What kind of ending structure do you prefer?

[MaggieROBOT]

1 hour ago, Dreamysyu said:

Actually, we also have Saya no Uta as a good example of a story that's also idea-focused, but doesn't really have any enforced order at all. I would argue that it manages to get away with it since the endings are simply very short, and it still clearly has one concluding ending which, while may not be "true", still is highlighted by a different atmosphere and even a different ending song.

Tbh Saya no Uta is even more special than that. Iirc all the 3 endings are quite different in tone between themselves AND each have a different song  (although the first one that you reach midway through the novel is just a instrumental song, while the other two are sung). So in a way, I see all 3 of them as kind of "True".

[Rain Spectre]

Saya was short, though. It's only 6-7 hours long, and the two branches are respectively one that sees the story "end" about halfway through, and another which is largely in determining the result of the final fight, and both there have their own claims as being the "true" end. 

[Dreamysyu]

14 minutes ago, MaggieROBOT said:

although the first one that you reach midway through the novel is just a instrumental song, while the other two are sung).

Oh, really? I was under the impression that it had the same ending song as the ending where

Spoiler

both Saya and Fuminori die.

I guess, I'm remembering it wrong.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Dreamysyu

[LemiusK]

@Dreamysyu:

I still feel like idea-based stories can be worked without an enforced order, just that not many writers have figured out an effective way of doing so yet (myself included). This kinda goes back to your point #1: mysteries without a "true" conclusion to leave readers to figure out the real truth. I think the same could be pulled off for "ideas," because an idea can be multi-faceted and layered, depending on if your idea is a philosophy, science, religion, etc. Many arguments of a single idea can be formed in any order, and the reader can still put together these arguments by himself to form a coherent thought. So even if you compared it to an "essay," I still don't believe an enforced order is required.

In fact, since you brought up the analogy of an "essay," I'll offer a similar analogy. Let's say a teacher instructs an entire classroom to write essays on a single idea. For the sake of this discussion, let's treat these multiple essays as "routes." These essays are all about the same idea, but told through different perspectives. Do you need to read Student A's essay before Student B's? Nope. You could easily read Student C's thesis on this specific part of the idea first, then move on to see what Student A has to say about the same idea.

Let's break it down a little so I could explain this better.

Let's say VN-X is about an idea. The idea is "Crime in Japan". We have five routes, and each route is dedicated to exploring the different types of crime Japan faces. Do you need a proper order for that? I don't think so. I guess you can maybe consider this as a "world-building" story (although do you even need to build "Japan" for Japanese people in the first place?), but really, the story idea is more about the grim situation Japan might be facing with the high crime rates going on in the forms of various crimes. In other words, it's an episodic story that's also an idea-based story.

But let's say we have a more traditional story with a more fictional setting. Let's say we have a VN-Z. The story idea is simple: a boy defeats a dragon. How can you tell such a story through multiple endings of equal significance? The same way you tell the story in your classic "Choose Your Own Adventure" books; offer different ways to fight the dragon, and describe in detail these different methods the boy utilized to defeat the dragon.

I think when it comes down to it, reader satisfaction depends on ONE important factor: do you value the destination, or do you value the journey? Most people would choose the former, but for those who value the latter, "the journey" in question is basically the journey you take from one route to another, exploring the different sides of the story without a clear destination. You can basically just read about hundreds, if not thousands of heroic tales about a boy slaying a dragon without requiring some "One True End" if you're the latter type of reader.

This is all just theorycrafting on my part, of course. I haven't read nearly enough VNs to list many examples of novels that utilized the above theory into their writing, but I'm at least knowledgeable enough in how VN routes work to at least show how such a style of writing (with multiple significant endings) might work. In theory.

But if you want a more solid example, let's use an existing VN and theorycraft using its structure: School Days. Could you imagine if the writer used the massive branching design for a completely different type of story? Like say, helping a mental patient yandere recover from her murderous tendencies (which is as close as you can get to what School Days is about without adding romance or hentai)? Think about how School Days was written. Think about its endings, and how certain endings show what happens after the tragedy and can stand on their own as a proper ending, albeit a bittersweet ending. Think about how each character has more than one good ending (or to put it in another way, more than one "true end"), and how those good endings can also stand on their own as a satisfying ending.

Now, I would like to improve all of that by turning School Days from a moege to a plotge. The plot is what I've already mentioned (stopping the yandere). Just like School Days, there are multiple ways the plot can end in a satisfying manner. For the sake of this theorycraft, please think of the name, "Yandere" as one of the girls you know from School Days, while the protagonist is Makoto.

1) The yandere kills the protagonist, and his family mourns his demise. But, the family moves on and seeks justice against the yandere, and the story's main character is now one of the family members instead of the deceased protagonist. The story ends with them succeeding, ending in a more traditional "true end" way where the good guys win. But that doesn't make this a true end. It's just "one of the endings."

2) The yandere dies, but the yandere's relative seeks revenge against the protagonist. The story ends with the protagonist convincing the family member that it was in self-defense. They both mourn over the yandere's death together.

3) The yandere seeks help in a mental hospital. This is the most typical kind of ending where everything wraps up, and therefore, can qualify as a true end. And yet, it's just...? That's right. "One of the endings."

4) The yandere seeks help in a mental hospital, but goes on a killing spree again. The yandere's family ends up being the ones who stop her. They mourn over her death with the protagonist, but they think of the good things about her rather than the bad ones.

And so on and so forth. I could literally go on for quite a while how I can shape the story in such a way that all of the endings have equal significance, and all of the endings can have a satisfying conclusion. There is no romance, there is no dating; there's only plot. It's not a moege, it's a plotge.

Edited November 29, 2018 by LemiusK

[MaggieROBOT]

15 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

Oh, really? I was under the impression that it had the same ending song as the ending where

  Reveal hidden contents

both Saya and Fuminori die.

I guess, I'm remembering it wrong.

I can't really run the game right now, but YT comments (Not the most reliable but you work with what you have ) says you're the one that's actually right. My bad. Must have mixed it with some other game... not that my opinion on the tone and trueness really changes because of that.

[Dreamysyu]

1 hour ago, LemiusK said:

I still feel like idea-based stories can be worked without an enforced order, just that not many writers have figured out an effective way of doing so yet (myself included).

Yeah, nice point. I guess, maybe I should correct myself and say that all of my reasoning only applies to "idea focused" Vns that I personally played. They seemed to work a lot better when they actually applied some order to the ideas they were trying to convey. But I'm not trying to prove that's it's a universal law or anything.

1 hour ago, LemiusK said:

I think when it comes down to it, reader satisfaction depends on ONE important factor: do you value the destination, or do you value the journey?

I don't think that's what important. I definitely value the journey a lot more, but an awful ending still can spoil the experience.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Dreamysyu

[Dreamysyu]

Ah, sorry. I can't read, apparently.

[LemiusK]

21 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

I feel like this example fits that I personally qualify by "character development focused" story. At least, I don't see any actual "ideas" in this plot, so I don't feel like that contradicts what I say. Well, yeah, maybe I should add "purely plot focused" stories to the third point.

But there's no character development. There's only a story about good guys catching bad guys. Never did I mention in my statement that there's some kind of backstory about the yandere.

 

21 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

I don't think that's what important. I definitely value the journey a lot more, but an awful ending still can spoil the experience.

Then you valued the destination. You're contradicting yourself.

Edited November 29, 2018 by LemiusK

[Rain Spectre]

You seem to think that a true ending nullifies the effect of the prior routes, which is simply not true.

[LemiusK]

Just now, Rain Spectre said:

You seem to think that a true ending nullifies the effect of the prior routes,

Then you've completely misinterpreted my point.

Edited November 29, 2018 by LemiusK

[LemiusK]

@Dreamysyu Also, are you seriously going to ignore my "boy defeats dragon" story? Where's the character development in that? Is that a charage too, when the focus is only on the plot?

[Dreamysyu]

Just now, LemiusK said:

@Dreamysyu Also, are you seriously going to ignore my "boy defeats dragon" story? Where's the character development in that? Is that a charage too, when the focus is only on the plot?

Quote

Well, yeah, maybe I should add "purely plot focused" stories to the third point.

Also, I edited that post right after I posted it since I didn't really understand you point at first.

[LemiusK]

13 minutes ago, Rain Spectre said:

You seem to think that a true ending nullifies the effect of the prior routes, which is simply not true.

Honestly, I don't know where I've stated that the "True End" nullifies the effect of prior routes. Show me proof that I have said that. I've merely shown that stories without True Ends can be functional as VNs, not that VNs with True Ends are bad. I don't even know how you arrived at that conclusion, which is simply not true. Irony.

[Happiness+]

2 hours ago, Dreamysyu said:

Ahem, really? I mean, Ever17 is one VN that really doesn't make much sense at all if you take the true ending away from it. It's essentially a sci-fi mystery, and they almost always need to have some kind of reveal to work in order not to feel incomplete. I guess, it would be possible to make a VN where each route has answers to the questions raised in other routes, but it would be way to difficult to make overall, and in most cases it simply isn't worth the effort. I mean, yeah, the ending itself kind of sucks, but you can't have a true route without giving it some ending.
Though, considering what you say about HF, it feels like we look for very different things in VNs we read. Off-topic:

Yeah, I thought it was fine until I learned about the true ending. To me it seems kinda like an asspull to be honest. Maybe I should make a forum post about this in detail. I mean it’s a great VN, but that VN is proof as to why the “One True End” thing annoys me to all hell.  [Because, I just wanted to be with Tsugumi and the fact that her ending is basically a bad end: is kinda annoying. I mean come on, I spent all this time hanging out with her, getting to know her, just so we can be fated in a stupid bad end.... 14 year old me at the time was heartbroken.]

[Rain Spectre]

Just now, Happiness+ said:

Yeah, I thought it was fine until I learned about the true ending. To me it seems kinda like an asspull to be honest. Maybe I should make a forum post about this in detail. I mean it’s a great VN, but that VN is proof as to why the “One True End” thing annoys me to all hell.  [Because, I just wanted to be with Tsugumi and the fact that her ending is basically a bad end: is kinda annoying. I mean come on, I spent all this time hanging out with her, getting to know her, just so we can be fated in a stupid bad end.... 14 year old me at the time was heartbroken.]

Spoiler

What the hell are you talking about? Tsugumi's route is the canon route of Takeshi's side. The events of the True Ending literally hinge on it. 

 

[Dreamysyu]

1 minute ago, Happiness+ said:

Yeah, I thought it was fine until I learned about the true ending. To me it seems kinda like an asspull to be honest. Maybe I should make a forum post about this in detail. I mean it’s a great VN, but that VN is proof as to why the “One True End” thing annoys me to all hell.

Ah, I see. I assumed you were talking about the yrue route as a whole.

[Happiness+]

Just now, Rain Spectre said:

  Hide contents

What the hell are you talking about? Tsugumi's route is the canon route of Takeshi's side. The events of the True Ending literally hinge on it. 

 

That’s my point exactly! All of her route is merely a stepping stone for the one true end, versus being an end in itself.

[Rain Spectre]

Just now, Happiness+ said:

That’s my point exactly! All of her route is merely a stepping stone for the one true end, versus being an end in itself.

So you're upset...because it was designed to be part of the larger plot and not just a self-contained little romance story? I don't quite follow that logic...

[Happiness+]

1 minute ago, Rain Spectre said:

So you're upset...because it was designed to be part of the larger plot and not just a self-contained little romance story? I don't quite follow that logic...

I am not upset like I was when I first read it. I just don’t like that kind of storytelling because it kinda defeats the purpose of being a VN. Because when someone asks me, is Ever17 nonlinear? Despite it having multiple endings, it’s actually a linear story that just likes to fuck with you. 

[Dreamysyu]

It's getting way too spoilery here, you know...

[Rain Spectre]

5 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

It's getting way too spoilery here, you know...

Well, when we're talking about endings, that's kinda inevitable. 

12 minutes ago, Happiness+ said:

I am not upset like I was when I first read it. I just don’t like that kind of storytelling because it kinda defeats the purpose of being a VN. Because when someone asks me, is Ever17 nonlinear? Despite it having multiple endings, it’s actually a linear story that just likes to fuck with you. 

So? Multiple route mysteries have been a major part of the medium since 1996. 

[Happiness+]

1 hour ago, Rain Spectre said:

Well, when we're talking about endings, that's kinda inevitable. 

So? Multiple route mysteries have been a major part of the medium since 1996. 

And? That doesn’t mean that they are good thing for storytelling. 

[Dreamysyu]

9 hours ago, LemiusK said:

Then you valued the destination. You're contradicting yourself.

How exactly is that a contradiction? If the journey itself is shit, there's no way that even a genius final ending is going to save it (khm, g-senjou).

I'd say, a nice overall idea which becomes apparent only after you analize the work as a whole might add a good "flavor" to a story and make it better than it would be without that idea. It won't save it if the game is simply boring to read.

9 hours ago, LemiusK said:

Is that a charage too, when the focus is only on the plot?

I'm not taking about charage here. I'd add MLA to this group even though it's definitely not a charge. I mean, sure, you can make a purely plot focused VN without adding any additional depth to it, but the question is, will your VN be worth reading in the end if you don't add any hook to it.

I mean, sure, I never said that every VN is going to fit this classification. I basically just added a few obvious hooks that came to my mind right away. I didn't play it, but from what I understand, the main hook in School Days is the choice system itself. Which could also work, of course, if it's done well.

As for the dragon story, I literally don't see what the hook is going to be from such a short summary. If I just described the plot to Fate without going into detail, it will also seem like a purely plot focused VN, you know.

Also, man, you're getting way too emotional there. Calm down a bit.

This is my last post on this topic, I feel like I don't even understand anymore what we are even arguing about at this point.

6 hours ago, Happiness+ said:

And? That doesn’t mean that they are good thing for storytelling. 

I see your point, but imo it's exactly the fact that all the routes matter is what makes the final route amazing. Well, to each their own.

[LemiusK]

1 hour ago, Dreamysyu said:

This is my last post on this topic, I feel like I don't even understand anymore what we are even arguing about at this point.

Don't blame me. You started it by tagging me first and then barraging me with that vague post about idea-based VN nonsense.

This will be my last post here in this thread as well, and probably future discussion threads like this too. I'm so done arguing back and forth only to repeat myself over and over again because of constantly being misinterpreted by certain individuals (not going to name who, you know yourself).

Don't bother quoting this post or tagging me in this thread; I won't reply. I won't even bother looking at your post because it might just trigger me into responding.

Edited November 30, 2018 by LemiusK

[Happiness+]

I think we just dodged major flame war. 

@Dreamysyu, thanks for seeing my point.