LemiusK

Swapped out a post I made in "YouTube Most Random" with another post and I'm posting this here instead, because it feels more appropriate. Nearing the end of Ever17, and all I could think of was this soundtrack... (Ever17 spoiler) Someone remake a fanmade version of Ever17 with this playing at the end please.

As someone who enjoys fully animated scenes over static VN images... This. This is perfect. This will be the most awesomest "visual novel" that I'll ever play. Period. Muv-Luv Alternative? Give me a break. Umineko? Get out of here. Fate/Stay Night? Hah! As if. Get out of the way. Steins;Gate the masterpiece is finally reaching its peak form, its utmost perfect form! ITS ELITE FORM! Es. Psy. Kongroo.

Don't blame me. You started it by tagging me first and then barraging me with that vague post about idea-based VN nonsense. This will be my last post here in this thread as well, and probably future discussion threads like this too. I'm so done arguing back and forth only to repeat myself over and over again because of constantly being misinterpreted by certain individuals (not going to name who, you know yourself). Don't bother quoting this post or tagging me in this thread; I won't reply. I won't even bother looking at your post because it might just trigger me into responding.

Honestly, I don't know where I've stated that the "True End" nullifies the effect of prior routes. Show me proof that I have said that. I've merely shown that stories without True Ends can be functional as VNs, not that VNs with True Ends are bad. I don't even know how you arrived at that conclusion, which is simply not true. Irony.

@Dreamysyu Also, are you seriously going to ignore my "boy defeats dragon" story? Where's the character development in that? Is that a charage too, when the focus is only on the plot?

Then you've completely misinterpreted my point.

But there's no character development. There's only a story about good guys catching bad guys. Never did I mention in my statement that there's some kind of backstory about the yandere. Then you valued the destination. You're contradicting yourself.

@Dreamysyu: I still feel like idea-based stories can be worked without an enforced order, just that not many writers have figured out an effective way of doing so yet (myself included). This kinda goes back to your point #1: mysteries without a "true" conclusion to leave readers to figure out the real truth. I think the same could be pulled off for "ideas," because an idea can be multi-faceted and layered, depending on if your idea is a philosophy, science, religion, etc. Many arguments of a single idea can be formed in any order, and the reader can still put together these arguments by himself to form a coherent thought. So even if you compared it to an "essay," I still don't believe an enforced order is required. In fact, since you brought up the analogy of an "essay," I'll offer a similar analogy. Let's say a teacher instructs an entire classroom to write essays on a single idea. For the sake of this discussion, let's treat these multiple essays as "routes." These essays are all about the same idea, but told through different perspectives. Do you need to read Student A's essay before Student B's? Nope. You could easily read Student C's thesis on this specific part of the idea first, then move on to see what Student A has to say about the same idea. Let's break it down a little so I could explain this better. Let's say VN-X is about an idea. The idea is "Crime in Japan". We have five routes, and each route is dedicated to exploring the different types of crime Japan faces. Do you need a proper order for that? I don't think so. I guess you can maybe consider this as a "world-building" story (although do you even need to build "Japan" for Japanese people in the first place?), but really, the story idea is more about the grim situation Japan might be facing with the high crime rates going on in the forms of various crimes. In other words, it's an episodic story that's also an idea-based story. But let's say we have a more traditional story with a more fictional setting. Let's say we have a VN-Z. The story idea is simple: a boy defeats a dragon. How can you tell such a story through multiple endings of equal significance? The same way you tell the story in your classic "Choose Your Own Adventure" books; offer different ways to fight the dragon, and describe in detail these different methods the boy utilized to defeat the dragon. I think when it comes down to it, reader satisfaction depends on ONE important factor: do you value the destination, or do you value the journey? Most people would choose the former, but for those who value the latter, "the journey" in question is basically the journey you take from one route to another, exploring the different sides of the story without a clear destination. You can basically just read about hundreds, if not thousands of heroic tales about a boy slaying a dragon without requiring some "One True End" if you're the latter type of reader. This is all just theorycrafting on my part, of course. I haven't read nearly enough VNs to list many examples of novels that utilized the above theory into their writing, but I'm at least knowledgeable enough in how VN routes work to at least show how such a style of writing (with multiple significant endings) might work. In theory. But if you want a more solid example, let's use an existing VN and theorycraft using its structure: School Days. Could you imagine if the writer used the massive branching design for a completely different type of story? Like say, helping a mental patient yandere recover from her murderous tendencies (which is as close as you can get to what School Days is about without adding romance or hentai)? Think about how School Days was written. Think about its endings, and how certain endings show what happens after the tragedy and can stand on their own as a proper ending, albeit a bittersweet ending. Think about how each character has more than one good ending (or to put it in another way, more than one "true end"), and how those good endings can also stand on their own as a satisfying ending. Now, I would like to improve all of that by turning School Days from a moege to a plotge. The plot is what I've already mentioned (stopping the yandere). Just like School Days, there are multiple ways the plot can end in a satisfying manner. For the sake of this theorycraft, please think of the name, "Yandere" as one of the girls you know from School Days, while the protagonist is Makoto. 1) The yandere kills the protagonist, and his family mourns his demise. But, the family moves on and seeks justice against the yandere, and the story's main character is now one of the family members instead of the deceased protagonist. The story ends with them succeeding, ending in a more traditional "true end" way where the good guys win. But that doesn't make this a true end. It's just "one of the endings." 2) The yandere dies, but the yandere's relative seeks revenge against the protagonist. The story ends with the protagonist convincing the family member that it was in self-defense. They both mourn over the yandere's death together. 3) The yandere seeks help in a mental hospital. This is the most typical kind of ending where everything wraps up, and therefore, can qualify as a true end. And yet, it's just...? That's right. "One of the endings." 4) The yandere seeks help in a mental hospital, but goes on a killing spree again. The yandere's family ends up being the ones who stop her. They mourn over her death with the protagonist, but they think of the good things about her rather than the bad ones. And so on and so forth. I could literally go on for quite a while how I can shape the story in such a way that all of the endings have equal significance, and all of the endings can have a satisfying conclusion. There is no romance, there is no dating; there's only plot. It's not a moege, it's a plotge.

Well, like alpacaman said, I'm sure it will all work out. Both Higurashi and Umineko turned rather overdone settings into unique ones after all.

Given what Umineko has done to the mystery genre, I'm inclined to agree with this. *crosses fingers for another deconstruction*

Yeah, that's what I thought too, your average "Battle Royale" storyline. I kinda hope it's not battle royale or gladiatorial games though, since that's kinda overdone in many Japanese stories already.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Japanese otome games. At risk of touching a sensitive subject, it's really not uncommon for Japanese stories to portray archaic and old-fashioned versions of gender roles ("Men must be strong and protect women!" "Women must be dutiful to their husband!"), which was what I meant when I said Japanese otome games seem to carry this trend of weak-willed protagonists.

Yeah, that seems to be the trend around otome games, I'm noticing. Obviously not all of them, but a trend indeed. Incidentally, Aoishiro is a Yuri game, featuring a headstrong female protag, and I'm kinda enjoying it so far (though its many translation problems and infodumping do bug me significantly). If only more otome games have a female protag like that. I'm sure there are headstrong women out there who would play otome games too, you know! I'm sure a lot of girls wanted to dress up as Saber in Halloween.

Man, that's a lot of Vita-exclusives. lol I don't mind buying some of them to test out the Otome genre first but... shipping can be quite expensive. Hopefully, I could buy it second-hand on Ebay instead, from local owners living in the same country. I've tried Cinders. It was... okay, I guess. The lack of voice-acting made the experience rather boring though... lol Never got to finish it. But the story does seem interesting, since it seems to be a deviation from your usual Cinderella story. Think I might give it another shot next time. I really love twisted fairy tales...

I read that women in Japan tend to take a more submissive role in their relationship. That was from an article years ago though, so I don't know if it still holds true, but it would explain why you would see protagonists like that... Yeah. Gender roles in Japan is problematic, to say the least.

Yeah, I feel the same. It's definitely an interesting change in perspective, so I'm quite open to trying out such a new experience too.

So, so relatable... The "When They Cry" series is probably one of the most "sensitive to spoiler" franchises out there... Shouldn't have Googled. Learned from past mistake...

No harm done. I can definitely understand the "it's a girl thing" prejudice many male VN readers hold. It's just human nature, unfortunately, even if I could understand where they're coming from. Good to know. Definitely will be on the lookout. Heh, sounds rather interesting. An amnesiac protagonist in a story of multiple romances definitely has very interesting story potentials. Thanks for the insight.

I did find FemShep from Mass Effect much more interesting than MaleShep - however, that is largely attributed to the badass voice acting by Jennifer Hale, something that just isn't possible with voiceless protagonists in VNs. A person's voice makes up at least 20% of their personality (and whether or not said personality is interesting is determined partially by that) IMO. For me at least. This isn't a problem with male protagonists if you're a male, because you're basically inserting your own voice (and for certain protagonists that are basically a "blank slate" tabula rasa character, your own personality too). This part was definitely not necessary, and came off as a bit accusatory. But I get your point. It's a sentiment that would inevitably come up in such a thread anyway. Incidentally, I'm not homophobic nor am I "disgusted" by playing a girl. Please, I'm not a kindergartener.

Thanks (ran out of reactions for today ). I actually own a PS Vita, and even though my local PS store probably won't sell them in English, shipping the physical copies shouldn't be an issue. It's one of the few times I'm actually glad I bought a Vita in spite of its reputation... Incidentally, what do you think of Amnesia?

It's definitely out of the norm, where visual novel stories are considered. It's not impossible, since even something military-ish like Muv-Luv Alternative has its own share of mystery elements, but it's definitely uncommon. However, I'm not that surprised, since Umineko was a vastly different story in tone and genre from Higurashi. I'm glad to see he continues with such variety in writing (unlike Higanbana...).

Can't wait for the PS4 patch Man, Ryuukishi07 still hasn't abandoned that artstyle, huh? I know a lot of people claimed that there's a charm to that style, but it's an eyesore to me. That being said, Umineko no Naku Koro ni was a VN that I had the highest regard for, with Steins;Gate coming second. I liked the story waaaaay more than the much more popular Fate/Stay Night, what with how elaborate the story is, and all the attention to details Ryuukishi put into it. Higurashi was also one of my first anime and one of my favorites too, so there's definitely a lot of love here for Ryuukishi. I wasn't too satisfied with Higanbana, but this one looks much more promising (and action-packed too). Can we perhaps see yet another variation of (Umineko spoilers) Can we expect more exaggerated and over-the-top action sequences? Can we expect more hilariously ridiculous 'Engrish' usage (DEATHDEATHDEATH)? Please promise me on that last one at least, if nothing else. Ohhhh, the anticipation is tight. I'm looking forward to this almost as much as the Tsukihime remake.

A much more straightforward and simple topic than my last one: otome games, do guys out here on Fuwa play them? If so, did you enjoy them? I'm curious because I've seen quite a number of otome games coincide with "my type" of VNs (lots of choices, multiple endings), so I was wondering if there's any appeal to them at all for straight males like myself. Does the fact that the "romance" involves guys affect your enjoyment? Or do you simply not care if there's a good story involved?

Company, I suppose. Misery loves company. It's hard to go through tragedies alone. To have a story reflect that and understand your misery, that can be... uplifting in its own way. In fact, some people are addicted to misery. It's an escapism too of its own form.

This is kinda unrelated but, I'm currently reading Swan Song, and I already feel like I would need to play a happy one after this ends...