anon1> how much the story changes

<Anon1> how much gets taken out

<Anon1> the amount of work it takes on my end to do all of it

<Anon1> it all turns out to seem worthless

<Anon1> it depends i guess

<Anon1> i dont love the english language like a lot of people do

<Anon1> some people think it's amazing to turn japanese into english; their own native language

<Anon1> some people still prefer to read VNs in english , even if they can read it in japanese

<Anon2> well I do agree that english is just far too different from japanese that it's hard for translations to be truly accurate

<Anon2> I mean japanese is just a flowery language and english feels stiff in comparison

<Anon1> yea

<Anon1> the above reasons are why i dont pick a TL project easily

<Anon1> i want to pick a TL project, but it has to be one i truly want to commit too and i think is worth it

Anon1 : Graduated in Japan and also a JPLT N1 person

Anon2 : JPLT N2 Person

Anon3 : Japanese beginner

Anon4 : Programmer and barely JPLT N2

Well its a fact btw I can tell the diff between a JAP-ENG TL from a the original content..

which is why I play it in jap....

but doesn't mean I didn't check the quality of each work in the vn community...

I can tell from the start whether they made it good or bad...

plus the fact that some translate some lines very exaggerating... cant stop to laugh on it...

they add words which is not base from the original context in some translations...

the only lack about it is that they need to be guided by a truly experience translator...

for those who started to do translations.

basically that way it will be good exprience. we dont need to mock one another's work

we just have to cooperate ^^.

Problem is is there any willing experience translator would

do such role?

and also is there anyone who will spend time for translating and commit for the very end?

If there is a person knows japanese at least barely JPLT N2 or N3 I'll will guide to you to Anon1 he will be willing to teach you ^^.

[Guest]

I'm sure people can work out a way. People who want to help. People who are seeking help. They will come together if there is a place to come together. And all we did was provide a place with the right culture for those to come together. The specifics I don't know. My japanese is not that good. I picked Da Capo III because the language is easy so I won't butcher it.

If the place is attractive and they don't get looked down on for asking, then people will participate.

As for the really bad translations. Competition and demand will up the number of quality translations we get. And user attributed reputation and recommendation will make sure more people play the ones that people recommend, and not the ones that people hardly any recommend. I don't see any problems here?

And plus. translators are not static. They improve.

Ixrec is completely part of the old order. What he cares for more than anything else, is the Amaterasu brand. I was speaking to Ixrec about Fuwanovel in November last year (actually him and Sheeta were the first 2 people I spoke to about this project), and it quickly dawned on me that Ixrec has nothing to do with us. He's not interested in sharing VNs, that's not his primary focus. Even Clannad_Man said the same thing.

[Saber]

Thank you for the replies! It is really good seeing many different opinions about this.

I was condemning Ixrec for being an elitist

He. like Moogy. Is a worshipper of Japanese story tellers.

And believes that it is actually a form of sacrilege to translate anything in ways that doesnt fully respect the brilliance of the original, which I am not disagreeing with.

But his desire to see them translated properly is at asshole level.

They are elitist. They are part of the older order of fan translators following on the footsteps of people like Agilis, Asceai, Insani.org (which I can't say very much about because it is before my time) and they despise us. because they associate people like us with people who do SHIT translations.

While they will never admit it, it is all part of the culture of: I wake up today, and I will find new ways to look down on others. I will find ways to show I am intellectually-superior. You are all inferior. (aka 4chan)

One of the reasons why I made Fuwanovel was precisely because I couldn't stand that kind of culture.

For the normal fans and fan translators out there, we needed a place to talk about visual novel translations without fearing being looked down on (we are all learners). You can translate. And we celebrate fan translation. And no you don't have to start as a superhuman. You can get help here. And no people here won't look down on you.

And so humility is what's valuable here. Fuwan exists to forge a new culture.

I think in the long run, this culture of humility is what's best for visual novel fan translations in the West. Not the older order which bought into the idea of "Look at all these shit translators LOLROFL!" that is so characteristic of what society has become.

The line of reasoning that elitists use is usually, "You're trashing my favourite stories!". To which I respond,

No they are not trashing your favourite stories. Your favourite stories are still there. They still exist word for word in its original form. What you mean to say is that they fear that the original work or the original JP author will be viewed in a lesser light than they deserve.

My response: so when people read unofficial fan translations by some non-paid non-qualified random on the internet, they don't expect to be reading the original. It is a derivative of the original. They are reading an unendorsed fan translated rewrite. So the best opinion they can form is a critique of the fan work but not a full understanding of the extent of the original author's work. That is why the original author is not 'trashed'. The only way you can expect it to resemble the original is if you 1) paid a professional. 2) it is endorsed by the JP author. 3) the translation group has a good reputation.

That is why reputation is so important on the internet. It is an intangible credit and it governs user experience. If none of the 3 points are valid, then can you still say the original work had been 'trashed'?

That is why I thought to ask Vax to add a way for users to rate the fluency of the English in the translation. (Not the translation accuracy!)

The second point I wanted to make was that

My believe is that to improve the quality of translation, the only way is to increase the fan base. Because fan translators are just fans. They read some visual novel some years ago, proceeded to learn Japanese (you dont have to know JP to watch anime. it's only visual novels), and then they became fan translators. That's how it is for many many people. When you increase the fan base, you increase the number of translators.

When you have many translators in the frontline, competition causes quality to go up. Increased demand causes quality to go up. Increased demand causes translator population to increase. This is how translation quality goes up. This is how you get more games into English.

There is no other way.

....(unless someone has a million dollars)

I don't know about Ixrec and others as I have not personally chat to them on the net, so I can't comment on the fact that he's an elitist or an asshole or whatever. I agree with their point of making a good translation, but as you say, that doesn't mean we should demean those that cannot translate properly, unless they really do not put effort to it( i.e. machine translation). Yeah, in the end, what matters is to improve a community as a whole and encourage translation, whether officially or not.

My skill in Japanese is OK. I can watch anime with no subtitles. In fact the majority of the anime I watch is without subtitles. The problem I have is written Japanese. Can I translate anything? Probably not. I wish I could, so I could help with translating the Visual Novels that need it.

I believe is what Aaeru is trying to do.

If I can help with the forum and website so she can work on translating more, ill do it. More fans=More translators. IF I cannot be a translator yet, I can sure as hell help with the website to spread the word on Visual Novels, to get more fans. I want to give back to this community.

Giving back to the community is definitely a good way to contribute and there are so many ways we can do it. You don't have to know japanese, nor be able to buy their product. As long as it will help, then the community will keep growing.

First off, please can I get everyone a glass of carrot juice?? :3

Ok. Now, I think this issue is very simple. If people are to seek to defame us because they think our translations will be rubbish, there is only one way out.

Make 101% sure that the translations we produce are NOT rubbish!

QED~ B)

You forgot love, tolerance and [pink]encouragement[/pink]

No seriously though, you did mention how better-than-you cultures can be detrimental for the development of translations and I think you're right on that too. There's a lot to be said for how a positive community can inspire more and better translators out of a grateful community.

Yes, I agree to this. Every translators should do their best~

Aae-chan Ixrec isn't a elistist he just state the facts but a extreme way LoL

thou he maybe an ass often but he is a good guy I think

anyway try to see this conversation below ^^

Anon1 : Graduated in Japan and also a JPLT N1 person

Anon2 : JPLT N2 Person

Anon3 : Japanese beginner

Anon4 : Programmer and barely JPLT N2

Well its a fact btw I can tell the diff between a JAP-ENG TL from a the original content..

which is why I play it in jap....

but doesn't mean I didn't check the quality of each work in the vn community...

I can tell from the start whether they made it good or bad...

plus the fact that some translate some lines very exaggerating... cant stop to laugh on it...

they add words which is not base from the original context in some translations...

the only lack about it is that they need to be guided by a truly experience translator...

for those who started to do translations.

basically that way it will be good exprience. we dont need to mock one another's work

we just have to cooperate ^^.

Problem is is there any willing experience translator would

do such role?

and also is there anyone who will spend time for translating and commit for the very end?

If there is a person knows japanese at least barely JPLT N2 or N3 I'll will guide to you to Anon1 he will be willing to teach you ^^.

Yep, mocking it wouldn't really accomplish anything. We should all strive to do our best. And indeed, there are some lines that is "made up" by the translator, and this is fine in my opinion as this is done even by official translations.

For me personally, I love writing, and translating has been a very interesting topic to me. That is why I want to take those extra steps to deliver a good translation if I ever translate a VN.

[dfallengod]

Ixrec is completely part of the old order. What he cares for more than anything else, is the Amaterasu brand. I was speaking to Ixrec about Fuwanovel in November last year (actually him and Sheeta were the first 2 people I spoke to about this project), and it quickly dawned on me that Ixrec has nothing to do with us. He's not interested in sharing VNs, that's not his primary focus. Even Clannad_Man said the same thing.

Because they put there RL in prior not VNs, They only translate a VN if its worth it...If they think "hmm this VN is worth to translate might as well translate it".

Translating takes time they only decide to do it quick or not.

Another thing fans cannot be certain whether if the translation is bad or not....

Because they have "No Idea" if this bad or not(the majority)...

Like anime itself can they distinguish if the translation is bad or not?

No,they simply dont care.

I found several anime subs has mistakes often..

but still they dont know.

only ones who have learn japanese knows where their mistakes is..

but not only animes but also mangas...

but whats the reaction? "Meh, I dont care.".

I can say majority of those who knows Japanese dont care and minority cares..

because they simply wont bother wasting their time translating and thats a fact!

but still there are other reasons like they can't put it too well in english but in their native language probably they can do it.

Translators are base on their level of knowledge and experience.

serveral thing is possible for person to be good in japanese.

1.) A foreign anime otaku can master japanese if they put their heart to it.

because they expose themselves on to much on anime....

but the problem lies when they are dedicated to this kind of thing...

2.)Asians like Korean,Chinese,Taiwanese or Chinese related countries has the higher chances on mastering Japanese due to the fact

they dont always put the subject if the conversation is quite obvious whom they are talking to. Unlike English the subject must be mention.

[Guest]

Yeah.

actually D_Fallen_god is right here, the normal VN reader doesn't care.

This discussion is not even a topic for normal people. Even normal translators.

It is only a couple of the high end translators who think like this. They actually despise people who are not up to standard. So this talk is usually reserved for the Gemot forums (a disgusting place) or on IRC channels or the bowels of /jp/. Not usually here.

But as we know with super fans (fan translators are just super fans), they actually cry if someone translates a game they like in a way they do not approve.

So in many ways, I am an enemy by default. because I apparently dont respect the authors as much as they do since I am encouraging crap translations (no i didnt. I only discourage elitism). So please. Please hate me. I am your enemy.

And also, apparently I don't respect author's rights as much as they do so I am a leper. A Blasphemer. Only because I have shown historically that they do not exist. http://wiki.fuwanovel.net/index.php/Copyright_is_a_Privilege

There's a dark side to the previous community that we had to put up with on the way to making these forums. The people at TLWiki are not good people. Try not to have anything to do with them.

[Joachim]

Yeah.

actually D_Fallen_god is right here, the normal VN reader doesn't care.

This discussion is not even a topic for normal people. Even normal translators.

It is only a couple of the high end translators who think like this. They actually despise people who are not up to standard. So this talk is usually reserved for the Gemot forums (a disgusting place) or on IRC channels or the bowels of /jp/. Not usually here.

But as we know with super fans (fan translators are just super fans), they actually cry if someone translates a game they like in a way they do not approve.

So in many ways, I am an enemy by default. because I apparently dont respect the authors as much as they do since I am encouraging crap translations (no i didnt. I only discourage elitism). So please. Please hate me. I am your enemy.

And also, apparently I don't respect author's rights as much as they do so I am a leper. A Blasphemer. Only because I have shown historically that they do not exist. http://wiki.fuwanovel.net/index.php/Copyright_is_a_Privilege

There's a dark side to the previous community that we had to put up with on the way to making these forums. The people at TLWiki are not good people. Try not to have anything to do with them.

This looks like a fight to get your pride back. Isn't there much more to focus about than a bunch of scholars debating about details ? This community is still in its infancy. You shouldn't build it around misfortunes of the past.

[dfallengod]

So please. Please hate me. I am your enemy.

EH!? Since when I hate you aaeru? I LOVE YOU!

I dont hate you by your own personal beliefs because your statements are correct.

but the fact is that Im neutral person. I'm only state the facts..

I just dont like to shut up and not tell out the reason of it..

Thats why I like to support but the problem is that I have my own problems to concern but I care a bit thou I didn't prioritized it.

but Meh.. I prefer enjoy life and being in vn community is one of it.

This looks like a fight to get your pride back. Isn't there much more to focus about than a bunch of scholars debating about details ? This community is still in its infancy. You shouldn't build it around misfortunes of the past.

Probably so but I dont think its not only pride aaeru is concern, Its about the Visual Novel Communty which lack of enthusiasm.

that why aaeru pursues to liven up the community, for short the old translators are the dark ages and aaeru wants to create a new age.

basically thats what I see(imagine her in a silver armor put up her sword and shouts LOL)....

anyway it concerns about what will be the quality of the translation. I prefer a high standard quality TL.

thats why I can suggest we need TLcheckers who is willing to check translations if its okay ^^

Also another thing: the wikipage where she put some statements about copyright with vn cgs I have dilemmas whether to laugh and say "LOL she make it more fancier while stating it" or to sigh and say "As expected of aaeru"

[Joachim]

Probably so but I dont think its not only pride aaeru is concern, Its about the Visual Novel Communty which lack of enthusiasm.

that why aaeru pursues to liven up the community, for short the old translators are the dark ages and aaeru wants to create a new age.

basically thats what I see(imagine her in a silver armor put up her sword and shouts LOL)....

anyway it concerns about what will be the quality of the translation. I prefer a high standard quality TL.

thats why I can suggest we need TLcheckers who is willing to check translations if its okay ^^

I don't see any lack of enthusiasm with fans. Translators are trying to raise awareness of their situation though. Oblivious to the fact that most people need proper knowledge to express their opinions in a thoughtful manner. The whole energy of getting the point through is wasted.

There isn't much efforts done on living up the place. Why is there no organised debates or events ? People can't get involved all by themselves, they need context.

[REtransInternational]

My believe is that to improve the quality of translation, the only way is to increase the fan base. Because fan translators are just fans. They read some visual novel some years ago, proceeded to learn Japanese (you dont have to know JP to watch anime. it's only visual novels), and then they became fan translators. That's how it is for many many people. When you increase the fan base, you increase the number of translators.

When you have many translators in the frontline, competition causes quality to go up. Increased demand causes quality to go up. Increased demand causes translator population to increase. This is how translation quality goes up. This is how you get more games into English.

There is no other way.

....(unless someone has a million dollars)

Precisely. The community needs a lot more translators to get some good competition going. Fuwanovel can help on the language end of that, by collecting resources on learning Japanese quickly and easily. Fast-track guides like this and this are great for pushing those who are uncertain over the edge. The internet and other technologies available now can help boost that, as much as it is discouraged by the elitists of the "old order". If they start translating early and receive (constructive) feedback, they can improve even more. If the "regime" sets quality standards high initially, very few will jump over the bar. But push quantity-first, and quality will improve with competition (look at how China took over the electronics industry.)

And our services provide support on the technical aspects, making it easy to start a translation project and begin entering lines --- all from your web browser. No need to figure out text extraction and insertion, contend with ad-hoc badly written undocumented tools, or manage patch creation and distribution.

The way we see it, Fuwanovel's strategic plan is to encourage Japanese learning and more translators. Our strategic plan is to encourage more translation projects.

[Guest]

I think Joachim is right though, I was actually just trying to get some off my chest and not really thinking about what's best for the discussion (hey I can't be superhuman All the time!).

But the idea is you need a good community (hongfire & nihonomaru is not bad), you need fans, lots of fans, and once you have the numbers, the viral nature of word-of-mouth will reach many more ears than before and that's how you get translators. this is the only way, because 'make visual novels popular in the west' is actually 'make visual novels popular in the west on a budget of $0', which sounds impossible. But that's what we're doing.

And one of the major issues is culture, so it is not completely irrelevant imo.

because there are older VN fans (including translators) who read these boards that aren't aware of these ideas, so it is always good to reiterate them because you never know who is listening.

so just as you can get new fans, you can also get old fans. we dont function in a void. and this place exists, precisely because there were previous places. Even if i claim to want to have nothing to do with the previous community, that itself, is a response to a previous community.

[Joachim]

I think Joachim is right though, I was actually just trying to get some off my chest and not really thinking about what's best for the discussion (hey I can't be superhuman All the time!).

That is part of the problem, you shouldn't take everything on your shoulders, and rely more on people. This is becoming too personnal for you to take decisions with an open mind.

But the idea is you need a good community (hongfire & nihonomaru is not bad), you need fans, lots of fans, and once you have the numbers, the viral nature of word-of-mouth will reach many more ears than before and that's how you get translators. this is the only way, because 'make visual novels popular in the west' is actually 'make visual novels popular in the west on a budget of $0', which sounds impossible. But that's what we're doing.

That's why you should take more care about the fans, and not the translators or people related to them. People need to rationnalise their experience with vns. To read what other fans got from it. Fans need to be pushed a little on thoughful discussions, because now they are roaming by themselves, without clear direction. It would be interesting to know what vns brought you to invest so much energy and time into their translation and it's spreading. Being able to relate with others experiences is one of the best ways to become invested in the community.

And one of the major issues is culture, so it is not completely irrelevant imo.

because there are older VN fans (including translators) who read these boards that aren't aware of these ideas, so it is always good to reiterate them because you never know who is listening.

so just as you can get new fans, you can also get old fans. we dont function in a void. and this place exists, precisely because there were previous places. Even if i claim to want to have nothing to do with the previous community, that itself, is a response to a previous community.

But the previous community clearly didn't gone well. You should build it from scratch in my opinion.

[dfallengod]

That's why you should take more care about the fans, and not the translators or people related to them. People need to rationnalise their experience with vns. To read what other fans got from it. Fans need to be pushed a little on thoughful discussions, because now they are roaming by themselves, without clear direction. It would be interesting to know what vns brought you to invest so much energy and time into their translation and it's spreading. Being able to relate with others experiences is one of the best ways to become invested in the community.

true to that I would prefer aaeru to focus more on managing and gathering the fans.

But the previous community clearly didn't gone well. You should build it from scratch in my opinion.

Reasons why:

1. By the time they get a C&D notice from the company 90% they will drop the project 10% go with via underground

2. Enthusiasm of the translator doing the translation.

If you count the number of english patches provided it doesnt goes half a number of chinese patches provided.

Fact that their community is highly more active than us(I swear even Gemot and Hongfire wouldnt match their pro-activeness)

Moogy now a days is clearly less active and he let new translators host their projects to tlwiki to put their hopes that their work might get licence since TLWIKI is affiliated with JAST.

Ixrec on the other hand probably working a bit but at his own pace...

but recently there are new groups established so its best aaeru try to ask their cooperation.

TLWIKI(Moogy) and Ammy(Ixrec) you dont put your hopes on them to cooperate with aaeru, For the fact that they disagree aaeru's idea.

Well Moogy is a 100% but Ixrec one time agreed on aaerus idea but there was a slight disagreement(I think) due to aaerus anit-copyright movements

and giving away games by downloading it with the patches.

Yandere(Taka-jun) I think he wouldn't care I guess he only wants to do what he wants.

VNS(Me) on the other hand wouldn't mind cooperating because we do what we want XD but dont enlist us with the anti-copyright movements because we are "NEUTRAL".

TenguTrans(Aeka) probably do the same and also AmagamiTrans(CirqueForge) wouldn't mind either but dunno about the anti-cp if they agree about it

[Guest]

@D_fallen_god: I dont know why they need to be 'enlisted'.

That's like saying, Erogegames.com should 'Enlist' Taka-jun or Amaterasu.

Why does a distribution site need to enlist anyone.

Also, i dont even know why you associate this site with an 'anti-copyright movement'. If you look at the 1st page of the FAQ, it says 3) Create a community that celebrates fan translation and fan sharing.

you dont really have to be guns-blazing anti-copyright in order to be a piracy site with a forums attached to it. In fact. I took my time to remove the john perry barlow videos and the pdf from almost all of the torrents.

The FAQ page 2 and page 3 are justifications for the possibility of celebrating fan sharing. It is the only way to accomplish point number 3 without looking like hypocrites.

I'm telling fan translators that the only intellectually honest way of publishing their work, is through a creative common 3.0 attribution license (and others). You can't claim you respect intellectual property if the only piece of intellectual property you respect, is your own.

[dfallengod]

@D_fallen_god: I dont know why they need to be 'enlisted'.

That's like saying, Erogegames.com should 'Enlist' Taka-jun or Amaterasu.

Why does a distribution site need to enlist anyone.

Also, i dont even know why you associate this site with an 'anti-copyright movement'. If you look at the 1st page of the FAQ, it says 3) Create a community that celebrates fan translation and fan sharing.

you dont really have to be guns-blazing anti-copyright in order to be a piracy site with a forums attached to it. In fact. I took my time to remove the john perry barlow videos and the pdf from almost all of the torrents.

The FAQ page 2 and page 3 are justifications for the possibility of celebrating fan sharing. It is the only way to accomplish point number 3 without looking like hypocrites.

I'm telling fan translators that the only intellectually honest way of publishing their work, is through a creative common 3.0 attribution license (and others). You can't claim you respect intellectual property if the only piece of intellectual property you respect, is your own.

It may look that way but we prefer involve in working with visual novels, nothing else.. ^^

anyway we enjoy what we do

[Joachim]

true to that I would prefer aaeru to focus more on managing and gathering the fans.

There was a peak of 104 people on sunday. One fourth of the total of members ! The fans want to get involved, but with the current structure they can't do it properly. It is a waste, but it is understandable as fan translation seem to be the main focus for Aaeru. With a proper organisation, and some motivated people to manage the community she could focus on what she is the best at. Nevertheless she needs to be clear about her goals. For a motivated team there needs to be something concrete to aim for. There are different steps to make visual novels popular and these needs to be well thought out.

I am getting carried away on this thoughts because visual novels are deep experiences that need to be spread, but not only. I feel that if people can set proper words on their experience it can truly improve their lives. Discussions need rules and knowledge to be rewarding for the reader. Because of this lack, the whole community seem carried only by it's most vocal fans, and it becomes an individual centered community.

[Guest]

Yeah I wouldn't mind if I can get some more people to write on my blog.

Also these forums are still pretty small. the erogegames forums and hongfire forums are much healthier.

If there is people, they will talk. We just plain don't have that much people >.<

Edit: I think good topics also draw people in. maybe you can think of a few topics? I am just reaching 5000 lines translated now on D.C.III

[Saber]

wow, never thought the topic could get so deep. But this is what fascinate me about this community as a whole. There is a surprisingly large base of fans in the west and of course there will be differing opinion just like in any community.

[Joachim]

Yeah I wouldn't mind if I can get some more people to write on my blog.

Also these forums are still pretty small. the erogegames forums and hongfire forums are much healthier.

If there is people, they will talk. We just plain don't have that much people >.<

Edit: I think good topics also draw people in. maybe you can think of a few topics? I am just reaching 5000 lines translated now on D.C.III

This response seems clear enough to me. I don't share your point of view, but at least I'm glad I could give my opinion and have a reply.

I have some ideas about topics, but I will need some time to prepare it properly. I need to ponder the worth of these efforts though.

[harry_kinomoto]

@Joachim/Aaeru:

~Reasons Why People Lurk and Don't Post~

• -Naturally shy personalities
  
• -Intimidating/bully-prone forum atmosphere
  
• -Feelings of being excluded (possibly related to above, but see also Joachim's point about "individual-centered" forums getting dominated by very few people posting)
  
• -Don't know enough about the subject
  
• -Don't care enough about the subject (and therefore won't put effort in to posting)
  
• -Simply don't feel they have anything to say (can be related to not knowing, but can also be combated by making appropriately controversial topics that everyone will have opinions about. Eg: H-Scenes in VNs)
  

~My Prevailing Conclusions Regarding the Low Levels of Fan Engagement Forum Activity~

Of the members we have, either we don't have enough die-hard "super" fans, or, more accurately, we've not stirred up enough hype around VNs to draw people in. The way I see it though, these forums were created with the sole purpose of making VNs popular. Thus even if the lurkers remain lurkers, the fact that they see this forum as an interesting-enough place to deserve their lurking, can only be a good thing in the long run.

*****

Addendum

Fan engagement should be considered beyond the context of forum posts alone. Aaeru-wise, I think she's being pretty vocal about trying to recruit helpers - her efforts imo being met with decent success. I was pleasantly surprised to come back after my 2-week hiatus to find so many new mods around!

That being said I know there have been some very good initiatives (click!) started out by members on this forum that, imo, could really benefit the whole VN scene if completed, but unfortunately seem to have garnered very lacklustre interest thus far. Am quite tempted to pin them, personally, so as to give them maximum visibility...