Character archetypes - VNs and Western media

[born to lose]

Hey, long time lurker, first time poster. Anyway, during my time in VN (and other otaku media) communities, I've noticed lots of complaints with character archetypes present in the medium, usually comparing it to Western media which supposedly has more vivid characters. But I really don't feel like this is the case at all, Western literature and pop culture is filled with acrchetypical characters just as visual novels are. You have the the generic nerdy guy, the misfit seeking acceptance, the jock, the bitchy teenage girl, the orphaned royalty, the comic relief sidekick... Ever since Greek theatre, character archetypes have been a central part of any form of entertainment. So why do you think VNs or anime/manga get criticized so much for using stock characters? Or is this criticism justified, perhaps the archetypes are used differently in VNs? Would love to hear your take on this and whether you agree with me.

[atorq]

It's not that archetypes don't exist in western media, it's just that they tend to be done better. Repetition, archetypes, clichés, tropes and so forth are all fine as long as they are handled well.

[Okarin]

There exist very few really innovative works in anime and manga (it's hard for me to talk of VNs, since it's a world as big as those ones, but less known; most of them are untranslated. But I'd say the same). When one appears, then suddenly all authors around the place copy them to death.

Take harem. Some forms of harem existed back in the 90s, such as Tenchi Muyo or even Nadesico (the unknown precursor to harems), but it really took off with Love Hina in the early 2000s. Japanese have always loved the high school setting, and Love Hina just introduced the dorm full of girls and just one boy thingy (that we also see in If my heart had wings, for example). It also reinforced existing tropes and created some, and since it was wildly popular, it established a genre. Thereafter, if you wanted to produce a harem anime, you looked up to Love Hina. And the stream of harem anime has been endless.

Of course, Western works aren't exactly better. How many doctor shows are there? How many about policemen or crime investigation? Once you establish a genre, you create a market to be exploited. And if you deviate considerably from the established tropes, and from the public's expectations, you get outside your genre. But, it can still be good, or just not, it depends.

[solidbatman]

54 minutes ago, Okarin said:

There exist very few really innovative works in anime and manga (it's hard for me to talk of VNs, since it's a world as big as those ones, but less known; most of them are untranslated. But I'd say the same). When one appears, then suddenly all authors around the place copy them to death.

Take harem. Some forms of harem existed back in the 90s, such as Tenchi Muyo or even Nadesico (the unknown precursor to harems), but it really took off with Love Hina in the early 2000s. Japanese have always loved the high school setting, and Love Hina just introduced the dorm full of girls and just one boy thingy (that we also see in If my heart had wings, for example). It also reinforced existing tropes and created some, and since it was wildly popular, it established a genre. Thereafter, if you wanted to produce a harem anime, you looked up to Love Hina. And the stream of harem anime has been endless.

Of course, Western works aren't exactly better. How many doctor shows are there? How many about policemen or crime investigation? Once you establish a genre, you create a market to be exploited. And if you deviate considerably from the established tropes, and from the public's expectations, you get outside your genre. But, it can still be good, or just not, it depends.

A major difference though, is that I rarely, if ever, see people claiming that western sitcoms, or dramas are art. 

[Clephas]

7 hours ago, born to lose said:

Hey, long time lurker, first time poster. Anyway, during my time in VN (and other otaku media) communities, I've noticed lots of complaints with character archetypes present in the medium, usually comparing it to Western media which supposedly has more vivid characters. But I really don't feel like this is the case at all, Western literature and pop culture is filled with acrchetypical characters just as visual novels are. You have the the generic nerdy guy, the misfit seeking acceptance, the jock, the bitchy teenage girl, the orphaned royalty, the comic relief sidekick... Ever since Greek theatre, character archetypes have been a central part of any form of entertainment. So why do you think VNs or anime/manga get criticized so much for using stock characters? Or is this criticism justified, perhaps the archetypes are used differently in VNs? Would love to hear your take on this and whether you agree with me.

I agree that Western media is as if not more archetyped compared to otaku media.  The difference is that there is that Western media has a tendency to allow more freedom to 'fill in the blanks' than Japanese media does, due to the business culture over there.  For better or worse, Japanese business culture is mostly counter-innovation outside of the tech field... and even there, there is a sense of 'perfecting what already exists' rather than expanding the field as a whole these days.  That's why smart phones took so long to catch on there, and why the Japanese phone-makers pretty much got left behind by the wave of the smart phone. 

Something to keep in mind is that the 'moe/slice-of-life' genre is the epitome of Japanese conservative culture in the VN industry.  Considering that these are mostly eroge, that might seem a weird way to be conservative to us, but that's how it is, unfortunately.  Innovation in storytelling is mostly seen in chuunige, the nakige and utsuge sub-genres, and sci-fi or fantasy.  You'll almost never see any significant variation from the 'golden road' that most VN companies rely on outside of these genres.  You might see a first-class VN of the type that transcends its tropes... but you won't escape the use of the tropes.