AdventSign
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Posts posted by AdventSign
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I don't really think it's fair to be judging people based on what they like and enjoy. Yeah, you're hurt and/or offended. When that happens with me, you know what I do? Get off of the forums and Discord and go outside. There are certain factors in life we can control when it comes to our emotions. Removing ourselves from potentially harmful situations is one of them. Everyone is different and handles things differently, and having too much of something is never a good thing. I don't think there's a need to cut Fuwanovel out completely, but it might help to get out. You're becoming desensitized for a reason, and placing blame on your surroundings will only get you so far when you can control those surroundings.
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Gonna start Yosuga no Sora. Seems romantic.
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2 hours ago, Fred the Barber said:
Just to chip in my thoughts on a couple of those points, since some I strongly agree with, and some I disagree with, and I think I have a somewhat balanced view having been on both the fan and pro side of VN loc...
You will see companies pick up things simply because of staff enthusiasm at times, but it's the exception that proves the rule. Generally speaking, fan translation is probably the best shot for localizations for much older, "classic" titles.
Official TLs are actually in worse shape here than fan TLs. It's far more common for fan TLs to have someone in a "translation checker"-type capacity than it is for official TLs, since fan TLs have the luxury of time and (oddly enough) resources. There's barely enough money in professional VN loc to pay a (not very good) rate for TL, edit, and QC; unless you're looking at a truly exceptional scenario (Muv Luv and Clannad come to mind as probably having had more resources available than most official loc projects), there's no money at all to pay for extra hands beyond that.
These are generally very light-handed, and ultimately more like guidelines than rules. Except in really superficial, stylistic ways, all the releases even from a single given company will vary wildly in their approach to various localization decisions, due to the influence of the many freelance translators and editors employed by each company.
Same. Though I'll caution by adding that, at least in my case, I only feel that way as long as the TL in question is delivered with care and quality, just like I'd want from an official TL. If it's a poorly edited google translate job, then it's worse than nothing, since it puts the nail in the coffin for any chance of a quality translation, and I wouldn't want that for any game I cared about. But that can obviously happen with either a fan TL or an official TL, as the recent Tenkiame release for example shows... Neither fan nor official TL has either a monopoly on or a guarantee of quality.
Hmmmm. I knew there were only a select few that have jobs in the VN industry, though I didn't know you felt short staffed compared to fan translation projects. Guess it reflects the reality that many jobs both online and offline have today.
Never heard of Tenkiame until now. I see your point. There's still this sense of how official work is of higher quality than fan translated work, though I can understand why people feel that way after reading translated VNs like Flyable Heart.
As far as monopolies go, you can't stop people from getting jobs in a company and abandoning fan translating altogether. That is ultimately up for those individuals to decide.
Well said, Fred.
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Was debating on bumping this again. Tbh, companies can only do so much. They generally go with what's popular at the time so have a chance at making a profit. Fan translations don't have that restriction, so they can work on whatever they want. Obscure VNs and VNs that's been C&D with no sign of a translation from the company who sent it, such as Chaos Head which is sitting in limbo, and the C&D of Air many years ago.
They're generally looked down on as far as quality goes since people learn from each other. Can't really do much when you got 2-3 people in a group. Ya just gotta rely on yourself to catch your own mistakes I suppose. Easier said than done. After all, books and written resources only go so far. The amount of dropped projects from them don't exactly paint them in a good light either, nor do the "rules" for translating and editing that varies from group to group instead of having unified rules like companies do. Sometimes that's a good thing, though it can be bad depending on how justifiable those rules are.
I genuinely hope that fan translations stick around because they can do things companies can't, regardless on whether or not they want to admit it. I also don't want all the companies disappearing, since they can do things fan translators can't. As long as the fan translators don't TL stuff that the companies are planning to TL in the future, I don't see why there can't be both. Losing either one is a loss for consumers and those who want to read a good (or bad) story.
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Personal translator choice always causes some sort of commotion here because of the non-toxic and non-judgemental community we have here who understand and respect that people aren't perfect and have their own way of doing things, regardless of how odd it may seem/sound.
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something tells me Kiririri is trolling.
At any rate, I found some tools. I'll see if I can do it myself. I hate relying on other people. Thanks anyways
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Position closed. Wish us luck.
Special thanks to Frc_ for providing a scripts, as well as a starting point for translation.
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Giving up on something in life because its hard is a luxury I lost a long time ago. If I've become jaded and opinionated seeing people and groups constantly collapse both in the VN community and out, so be it.
I can afford 2 mins to respond. Affording a year to learn something on top of what I have to do? I don't see the correlation.
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4 hours ago, Zakamutt said:
Thanks now learn Japanese to demonstate your superior commitment
I'd love to if you pay me for it or for my rent or schooling or food for who I have to currently support alone, etc.
Otherwise, I have other thing I *have to* learn and juggle in life with, oddly enough, don't make anything in life either.
I wouldn't have anything if I didn't pursue attempting to get better at English "rules" either. You can be a jack of all trades and a master of none, or you can specialize elsewhere in life. I've decided to in the medical field and humanistic field (which I does take a toll mentally being around death constantly). Ironically, I probably would have been better focusing on English and then moving on to Japanese instead of humanities/medicine. Wouldn't be as fucked up as I am now and the most I'd have to worry about is constant subjection to criticism and personal credibility.
Also, I'm *attempting* to improve in English writing as my TL is improving in Japanese. We wouldn't have a shot at what we're doing otherwise. Though at the rate he's going, he won't need me for too much longer. Once that happens, then I'd say that your comment holds more water than it currently does.
Now, please do on about my superiority to learning Japanese. Seems like comments like these always pop up when somebody has a stick up their butts. Kinda surprised it wasn't said sooner.
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It's k. Live life, then come back and enjoy the fun all over again. We will be waiting for you good sir.
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Suppose I owe an apology to FRC. I do get why you dropped it. Guess I shouldn't be putting everyone into a single box and generalize things.
Still, my point stands regarding the commitment sorely lacking in TL groups nowadays, especially when you looked at the dropped and stalled projects as of late.
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Glad things are still ok. I've felt empty without knowing the progress and reviews of some VNs from my #1 favourite website in the world.
Hopefully things start looking up. I miss the old days where every week I'd have meaning in my life and would race to come on here. Please... Give me the strength to go on.
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What's going on with the lack of updates outside of the forums? Did whoever was making the posts disappear or something?
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10 minutes ago, ittaku said:
Nah I think it's related as we have to understand the reasons someone might go on the attack with poor translations and this is one potential reason...
To be honest, it feels that a lot of "poor translations" could have been avoided if the team (or individual) were more open to constructive feedback and were willing to redo some of their work.
It's definitely time consuming, but isn't it worth it knowing you did your best and learned a thing or two from it? -
43 minutes ago, Stormwolf said:
If people didnt crave attention and a following then we wouldnt have public web sites for the group with progress trackers and comment fields. Its human nature to want praise for their work, just a shame it sometimes backfires with a c&d demand as you say.
I suppose so. Never thought about comments and trackers that way. I just enjoy having work done and having it done well.
I just write stuff that I feel fits or is right, both in the TL project and on Fuwanovel. I don't expect people to respond.
Guess it's for personal satisfaction, if anything. Nothing feels as good as completing something to the best of your ability, and is hopefully something you can be proud of.
Just want to voice my opinion and reasoning behind it and perhaps gain a different perspective from those who are willing to contest those opinions.
A quote from Bakemonogatari: "I don't know everything. I only know what I know."
It's the main reason why I still communicate on here. Not because of attention or wanting to stir shit up.
I personally have no need for fame or popularity. I'm going to fade away anyway, so I'd rather do what I love because I love it.
I suppose everybody on here is different though. We all have different motivations and goals. This is simply one of the few things I enjoy doing. -
40 minutes ago, Stormwolf said:
The day a fan tl group selects something other than a regular moege and chooses something people have hyped up and have waited for for a long time to play, then i suspect you'll get quite the following.
You can have a masters degree in both japanese and english and people will still complain. But this is how the world is. Cant do anything about that.
Too bad about the translator though. I'm sure ambitions have been the death of many groups and translations. Both finished and unfinished. Important that everyone is on the same wavelength or drama and disolvement will likely happen.
Eh. I have little need or desire for a following. We just work on whatever we feel like. Plus, you run the risk of getting a C&D which, although I wouldn't care too much about, the other team members would.
I really hope that more translators come up and try some translations like how people used to years ago. Not many groups left.
Regardless, it seems people don't have much more to add or say, so I guess we're all in agreement with each other. My mission has been achieved.
Hopefully things will get better for fan tls with these perspectives that people have spoken about.
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I'm not trolling. I'm genuinely concerned for the VN scene. I want both the industry and fan TLS to flourish together rather than feeling like fan TLS are a stepping stone to get a job. Just like volunteering, it's critical that fan TLS exist and aren't looked down on like they currently are. As a fan TL group, we want to be taken seriously and respected for what we do. We are going to make mistakes, but we will learn from them.
I'm hoping the TL in our group will keep translating niche VNs that won't see much of a profit over here, bit still have a cult following. The way fan TLS are viewed and talked about though... My translator wants to be taken seriously and it's pushing him more toward wanting a job in the industry. Its a shame that it has to come to that to gain the respect of his peers. I don't really give a shit about how people view me tbh, but I understand why he cares so much. I'm sure many other fan TL groups feel the same. Putting in months (or years) of learning Japanese and English only to be constantly criticised (regardless on whether it's deserved or not) makes them feel worthless. Learning for years how to translate and then be told it's still not good enough... What message does that send to them?
Someday, I hope fan TLS won't be treated as a joke. The only way they aren't is when they have a "well-known" translator or editor on their team, and it shouldn't take that to gain the respect of their peers.
I'm glad that this conversation hasn't taken a turn for the worst. I assume most people agree with us few who are talking partially at the very least. I think we've all been looked down on at some point in our lives, so it's relatable. Its something that we shouldn't do as a community. Id rather not associate with people or a community like that.
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3 hours ago, Stormwolf said:
it doesn't need to be perfect. It just needs to not be terrible if anything. People here needs a serious reality check with this literature phd requirement to translate a vn. Especially if it's a fan tl group who spends their free time translating because they enjoy it and doing you a serious favour in the process. You will get a handful of people whining about a sentence being written a bit differently than how it actually is in Japanese or complain about some typos here and there, but then you have the silent masses who enjoy the translation and is overjoyed that they can finally read a vn that will 99% sure never see an official translation. And who's to say an official translation would be any better? I see plenty wrong with super delayed official releases. Mistakes so obvious that it makes me not believe all those checks and rechecks actually took place. But for a fan tl it doesn't bother me one bit as i appreciate the time and work being done.
Unfortunately, a lot of people in the industry don't feel that way. Here's the thing: when people learn what's right and what's wrong, they start seeing errors which distract themselves from the VN. To be honest, it's the same with most things. Its up to the person how to deal with it and the easiest is to criticise it and tell them to learn more before continuing. The more time consuming option is working with them rather than demoralizing them (some people sincerely don't have time to help, others don't want to because of no patience). Another reason why I was against the standardized rules that are in place for the industry on what's right and wrong, though my TL is pretty uptight about it. We make a good pair now that I think about it.
Its important to have standardized rules for *yourself* that's *acceptable* to the majority (basically, the people NOT in companies and are VN fanatics like us). Believe it or not, the more critical people are a minority, and only if it's *truly* bad do you get flame wars by multiple people, which you're probably better off going back and either fixing errors or find those that can teach you them ASAP. Its not good to have a bad patch out for years without fixing it. The damage might be done, but it should be fixed out of respect for the VN and those that haven't read it yet.
Anyway, I'm rambling. People like Kiririri or whatever the hell is name is... He's one person. Ultimately, you'll piss off somebody for some reason, so as long as most people enjoy it, it's accurate, and flows well, then you've accomplished what a fan TL is supposed to be. Though if one wants to improve their skills, they should listen to those that try to legitimately help.
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5 hours ago, adamstan said:
Maybe we should produce different variants, like in that meme linked before?
That's a good idea, though you have to be careful. Dem localization companies might hit you with a Cease & Desist if they find out you're doing another variant of what Kiririri is doing. He is a well-renown translator in multiple companies. One of the biggest guys around. Even bigger than Moogy. If we are going to make a different varient, we should release it anonymously to avoid a C&D using a VPN.
We got dis boys. Sharing is caring, after all. People have forgotten how to share, so it's important to remind them.
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1 hour ago, EntireInternet said:
"Roses are blue,
violets are red,
I have to go to the bathroom."
- Rough translationWow. Your translation skills are off the charts. The meaning and remaining faithful to its origins certainly shined through. All we need is a good editor and we will have a short VN! In order to do it justice, there's only one man who we can entrust with this special task: we need Freddy, master editor and translator extraordinaire. Plz, if you can read this, help edit this work of art. Maybe we can sell this work of art to JAST or MangaGamer if it's good enough.
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On 10/7/2018 at 5:20 AM, Kiriririri said:
Damn. You got me dude. I should have read your comment before I posted. It's unfortunate half the people here won't be able to read your ballad. I'm sure it must be a masterpiece that only a true maestro like yourself could come up with. Please enlighten us unworthy, filthy, English only peasants to your wonderful creation.
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Now, it isn't entirely the companies and community's fault either. There's also those people with low self esteem who take constructive criticism as shit talking. NOBODY would spend an hour on a post unless they either hated somebody or genuinely want to help, regardless of why they would. Those that can't take constructive criticism have to accept that it's part of learning and if there's any help and knowledge to be gained. If anything will speed up learning more than looking at books, it's constructive criticism on your own work. Doesn't mean you have to go re-writing and re-translating the entire script or that it has to be perfect. That takes months and months and can kill projects. Yes, this makes it imperfect and puts the quality lower than an official TL. Here's the thing: does it still read well and get the meaning and characterization across? If so, you've done your job. People who know Japanese and English are the toughest critics, and it's understandable. But there's a fine line being being helpful and demoralizing the team.
I've seen so much destructive criticism from outside our project not for translation errors, but because they prefer literal over liberal, or something that's related more to preference. I trust my TL to do what he needs to do, and that could be why our project is still alive. He's come back after 2 years and is re-TLing it and he's actually pretty good with idioms and English. I encourage him to write liberally as I correct him or use more appropriate words. It's pretty interesting tbh how far we've come since our starting point two years ago. Some people like it more, some people like it less. But there's no doubt in my mind he's gotten better, and I also feel that I can match his expectations as the editor. If other people feel differently, then that's understandable. But that's life, and if people want to help, I'll listen. If people don't, then there's no point in listening. It's why I'm usually not demoralized, yet continue to learn what I need to for the team.
Also, it's a bit idiotic to use destructive criticism on a TL. Giving resources to help get better doesn't count as constructive either because of how overwhelming it can be learning English from textbooks, as well as some people learn more by doing rather than researching and studying. You lose TLs that way, and that's one of the ways projects can die.Take some time away from what you're doing and help out. They'll probably make the same mistakes over and over again, but that's learning and expecting people to pick up what others are saying right off the bat is ridiculous and unfair.
Therefore, it's everyone's fault. Sure, there's some blame that should be placed more on others, but people also have to be able to take criticism, since there's people out there with patience who *are* actively trying to help and are pushed aside due to fear of destructive criticism from them. Some people are also truly stubborn and just don't want help, which can't really be helped by anyone. You gotta accept help in order to be helped, after all. It's just a big mess in general and there's so many ways you can look at it. My opinion is very unpopular though among certain individuals, but I consider it the reality we live in. There's so many other things I can say about this topic, but I'll save it for another day
- Arcadeotic, Testarossa and SaintOfVoid
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Being a part of a fan-tl, I can tell you first hand what I have an issue with. I have no experience working in a VN company, so I cannot speak for them.
To be honest, I welcome any criticism to our project. The problem is when people shit on your work and then going and say "well it's your work" and then proceed to tell you to work on English/Japanese. That effectively stalls a project for months and months, which is why you're seeing a lot of fan-tls stall. Unlike when fan-tls first time into play, criticism is much more prevalent because of a "set" of rules and expectations set by the industry and the individuals that work within it. So now do you not only have less fan-tls because of them being merged into companies, you have people becoming demoralized and trying to learn a language, which that in itself isn't bad.
When you drill into somebody new that it needs to be "perfect", that's when problems come up. It can be very overwhelming to new people, causing them to write mistake after mistake or slow/stall their TLs/edits to a crawl in fear of looking bad. Logically, it's better to come back to it later when you know the language better to "save face", but people have lives and what might have been a completed TL with some mistakes is now an indefinitely stalled TL. I feel it would only be fair to have the same standards that were set in place when fan-TLs first started. Currently, the only people that are learning are those that have already learned from the mistakes years ago before people became more critical of people's work. New TLs/editors are actively being discouraged because of the hypocrisy that the community in general is showing. Expecting a good tl and then telling them to learn it themselves is a horrible message to give off, especially if most of the people in current projects learned by doing, rather than researching.
In all honesty, *WE* are the reason fan TLs are dying. There's a major experience gap between people who have done this for years and those that are just starting out and people aren't willing to personally mentor or become more active in current projects to share what they've learned from the mistakes they've made in the past and instead say they're shit, writing stuff in Japanese to make fun of them so people who are just starting out can't read it and only a joke that "experienced" people would get or just putting people down, saying that they'll help them if they "get better" (which makes no sense and goes back to the perfection piece I mentioned earlier).
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AIR with my significant other.
Kara no Shoujo with myself.
I'm leaving Fuwanovel, because I'm starting to realize that this community and the VN community at large has hurt me.
in Members' Lounge
Posted · Edited by AdventSign
Ok. So what's your solution to what your feeling? Like, you can try telling people what's right and wrong, but not everybody is going to agree. You are your own person, just like I am mine. Everybody has their own "triggers". Look, I do not wish to argue with you as I volunteer with survivors of abuse and nobody wins when it comes to arguing about your feelings and thoughts. Keep in mind that each person handles situations very differently and it's not cool to be generalizing and assuming things about people.
I hope you're able to get through the guilt and not be held a slave to it. It's a shitty feeling in general to have.