LemiusK

Yeah, I understand that feeling. On a related note, Swan Song is a better read than Ever17 for me right now, even though I only just started with the former. The better artwork is certainly one of the factors for my enjoyment, but the characters and the depressing situation they're trapped in certainly felt more interesting than the more slice-of-life feel of Ever17, what with those kids fooling around in a comedy setting. Personally, I don't mind looking for my next VN before finishing my current one, because I tend to worry more about my source of entertainment depleting at some point, so I'm always looking out for more. At times, I do rush into a new VN that looks more fun than the current one I'm reading, but I can't say that bothers myself too much. If the VN I'm reading is that boring and fails to keep me hooked, then I shouldn't force myself to indulge in it just because it's some highly-acclaimed kamige like Muv-Luv Alternative or even Umineko. Like Dreamysyu said, it's an entertainment, not a job. It's a bit of a waste, I suppose, but I could always come back years later and give it another chance, just to see what all the fuss is all about. I'm doing such abandoning of VNs far less often nowadays because I have more spare time on my hands, but I still believe in such a principle. The world has much more great stories and entertainment out there waiting for me to experience them, many of which aren't even VNs, so I don't feel pressured to finish a VN if I'm bored.

So, even a serious story like Swan Song has gratuitous sex scenes. Can't say I'm surprised, since sex sells, especially in Japan. But I am a tad disappointed. I pretty much skipped all of it out of boredom. None of it interested me and felt like a waste of time. Could have easily summed up their romance with a two minute scene like a normal story would. Furthermore, here comes the part of the story where everyone needs to be attached to somebody. It's such an old and dated cliche of VNs that I'm honestly sick of it. Wonder if I mean, it might sound disturbing, but since you're going out of your way to feature h-scenes, might as well include her.

Well, I'm a bit of an anomaly. Like I said, my attention span is short, possibly even to the extent of ADD, so my case is not exactly the normal kind of behavior most people would exhibit.

I don't think I'll ever not read multiple VNs at the same time. Personally, I'm more likely to stop reading a VN if I'm only reading one or two stories at the same time because of the lack of variety. For someone whose attention span is as bad as mine, I simply can't stand sticking to one routine for a long time. More often than not, I stopped reading VNs, watching anime, or playing video games because I was seeking something else more interesting, because I was getting that bored of the same scenery. So in order to keep myself interested, visiting six different worlds of different genres at the same time seems to be a more efficient method so far working for me. If I had forced myself to read The Labyrinth of Grisaia in one go (instead of splitting it up between my reading of other VNs), I think I would have dropped it long ago. Same with The Fruit of Grisaia. As fun as the comedy was, as great as the story might be, the lack of variety is the killer of interest for myself.

Probably the masochism side of it. People can have the weirdest fetish, after all. NTR seems relatively normal in comparison. If anything, I'm more weirded out by the appeal of tentacles. Sure, they're phallic-shaped if you use your imagination enough... but at the same time, they are slimy, inhuman tentacles. It's just plain weird. Big breasts and MILFs too, but at least those are easier to understand.

Got the Normal End of Migiwa in Aoishiro. Unlike the previous Normal End I reached where the story ended abruptly, this was far more like a conclusion. Of course, being the Normal End, it's also quite abrupt in itself. It's been quite a while since I started playing this. There have been frustrating moments with the translation, and even though the Japanese/Buddhist folklore still don't really interest me much, the good moments made it a decent read. The branching of the story is something that's particularly impressive, or at the very least, fascinating. Unlike your traditional moege, the multiple routes of Aoishiro feel like an actual adventure game rather than just "pick the girl you like," especially since it's implied that there are multiple ways to "win" a happy ending and beat the bad guy. I've only just started my first route, so I don't want to get ahead of myself and make assumptions before I see the complete flow chart, but if the branching is anything like I imagined, playing out the main story itself in multiple ways (as opposed to your traditional "common route splitting into separate side stories unrelated to each other" structure), then this is a structure that's a favorite of mine. G-Senjou no Maou has something like this, where there's also multiple ways to end the story, but it's still a more linear kind of bottleneck design: where the common route splits into different girl-routes on its way to the true end (think of the green box in the image above as G-senjou's true end). This is also Root Double's structure, where instead of side stories, the branches are bad ends instead. Same with The Fruit of Grisaia, where the green box this time is Sakaki's route. Aoishiro, on the other hand, from what I could figure so far, looks more like this: where one of those endings is the true end. So it's definitely a structure I prefer over your traditional VN structure. It's definitely way more difficult to design and write, because of the massive branching it can lead to, but it also leads to more variety in the story and feels more like a video game than just a novel with side stories. But again, this is all just speculation on my part. I've only just started, so I could be completely wrong for all I know, and its structure might be more linear than I thought, and everything I said might just be wishful thinking. Again, need to see the flow chart once I complete the game first. On the story side of things, particularly the romance, the yuri aspect is cute. Naturally, I picked Migiwa immediately because of my tomboy fetish. But other than that... the story itself isn't really anything to write home about. Kinda like how Ever17's main appeal is its mystery aspect rather than its story and characters, Aoishiro's main appeal is its branching structure. The story, chalk full of folklore galore, might appeal to those studying buddhist culture, but outside of its folklore, it's a pretty straightforward good vs. evil story... from what I could tell so far.

Hm. Can't say I really "like" other languages aside from English and Japanese, since I don't really encounter or use other languages that often. Mandarin is my second language, but I have a difficult time reading traditional Chinese characters, so the "simplified" form is the way to go for me, and even that can be a challenge for me. I use Hokkien (a Chinese dialect) quite a lot around the house, but again, it's not really a language I "like" or anything, just a tool I happen to use. Cantonese has its appeal, since I happened to grow up watching quite a few Hong Kong drama/movies as a child. For me, I really see languages as tools rather than some passion of mine, but if you really want to get into it, I guess you could say I do happen to like songs of certain languages over others. Growing up with a Chinese background, Mandarin and Cantonese songs are a big influence, and I found myself preferring their more emotional and passionate style of music over English music at times (I still prefer English music in general though if you ask me). I have quite a few Chinese songs I liked, not the least of which are Jackie Chan songs (yes, he sings, very well in fact). Also, Andy Lau songs are not bad too. Chinese songs are a funny thing, because they can be so overly sentimental and sappy at the worst of times (much like their movies), but I guess that's also part of their charm that appealed to me as well.

Man, 28 and single here. Not going to lie, it's kinda depressing, hitting 30s still single... Enjoy your 20s while you can...

Very nice list, thanks... although I most probably won't be able to watch any of these, what with my massive backlog of VNs. That said, it's not as if anything really catches my eye... except maybe Boogiepop by my favorite studio, Madhouse. No Madoka either... I haven't watched anime for a long, long time, so I haven't really caught up with what's trendy in the anime scene. So, I don't really know what's popular here, which franchise people are following, etc. Oh well.

6. 5s remind me of a lot of nukiges I read, particularly those 'translated' by Mangagamer. Those are rather awkward to read, and because the translation is so bare and minimum, lacking most of the interesting nuances that would have made reading the texts alone entertaining, there's very little enjoyment that comes from reading these VNs or the dialogue spoken. Thankfully, nukiges' real enjoyment value lies somewhere else... 6s is the least I could tolerate if the VN I'm reading is a serious non-nukige story, because this time, I'm actually reading the VN for its story (and by extension, dialogue and narration), not for its... you know, ecchi stuff.

Most of these hats look good. Can I leave it up to you to decide instead?

That's actually something I noticed towards the end, that Agreed. By having It's sad that the plot-device destroyed the story.

Yeah, the Blick Winkel side-plot was one of its key problems that made the ending unsatisfying because it's a deus ex machina, and DEMs are often cheap and contrived. While the DEM did play with the element of silent protagonists in VNs, which was honestly brilliant back in the day, I think its existence created more problems rather than benefiting than story. It's a gimmick, and a gimmick that removed any tension the reader might feel. Because BW is God, as you say, there's no tension, and the plot is ruined. You don't sacrifice your story for a gimmick, no matter how clever it is. I'm of the more traditional school of belief that character comes first, plot comes second; everything else after, including plot-hooks and gimmicky plot-devices. That's not to say you can't have a complex mystery surrounding the plot, of course. But if your mystery gets in the way of keeping the readers caring about the most important thing that connects them to the story (characters), then I just feel that it's better to go for something else entirely. You know of the term, "page-turner", right? Well, Ever17 was like the opposite of that in Coco's route, especially towards the end. It was so obsessed in Blick Winkel remembering events that WE the reader should already experienced (and felt closure for), so obsessed in the gimmick that the writer forgot to keep the reader engaged with some kind of hook. Many of the events towards the end was so predictable that we were two steps ahead of Blick Winkel, knowing how it's going to turn out. That's not what a good page-turner should do, let alone a mystery story. In that sense, I feel like another cause for the pacing problem was because the truth was revealed by You-haru way too early. If I didn't know about You-haru's real plan, but was informed that Coco was trapped in Lemu, I would have been worried that she might not make it out alive. I think that they shouldn't have epilogues for all of the other routes, and only resolve all their conflict in the true end. That's the real main cause for Coco's route being so boring, because there's no real stake. So even if they had used Blick Winkel, they could still have a great story. The only problem being Kaburaki - his character was abandoned because of BW's existence, making Hokuto (and his character development) a separate entity from Kaburaki. I tend to have different opinions regarding most kamige, with the exception of the more mainstream kamiges like Steins;Gate. lol Ever17 just happens to be a kamige I disagreed with because it's such a niched VN that, as you say, isn't suitable for newbies.

Well, while I still find her cute in some parts, her comedy routine certainly did little to improve her route. At all. Her route was fucking boring. This is coming from someone who laughed at her first joke in the beginning of the story.

Do you know how hard is it to draw a hand? In fact, I heard that the hand is the hardest part of the body to draw on paper.

FSN for infodumping, and because each route has its own set of world-building, not to mention each route is its own three-arc structure story (from beginning to conflict to resolution). Muv-Luv Alternative is only second to FSN in terms of tedious infodumping, but is relatively shorter than FSN because of one-route-only. MLA's one route is equivalent to FSN's one route (maybe a bit longer) so... think about that. Grisaia also felt very long, but only because of its common route. Clannad for the same reason. Not all moeges/charages are always this long, naturally. Umineko, despite its length, kept throwing out ridiculous plot-twists to keep things engaging, all the way to its end. Thus, even its lack of choices didn't bother me much.

It's basically Higurashi's every story arc (plus the PS2 Matsuri, the DS Kizuna arcs, the Higurashi Rei arcs, and a special arc from the anime) combined together in a total of 20 arcs. That's why it's longer than Umineko's petty eight chapters plus some fandiscs. For me though, since I never bothered reading Higurashi (already watched anime), it's Umineko for me. Didn't try "Rance" because nukige... Fruit of Grisaia Muv-Luv Alternative Fate/Stay Night comes in second for me due to each of its route being the length of half a moege VN's length at least.

Yeah, 999 was definitely more polished, its ending more satisfying because all the closure was actually concentrated at the end, rather than diluted into separate routes. Virtue's Last Reward was even better because the character-writing was improved, and their personality more fleshed out than 999. Haven't played Zero Time Dilemma because of its reputation. Might try Never7 some time in the future.

Okay, so I was a bit impatient when pouring out my thoughts on Ever17, so I didn't quite write about how I feel about the VN as a whole, as opposed to just Coco's ending. This is kinda a summary of what I've already written in the "What Are You Playing" thread, so that you could better understand where I'm coming from. Any questions you have regarding my discontent that I haven't explained anywhere else, feel free to ask them in the comment section. BEWARE OF SPOILERS. For ease of reading, I'm not going to include any spoiler tag. First of all, I would advise reading this article. It explains quite well the problems with Ever17, and gave me some insight as to why I might not have enjoyed the VN as much as everyone else. For starters, contrary to that article author, I quite enjoyed every single other routes, even Sora's. They were emotional journeys that have a natural, if predictable character arc, where the characters go through a satisfying character development. I liked Coco, Sora, You, Sara, and even Tsugumi, and there's very little wrong about their routes, even Sora's. The problem is that all of their arcs and character conflicts were resolved within their routes. Where does that leave the true end? What will the true end resolve, then? Certainly not the character conflicts we've already seen resolved. That leaves the true route with only two purposes: revealing the "twist" behind the "accident" and "Coco's true fate." Like I have stated in earlier posts, Coco's true fate being revealed that late was a major problem, because it's not a conflict we readers were actively worried about during the other routes. It's only hinted upon in other routes that there was one other survivor in Lemu, but more often than not, it's suggested before Coco's route that Coco was 1) either rescued, or 2) she's a hallucination. Even if the suggestion for #2 for some people is that "she's a ghost," that doesn't make sense because of #1. In other words, it's very important that I KNOW Coco is in danger or didn't survive, or I wouldn't care much if she's alive at the end because of what was strongly implied (that she's rescued in the other routes). But I didn't learn about the danger she's in 'till the very end. And so, we arrive at the actual ending itself. So in summary: 1) all the characters' conflicts have been resolved in other routes, and 2) I don't care about Coco because I thought she was rescued. Therefore, 3) the true route doesn't have much point besides being an answer route. And that's where the problem comes in: the true route only serves to answer the mystery, not to mention throw in a twist about a fact that I never even bothered to care about before (that Coco might not have survived). This... isn't a good way to end a story. The ending is usually epic and full of closure to conflicts that haven't been resolved. Most importantly, it gives you that emotional satisfaction that the characters have come a long way in their character growth, which couldn't happen because their growth already ended where their routes ended. The only character development/conflict that wasn't resolved was Tsugumi finding her children, which only made up of a small portion of the route, because most of the route is either explaining the truth through flashbacks or filler comedy material (Coco messing around), making most of Coco's route feel dull, repetitive, and just tiresome. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy Coco's comedy routines, but because it's supposed to be the True End, the true route, I was expecting something more serious or resolute, something that brings all the threads together rather than just messing around with comedy. It threw me off a little, being an abnormal kind of true route/resolution. Finally, the ending also drags. After 10-20 minutes of the false conflict that Coco and Takeshi might be in danger (they're not, because 17 years is enough to prepare a sub), we are given another five minutes of Coco and Hokuto dragging out a comedy scene for way too long, and another 10 minutes of "closure" with everyone in a post-credit scene. Like I said, this ending feels unnecessarily long. I've already explained in detail (WAYP thread) why this happy ending being dragged out this long feels annoying and insincere. It's nice to see the characters all being happy together after the sadness some of them experienced, but the way it's written here, especially the post-credit scene where the story switches from one perspective to another, feels incredibly awkward and drags the entire ending out too much. We've already resolved the conflict for certain characters, so to "resolve" them a second time feels verbose. This ending could have easily been shortened to a five minute scene where the characters talked about the joy of being alive, and a short summary describing their future. That being said, I did enjoy some of the additional "closure" in this post-credit scene. You's closure felt the most satisfying, because we received additional information regarding her father. Sara's closure was already resolved in her route, so her additional closure here is pointless. Sora's closure was the second most satisfying because we got to see her interaction with Takeshi in a real body. Tsugumi's closure with her children was already resolved earlier, but her getting to see Takeshi alive again was a nice feeling, making her closure the third most satisfying. In summary, the post-credit scene was a little enjoyable, but because of the way it's written, its pacing dragged on. In closing, there's one more thing I want to talk about: Blick Winkel and the twist that he's us, the reader. Putting aside the fact that the identity of BW was unclear 'till the very end (again, I only found out because Google magic), it is, as I said in "What are you playing", a brilliant twist that does make me more impressed the more I think about it. It does make you think back to all the times when Takeshi/Kid weren't voiced - that person was literally you all the time. Gives you a different kind of perspective. It's a nice design, but unfortunately, it's really like what I've said before, I'm not a big mystery-buff. If the meat of your VN is the mystery, then I can only admire from afar, casually interested. It's like asking someone who's not into fashion to be impressed by the intricate designs of a dress. He can only give passing remarks and nods, not really appreciating the beauty comprehended by fashion-buffs. I'm someone who's more into emotional storytelling and character development - both of which were lacking in Coco's route, which made things incredibly disappointing. So that's all I have to say, and I hope this will give you a clearer understanding why I didn't enjoy the ending as much as I wanted to. I might still try out Never7 and Remember11 in the future, but with a far, far lower expectation from now on.

I'm sorry, but I've already seen didn't impress me. It's not the VN's fault because that particular VN was released way after Ever17, but still, it's an unfortunate fact that affected my enjoyment. The story explained away the same problem in a much more emotional and character-focused manner. In other words, perhaps Ever17 is just a tad dated. Edit: Also, yes, I would admit that the twist that was a nice twist, but that fact was kinda vague and unclear, so I didn't get to experience the "surprise" the game wanted me to... I thought he was just another character. Edit 2: I guess I should probably either drop Never7 and Remember11 or place them lower on my wishlist if they're also answer-focused stories rather than character (or emotion)-focused ones.

Ever17 Final Verdict Wow, so that epilogue sucks. Was thinking that I could at least kill some time by reading the Tsugumi-Sora epilogue first to avoid double-posting, but wow... that epilogue sure fell flat on its face. Pointless and utterly stupid. Its existence was far worse than Sora's route. Anyway, finally got through the True End. Thought it would never end. It's not a bad ending, but even though it answered most of the questions and mysteries, the ending still dragged on and on past the "answer" part of the story, making the ending feel unnecessarily bloated Sigh. I just think that it's way too verbose. It's funny that people were saying that this game is only worth playing for Coco's route, and while that's kinda true (because of the answers provided), I felt way more satisfied and emotional with You and Sara's epilogues. When I think about it, the reason for this is that Man, the more I think about Coco's ending, the more frustrated I am with this game, what with its failure to live up to its high reputation. Let's take a similar story and show how THAT story managed to make the ending feel powerful and earned, Final Verdict: 5/10 Yep. Edit: Sigh. Fine. Maybe that's a little harsh. I was just so pissed with the ending. I did at least enjoy the other routes, so that 5/10 score wouldn't reflect my enjoyment at all. Final Verdict: 7/10 Coco's route sucks. Now that I think about it, doesn't Coco's route feel like Saber's route in Fate/Stay Night? In other words, an infodumping route, where the "info" being "answers" instead? Most of the route involves answering the mysteries than focusing on introducing even more conflict to keep readers' heart beating. Much like Saber's route, which was more about talking about the lore of the game too. Furthermore, if you look at a VN with an "answer route" like Umineko, even that answer route "true end" tries to incorporate tension and suspense in the end, rather than just dump a bunch of answers on the reader. Don't tell me that all the praises Ever17 got was because of those answers? Pffthahaha, I really hope that's not the case, because then, non-mystery fans like myself who doesn't care for mysteries and answers would just be bored and indifferent... Was I supposed to be impressed by the answers?

Man, Ever17's ending just dragged on and on and on... It felt like I was watching the ending to "The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King". I kept finding myself distracted and switching to another VN because it's so boring. And that same soundtrack, that same song on loop; it kinda numbed my brain hearing the same music for 10 minutes. Ever17 definitely doesn't have a great selection of soundtracks.

Transferred from my "YouTube Most Random" post. Normally, I don't bother rereading stories that I've already read once, but with this one in particular, I might make an exception, especially with its fully animated scenes. In that sense, Steins;Gate Elite might just be reduced to a borderline VN, and not a true VN. lol Guess VNDB will have some trouble cataloguing it, considering what they said about School Days... Actually, this seems to be a much more appropriate way of reading the story, considering that when I played Steins;Gate the VN back then, I also played Steins;Gate the anime in the background just to watch the anime played out at the same time (meaning "Skyclad Observer" played during that particular scene instead of the VN's mundane soundtrack). In other words, Steins;Gate Elite basically offered the method I used to read Steins;Gate back then but repackage the method into a more convenient and entertaining form. Nice, nice. LOOKING FORWARD TO SKYCLAD OBSERVER IN THE VN. If it's not there, it's a fail, and "Elite" has no point in existing. That OST is a key ingredient! After thinking back on Steins;Gate, I have to say I retract what I said about Umineko being my most valued story, and this one definitely surpasses it with its equal balance of great characters, story, music, voice-acting, comedy, and most important of all, mainstream appeal. Umineko is kinda niched because of its mystery genre, but Steins;Gate has appeal in a broader area. Because of its entertainment value in such a wide variety of areas (though its comedy and soundtrack played a larger role, especially with Umineko's music being more orchestral, while Steins;Gate contained more rock or electronic music), I feel like Steins;Gate was able to appeal to a wider audience than Umineko. In other words, Umineko was like Lord of the Rings, and Steins;Gate was more like Star Wars. And no, the fact that it has choices and multiple endings has nothing to do with it, considering I loved Steins;Gate the anime before even playing the VN. Steins;Gate is just much more digestible and more entertaining that way because it doesn't trouble you with as much infodumping as Umineko, and thus, was easier to be adapted in anime form too. Umineko was definitely more complex (and therefore, harder to adapt), and if you've already read what I said about complex stories, you could easily tell why I prefer Steins;Gate. Footnote: I don't really like that there's a pre-order bonus. I hate pre-order bonuses in general, because it's a cheap way to exclude your customers from bonus material. It's almost like blackmailing in a way, or unfair coercing. With Steins;Gate Elite, it's basically excluding normal customers from two fandiscs, "Steins;Gate 8-bit", and "Steins;Gate Linear Bounded Phenogram". That latter fandisc is something I wanted to read for a long time, but the so-called "patch" only exists on YouTube in video form instead of a patch that you can apply to a game you buy, so I wasn't too comfortable watching that video. And now you're telling me that I can read it in game form, but I need to pre-order. It's just annoying. I could understand the sentiment, that "if you're that big of a Steins;Gate fan, then you shouldn't have a problem pre-ordering it." The sentiment, I could understand. But the action of coercing you to pre-order? I can't accept that principle. It's dirty and cheap. But I'll probably have no choice but to pre-order anyway, since I'm a huge Steins;Gate fan. That's the reality, and I just have to accept it.