LemiusK

Hm, you're right. But I feel like somehow, that has more to do with the publishers reading review numbers off a chart, thus still considering the "mainstream" amount of "good reviews" rather than intentionally going for actual good stories.

Precisely why a number of true endings just made me think, "So that's it? That's all there is?" I guess that sometimes, our own imagined ending, our own expectations of what the ending would be like, is just that much more satisfying or amazing than what the true ending turned out to be. A mystery box has unlimited possibilities, much like Schrodinger's Cat, 'till you open it up only to find a cheap copy of Batman v. Superman! God, the horror! Ahem, anyway, you're correct in that satisfying endings are rather few in numbers. I think this is especially true if the main body of your story, especially the "climax," is very amazing and groundbreaking. Your ending not meeting that level of spectacle can leave readers hating the story, because the ending is what readers have to leave with after they finish the story. It's the very last imprinted memory they'll have of your story, so it's no surprise that the ending tends to leave a stronger impression on most people than the main body itself. While it's true that "the journey matters more than the destination," an adage that I personally agree with, not many people tend to see it that way. Some even think that how the story ends determines the overall quality of the story, even if the poorly written ending makes up less than 3% of the story. I think that's just the kind of mental attachment people have with endings in general. One reason I could think of why people might feel this way is because of the impact. "Does this ending impact the characters' future in a positive way?" "Does this ending add anything important to the story, or is it just some contrived way to end it?" I think people tend to get too attached to "the proper structure" of the story rather than see the stories for what they are and appreciate them, but honestly, I fall into this mindset more often than not, so I can't blame them. It does make you wonder. But I think it's just a case of "they're more profitable and accessible by the mainstream audience." Happy and neat endings are easy to sell because they are easy to like. I would imagine, groundbreaking storylines that defy common tropes and cliches are almost always secondary considerations for the publishers who localize and translate VNs for commercial purposes. People have to make a dime.

It's happening! It's finally happening! I knew that with that many top-tier Hollywood actors having the same name, this was bound to happen!

Well, yeah, particularly in modern times, with the likes of Dark Knight and Zack Snyder. Balance is good. Just like how Superman reflects the light and optimism of humanity, Batman reflects the darkness in us all humble humans. Balance is important. Not too light, but not too dark. ...which is why you SHOULDN'T MAKE SUPERMAN MOPEY AND MOROSE! HE'S SUPERMAN! SUPERMAN.

Yep, I agree. I was just thinking of Angelic Howl as I was creating this thread. That's a prime example of "tragedy done right."

Clannad's ending in particular makes me cringe, especially now that you've brought up AIR's ending. I respect that, and I understand this thread will most probably receive similar responses regarding escapism. That said, I feel like there's also a kind of satisfaction that comes from stories that reflect our reality and makes us think, "Oh yeah, that's true. Never thought of life like that before." Some level of realism is necessary, I think.

This thread is a variation of sorts from Rain Spectre's topic about ending structure. A trend I noticed about "True Ends" is that many of them can have predictable sappy ends where everything turns out alright, or at least much happier than "Normal Ends" and, of course, "Bad Ends." As with all things in life, there are exceptions, of course, like Heaven's Feel in Fate/Stay Night, but most of them are so "wrapped up" and tied with a tidy little ribbon bow, where every protagonist makes it out alive and move on with their life. Obviously, real life doesn't work like that and sometimes, such a formula can feel trite and unrealistic. Sometimes, even the "Bad Ends" can be much better written than the "True End" because of this. This might surprise you, but many people actually like tragic endings. If that's not enough to shock you... many people actually like feeling sad, which is why they read sad stories that make them cry. There's a catharsis that comes from crying or even seeing fictional characters go through tragedies that reflect our own. Sometimes, the "Bad End" is just that powerful or impactful enough that the "True End" feels predictable, generic, or just plain lame. Personally, I don't mind "True Ends" that are written well, but sometimes, I do find myself preferring the more emotional and depressing "Bad Ends," especially when I'm a sucker for tragic stories myself. I don't really like it when everything gets "wrapped up" neatly at the "True End." That just cheapens the value of "Bad Ends" since they are just going to turn out alright in the end anyway, no point crying over some pointless "Bad End." In particular, Cartagra made me feel something like that. That's why I preferred the "Normal End," especially where Kazuna's life decisions are concerned. Anyway, enough about me. What about you? How do you feel about "True Ends" being predictable and schmaltzy mainstream material? Do you like any particular "Normal Ends" more than "True Ends"?

Exactly my point. You're repeating my point - that the problem lies with the plot, not the structure of multiple endings. Think about it. If Heaven's Feel wasn't a subversion, if G-String isn't a mystery thriller that needs an "answer route," would they need or feel like they need a 'true end'? It's not the multiple endings that's the issue here, it's the content (and perhaps even the genre) of the story. By the way, in case you misunderstand, I'm not saying that those stories are bad because they have OTEs; I'm saying they need "One True Ends" because of what the stories are about. As for Grisaia, "broad strokes" or not, they still tell a story of importance telling about the personality and backstories of the main characters. Whether you like it or not, that's what a story can be - an episodic story exploring multiple characters. It's a proper structure and can be satisfying to some other than yourself.

Hm... that's simplifying things a bit, I think. The goal could have easily been to make the reader feel good about a slice-of-life setting spent with multiple characters, or the goal could have been a horror episodic story (like Hell Girl); both of which could be easily achieved with multiple endings, and neither of which are bad goals nor do they create bad stories. So yeah, I think you're simplifying things too much, not just a bit. How many are there that doesn't require a summary at all? Not many. That's the problem. Writers are too narrow-minded in their creativity. Again, this goes back to how the stories are written - Grisaia needs a summary of Yuuji's past, G-senjou needs Haru to be the "true" heroine, and Fate/Stay Night just happens to end with Heaven's Feels being unlocked in the final order, giving a false illusion that it's the "True" and "final" route - none of this has to do with the structure of multiple endings. All of them have to do with the writer and how he writes his story. Also, speaking of romance games, Da Capo was actually wasn't a bad story in its own right, telling about multiple aspects of the Da Capo universe through its multiple characters and endings. So despite being a romance game, it's not weird or incoherent at all. If anything, it feels much more consistent than Clannad, which suddenly has a True End out of nowhere. I think the real issue here is that, you keep trying to enforce this view that "Only One True End" is the way to go, but such a narrow-minded way of thinking just stifles creativity in writing, preventing experimentation with VNs with multiple endings, therefore creating the aforementioned problem of writers being too scared to experiment with multiple endings of equal significance in the first place. It's a vicious cycle.

Rewatching episodes of the Hong Kong drama, "Journey to the West" (1996). I only rewatched one episode the other day for the fun of it, but I found myself hooked enough by the story to keep watching. lol Probably not going to have too much time watching this though, what with my VNs, so I'm only watching a single episode every now and then.

Well, not necessarily for me. I go for the story (I don't like romance), but I still prefer open options because it feels more realistic (and impactful, having that personal choice to the ending you pick).

Which is a shame when you think about it, since such a story structure can be utilized for so much more than "My waifu is teh best!" That being said, I haven't expanded my search to western VNs yet, so perhaps western VNs have better use of the structure than moege.

Exactly. So the problem has less to do with the existence of multiple endings, and more to do with what kind of ending structure is appropriate for specific kinds of stories or '-ges.' Yep, that's my point. The definition of moeges and whether if they're dating sims was irrelevant to what I was saying. I was referring to the story structure, not the story context.

It feels natural because the story demands it to be natural. If you take away all the lore and the mystique and the mystery portions of the story, the story doesn't need a True End because everything - the characters' backstories - have been explained. In other words, whether a story needs a True End to feel natural or not really depends on the nature of the story. And no, a "slice of life" moege where you hang out with multiple girls isn't a dating simulator nor is it a bad example of a coherent story. It's still a story told from multiple perspectives. Remove the romance of moege and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between such a story and your average ensemble cast story, where the protagonist perhaps form friendships with multiple characters. The romance/dating aspect here is irrelevant to the point I'm making, that moege stories still work as a functional, satisfying story even without a True End. In fact, there's a term for stories like these - it's called an episodic story. A story that consists of multiple side stories. There are many highly acclaimed episodic stories out there that are just as satisfying, if not more so than stories with a single ending, because it's like you get to experience three to four stories in the same canon world/universe at the same time. When all is said and done, however, I feel like we'll just be arguing back-and-forth without arriving at a conclusion, because reader satisfaction in this context is highly subjective.

Actually, you couldn't just ignore those "links," particularly if you refer to what @Akshay said earlier about multiple perspectives. These different routes might be independent, but they are very much like the routes of Cartagra, offering multiple perspectives on character backgrounds and personality. In that sense, they are telling one huge story, but from multiple perspectives. It's not a perfect example, but you could at least see how a story can be told in such a way, through multiple perspectives. If Grisaia didn't pull it perfectly, then I'm sure other writers very well could utilize this design as well. This is especially so if you consider Yumiko's extreme reaction in Michiru's route. I'm sure I don't need to name which one. It shows a side of her you normally wouldn't see in other routes, at least in regards to how she treats Michiru and feel about her. Taking such perspectives into consideration, think back to Ever17 and how it also offers perspectives on the other heroines. Ever17 might as well be a dating simulator too if you feel Grisaia is one, since the routes also explore the different backgrounds of the different heroines. I just don't think calling either of these VNs a "dating simulator" is accurate, or very fair. It's simplifying things. In other words, "dating simulator" or not, the different routes offer a coherent story where you could learn about the multiple characters and their backgrounds. Both Ever17 and Grisaia have accomplished the same task in that respect. Arguably yes, it's still a whole cohesive story. But Steins;Gate shows well enough that even without the True End, those stories still work. That's the point I was making, not whether if Steins;Gate has a True End or not.

Well, it really depends on what you mean by "stand by their own." If you mean if they could work as individual stories and still be enjoyable, then look at Steins;Gate and its various endings which could work as separate stories, even if you don't find out about certain information. A lot of stories don't have the full information behind the mystery revealed by the end, but they nonetheless "stand by their own" as stories. Steins;Gate is no exception. Then there's Ever17, specifically You's ending which felt the most like your generic romance. Not going to spoil the ending, but if you've finished You's route, you know what I mean by "generic." It pretty much felt like a complete end, even if the mystery wasn't solved. And then and then, you have stuff like "The Fruits of Grisaia", which you can't really label as a "moege" per se (it's more like a charage). All of the routes have standalone stories that work just fine on their own. In fact, Grisaia is the ideal example that a VN CAN work in spite of a lack of "True End"; sometimes the experience is even improved by such a design. Of course, Frontwank f***ed it all up in "The Labyrinth of Grisaia", but that's another topic.

Well, yeah. A lot of the things you said are true. Visual novel is a rather complicated medium with a lot of potential for unorthodox storytelling like this. What I said before and what you quoted from my post, that's just a flaw some VNs with "True Ends" can face. It's like you said, "This isn't always the case." It really depends on how the writer structures the story. But because it's such a complicated and fluid medium, where you can shape the story in such a wide variety of ways, I do find the traditional linear story with a single "True End" kind of a pity in some aspects. Again, this isn't always the case, but I've seen some VNs that don't make good use of the branching system VNs offer. Yeah, I pretty much couldn't remember half of the lore of Fate (though I did remember that there's some form of in-game explanation for its multiple routes). Thanks for the reminder. Good to know that the fandisc is canon.

Couldn't get this outta my head ever since Fallout 76's trailer. Makes me want to just shout "COUNTRY ROAD! TAKE ME HOME!" for the lulz.

I know this game has problems, but if your game is so bad it gets a WatchMojo video made, you done f***ed it up, big time.

That's not HF's epilogue. That's the epilogue for the "Fate" route. Different universe and different route. Since the context of our argument here is that HF is the one giving closure, not "Fate" route, your point is... kinda dubious. And besides, that's a pretty sloppy epilogue. It felt less like an epilogue and more like a pity-f*** for Saber fans. Worse, it's a last-minute pity-f*** that was only included in Realta Nua probably because the writers didn't want to put in effort for the complaints regarding HF.

Never get into a Type-Moon argument, because personal opinions be damned in them. And yes, this is a Type-Moon argument... lol Anyway, Sakura sucks. The end. Get salty please. Also, Same problem Muv-Luv Alternative had in the final arc, but on a much larger scale. At least that dubious h-scene in Alternative wasn't a significant part of its story. Nasu went full pervert on HF. Never go full pervert. Yeah, I guess... if you don't care about one of its most important characters that began the story. It's unsatisfying, even if you treat it as a normal non-VN story. It's structurally unsound and broken if you consider HF to be the closure and "final act" of the story.

Two things. 1) A collection of loosely connected stories can be enjoyable in some cases, particularly slice-of-life VNs where you're just enjoying spending time with girls. 2) I hate, hate Heaven's Feel, period, because of what happened to Saber. Even UBW, my second most disliked route, at least had Saber in a rather 'happy' state. There's none of the so-called closure you talked about for Saber in HF, which ironically contradicts what you said. Besides, hollow ataraxia, the sequel to FSN, completely invalidates HF as the True End by having Saber as a character. Edit: Okay, never mind. I take back that last point. Ataraxia is a fandisc, not a sequel. My bad. Adding on to what I said about "loosely connected stories." Not every story has to have a three-act structure. Similarly, not every story needs to have a single ending to be a good story. That limits the imagination of the writer, and stifles creativity IMO.