Questions about Dies Irae routes *spoilers* (Kei ending mainly)

[out/cast]

I only finished Kei route for now, so i'd be grateful, if i nobody posted spoilers from other routes.

I have few questions, first - can i skip Kasumi route altogether, and still understand whole story/dont miss anything important? Im aware of suggested route order, but i
always go for best girl first, so i already "cheated". Thing is, im interested in other routes and story, save for Kasumi. 
So id gladly skip her completly, if i didnt miss anything that way.
Also, does this novel have *true* route(Rea's?) or all are considered equally canon?

Now, for Kei route - there are some things about ending, which i dont understand.
-Is Kasumi's child going to germany to open sfatika there? It sure looked like it.
-Also,after they escaped Reinhard's castle Ren and gang went destroying/sealing weapons but couldnt find anything about last 4 knights identity, do i think right, that 4 last
knights are (unwilingly) Ren,Shirou,Kei and Kasumi child? 
-If so, how is it possible, especially in Ren's case? 
Another thing, if im right - does that mean they will be forced to obey Reinhard? That would implicate that Kei's route is essentially bad ending (and i really hope its not),since he said that they are his already. Or will they just be forced to participate in another battle royale (resulting in Mercurious & CO. demise, how i'd like to headcanon) as potential gates for sfastika? I'd like to think that Ren is now strong enough to beat Reinhard after 20 years of training with his friends, judging how much progres he made in two weeks, and how Kei labeled him as prodigy.
-Are they "his" because he considers himself god now, or what did he meant?

Would be very happy if someone could answer, after beating all routes i will probably look analysis of DI story, but for now im too afraid of potential spoilers.

On a side not, have to say im little disapointed that Kei's route ended without proper conclusion, leaving too much to imagination, especially after all those Ren big words about "winning" his story with proper happy ending, reminded me little of Ayakashibito's Tonya route.

[Jartse]

Been a while since i read it, it's real hard to remember specifics when it comes to the end of that route.

I would still recommend Kasumi route even if you've read Kei at the very least for the awesome battle scenes, there's also background to the other routes in hers - in some cases knowing what the bad guys are/capable of makes it more interesting.

Kei's route ending is essentially an open ending. Technically they won because the ritual didn't complete and they retreated.

[Clephas]

9 hours ago, out/cast said:

I only finished Kei route for now, so i'd be grateful, if i nobody posted spoilers from other routes.

I have few questions, first - can i skip Kasumi route altogether, and still understand whole story/dont miss anything important? Im aware of suggested route order, but i
always go for best girl first, so i already "cheated". Thing is, im interested in other routes and story, save for Kasumi. 
So id gladly skip her completly, if i didnt miss anything that way.
Also, does this novel have *true* route(Rea's?) or all are considered equally canon?

Now, for Kei route - there are some things about ending, which i dont understand.
-Is Kasumi's child going to germany to open sfatika there? It sure looked like it.
-Also,after they escaped Reinhard's castle Ren and gang went destroying/sealing weapons but couldnt find anything about last 4 knights identity, do i think right, that 4 last
knights are (unwilingly) Ren,Shirou,Kei and Kasumi child? 
-If so, how is it possible, especially in Ren's case? 
Another thing, if im right - does that mean they will be forced to obey Reinhard? That would implicate that Kei's route is essentially bad ending (and i really hope its not),since he said that they are his already. Or will they just be forced to participate in another battle royale (resulting in Mercurious & CO. demise, how i'd like to headcanon) as potential gates for sfastika? I'd like to think that Ren is now strong enough to beat Reinhard after 20 years of training with his friends, judging how much progres he made in two weeks, and how Kei labeled him as prodigy.
-Are they "his" because he considers himself god now, or what did he meant?

Would be very happy if someone could answer, after beating all routes i will probably look analysis of DI story, but for now im too afraid of potential spoilers.

On a side not, have to say im little disapointed that Kei's route ended without proper conclusion, leaving too much to imagination, especially after all those Ren big words about "winning" his story with proper happy ending, reminded me little of Ayakashibito's Tonya route.

Spoiler

Yes, Kasumi's kid is going to Germany as Rea's replacement, to open the swastikas

Yes, those four are the new Knights

Ren was one of the Knights from the beginning, as 13, Zarathustra

If defeated, their souls will be devoured and turned into a part of Reinhardt's legions.  Because they entered his castle once, they are 'marked' to be devoured by him upon their deaths, regardless of how those deaths occur.  Strength in this particular incarnation of the Shinza universe is based off of the number and quality of souls dwelling in their weapons.  Wilhelm and Rusalka are about 20,000 (slightly above average for those outside the 'colors'), the 'colors' - including Makina, Schrieber, and Eleanor - are in the hundreds of thousands, and Reinhardt is in the range of several million.  Shirou is about equivalent to Wilhelm or Rusalka, as is Kei... and Ren is about roughly equivalent to one of the colors on a really bad day.  While Ren's new ability in Kei's path has an advantage against Reinhardt's aspect, it is insufficient to grant him victory as he is, regardless of training and experience.

Reinhardt is, as it is defined by the Shinza universe, a 'minor god', in the sense that he is not the main god of the current era... but anyone who has transcended their own humanity and rules over the souls of others is technically considered a deity by Shinza rules.

Kei's route isn't meant to be a conclusion, nor is Kasumi's.  Play Marie's and you'll understand why. 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by Clephas

[DharmaFreedom]

Spoiler

12 hours ago, Clephas said:

Kei's route isn't meant to be a conclusion, nor is Kasumi's.  Play Marie's and you'll understand why. 

@Clephas 

Based on the dialogues from Kei's and Kasumi's routes, It feels like the story is going to climax at Marie's route.

I'll be following the suggested route order, just wanted to ask if there's a true route in Dies Irae and if Marie or Rea's route is meant to be said route?

Are the routes just meant to foreshadow later events and everything gets reset after each route till the 'true' route, like just alternative scenarios? or are the experiences from other routes transferring to the future occurrences of the characters, through their souls?. 

I've only read Kei's and Kasumi's routes so far so no spoilers please! If it takes a spoiler to answer my questions just let me know if the answer will be revealed in the next routes. Thank you! 

Edited June 14, 2017 by DharmaFreedom

[out/cast]

Thanks for answers guys, especially Clephas. 
Can't say im very satysfied with how things look like.
As far as i understand your post, it feels like other routes just serve as extended prologue or some kind of bad,ominous endings. 
While i understand that those routes werent meant to be conclusion to whole story, they could at least be more conclusive to their arcs.
It really feels like ayakashibito, where only 1 route was "complete/true", and i cant say that's my cup of tea.
Its like choices werent there at all.
Probably gonna go for Marie's route first and then force myself to beat bakatsumi route, before Rea's.
Hope that Rea's route is as good as i heard.

Will still headcanon and pretend that in 20 years Ren gathered enough souls to crush Reinhardt and his sect, especially when with his new power he would be stronger with each knight defeated.
Meh, why its always my waifus, that get short end of the stick?

Edited June 14, 2017 by out/cast

[Clephas]

3 hours ago, DharmaFreedom said:

  Hide contents

@Clephas 

Based on the dialogues from Kei's and Kasumi's routes, It feels like the story is going to climax at Marie's route.

I'll be following the suggested route order, just wanted to ask if there's a true route in Dies Irae and if Marie or Rea's route is meant to be said route?

Are the routes just meant to foreshadow later events and everything gets reset after each route till the 'true' route, like just alternative scenarios? or are the experiences from other routes transferring to the future occurrences of the characters, through their souls?. 

I've only read Kei's and Kasumi's routes so far so no spoilers please! If it takes a spoiler to answer my questions just let me know if the answer will be revealed in the next routes. Thank you! 

Spoiler

Marie's and Rea's are both true routes... or rather, routes that put an end to the central conflict of the story.  Rea's alternate ending is considered the 'definitive' end to the game, but after the fan uproar with the release of KKK, no ending is considered canon.   The thing is, you don't even know what the central conflict of the story is - save for vague hints - until Marie's path.  It is in that path you learn something of the 'why' of the story.  Rea's... is much darker.

 

[out/cast]

1 hour ago, Clephas said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Marie's and Rea's are both true routes... or rather, routes that put an end to the central conflict of the story.  Rea's alternate ending is considered the 'definitive' end to the game, but after the fan uproar with the release of KKK, no ending is considered canon.   The thing is, you don't even know what the central conflict of the story is - save for vague hints - until Marie's path.  It is in that path you learn something of the 'why' of the story.  Rea's... is much darker.

 

 

 

And which ending of Rei is alt. one?

One you get by picking "danced to the..." or "...sought the truth"? Would like to know which should i read last.

Also, can you explain without spoilers what do you mean by fans uproar after kkk release? Was ending bad or just typical waifu wars?

 

Edited June 15, 2017 by out/cast

[Clephas]

17 minutes ago, out/cast said:

  Hide contents

 

And which ending of Rei is alt. one?

One you get by picking "danced to the..." or "...sought the truth"? Would like to know which should i read last.

Also, can you explain without spoilers what do you mean by fans uproar after kkk release? Was ending bad or just typical waifu wars?

 

Spoiler

Sought the truth is the most likely one... it has been a while since I played Amantes, so I can't be sure. 

The reasons for the uproar over the KKK release:

1) Marie's explosive popularity amongst fans.

2) There was a general feeling that KKK's existence 'tainted' Marie's ending

3) A lot of fans thought KKK was a bit too blatant about milking the cast of Dies Irae for the sake of sales, and that pissed off a lot of people, because of the abnormal degree of worship amongst the fans of that game in Japan. 

Note: It is impossible to talk about the reasons why there is no canon ending without spoiling both games.

 

[DharmaFreedom]

Spoiler

2 hours ago, Clephas said:

  It is in that path you learn something of the 'why' of the story.  Rea's... is much darker.

  Oh no! Dread! .  So after KKK's release and the uproar, they added the extra route and released Amantes as the definitive version that satisfied fans? I'll looking forward with the coming revelations in this story. I'm probably going to be throwing more questions your way in the future, so thank you for now and later! 

 

28 minutes ago, out/cast said:

what KKK stands for?

https://vndb.org/v5844     Kajiri Kamui Kagura

According to the guide "sought the truth" is the one you should read last. He did mention that people should just follow the guide closely. 

About you fan uproar question, Clephas knows all, so i'm sure he'll fill you in about that.

Edited June 15, 2017 by DharmaFreedom

[Clephas]

1 minute ago, DharmaFreedom said:

  Reveal hidden contents

  Oh no! Dread! .  So after KKK's release and the uproar, they added the extra route and released Amantes as the definitive version that satisfied fans? I'll looking forward with the coming revelations in this story. I'm probably going to be throwing more questions your way in the future, so thank you for now and later! 

 

https://vndb.org/v5844     Kajiri Kamui Kagura

According to the guide "sought the truth" is the one you should read last. He did mention that people should just follow the guide closely. 

About you fan uproar question, Clephas knows all though, so i'm sure he'll fill you in about that.

I don't know all... I just know what I read as things were playing out, since I was one of those enraged fans, howling at Light and calling KKK blasphemy.  While the explanation given after the fact makes sense, and it is now possible for me to enjoy KKK (though the explanation was soooo Masada), I still get angry when I remember what happened back then, lol.

[DharmaFreedom]

1 minute ago, Clephas said:

I don't know all

Lol I was joking, you do know a lot about Vn's though, since you've read so many and seem to have a great passion for it. Yeah I figured asking you about KKK would be pointless since you'll have to mention spoilers. Maybe they'll translate it in the coming years and I can comprehend the rage too. Hope DI's sales are good enough for Light to consider it. Thanks again for the knowledge  .

[Clephas]

9 minutes ago, DharmaFreedom said:

Lol I was joking, you do know a lot about Vn's though, since you've read so many and seem to have a great passion for it. Yeah I figured asking you about KKK would be pointless since you'll have to mention spoilers. Maybe they'll translate it in the coming years and I can comprehend the rage too. Hope DI's sales are good enough for Light to consider it. Thanks again for the knowledge  .

If you are confused after you've completed the entirety of Dies Irae...

 

Don't read this unless you have finished all the paths of Dies Irae and have no intention of learning Japanese/don't know Japanese - and so can't play KKK. (I mean it)

 

 

Again, do not read this if you don't fulfill the above conditions.  This will clear up at least some of the confusion for you if you meet them, but I do not recommend that you ruin Dies Irae's final two paths for yourself by diving into this, under any circumstances.

 

 

I did warn you, didn't I?  Reread the above if you didn't get it the first time.  Don't read the stuff in the spoiler box unless you have:

1: Finished all paths of Dies Irae

2: Do not know Japanese and have no intention of learning it, thus making it impossible for you to play KKK (which will probably never get a translation).

 

 

Spoiler

As it was explained at the time, Hajun, the god of KKK's world, basically trampled Marie after she became the god of her realm.  However, in order to get to Rea's path, Mercurius 'resets' the world once again and goes through it all to bring about a new outcome that results in both him and Reinhardt being completely erased from the picture as deities, since it was their presence that created the opening that allowed Hajun to exist in the first place.  In this way, Masada explained at the time, it can be said that all paths of Dies Irae are canon... or none... and Kajiri Kamui Kagura is a what-if story, if Mercurius failed to reset before Hajun took over.  Since this is hinted at by a momentary event near the end of Rea's path before the split in a really vague hard-to-catch way, it makes sense if you played close enough attention.

Spoiler

Basically, the point in the middle of his battle with Ren when Reinhardt basically goes 'Eh?! this isn't unknown after all!'.  It is hard to catch, as it is only one line.  This line indicates that the current timeline occurs after Marie's timeline, and, as a result, even his battle with Ren above the ruins of the city is already a 'known' factor to him.  Ren and Rea are never made aware of this, and it is pretty certain the only person who remembered/knew is Mercurius... and he isn't exactly sane after several hundreds of thousands of years of subjective time trying to make Marie into the goddess of the new world.  Further, Masada uses the fact that Rea was never Ren's lover, indicated by her own words in the KKK timeline, to justify this. 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2017 by Clephas

[littleshogun]

Well the question was already answered here I knew, but let me give some opinion in regard of KKK thing.

 

As for the spoiler in regard of Rea, I think it's probably some 'Author Saving Throw' from Masada himself because Marie's popularity like Clephas stated. For the transpired events, I would like to said that KKK uproar was probably began because of Marie's route thing and most importantly because Rea's route is canon in regard of becaming Ren's lover. So apparently Masada wrote something like Rea's was not Ren's lover in order to quell the fans out there, because Rea was only appear at the side story according to one spoiler that I'd read and therefore it should be the only chance that Rea tell something like that (Besides, Rea is about to marry Ren anyway, and the side stories came up later for PSV). In the end, it's up to your interpretation though and I think Rea's statement was made Ren's lover quite ambigious imo (Causing waifu wars ie Ship to Ship Combat should be the obvious effect, and also Fanon Discontinuity to KKK in regard of that to Ren x Rea fans).

As for Cash Cow Franchise, I already think that even before Dies Irae was translated, Light company itself already using the VNs that were wrote by Masada and their disciples as the mean to exploit their popularity. That being said, I appriciate that at least Light still put some effort to produce VNs outside Dies Irae universe, unlike age or Type Moon whose dependent on one franchise (Muv Luv and Fate respectively).

Edited May 3, 2018 by littleshogun

[out/cast]

Well, i read entire novel and my question answered themselves.
Have to to retract my statement about Kei's route being bad ending. 
After reading whole novel i consider it best ending, and since i know about main conflict/ways of beating mercurius i can see in a different light this ending and its consequences.

Couldnt resist and read spoilers about KKK and have to say 

 

this proves my theory that most VN shouldnt get sequels, they often just make things Needlessly complicated or just make more things wrong than right, cant say i dont understand marie fans. IMO atlus is doing this right, making every persona game with new cast, leaving fate of old ones to player imagination.
And after reading its short spoilery summary i cant say i want to read it anyway, but would be nice if other vn by light made its way to eu/us.

Edited July 1, 2017 by out/cast

[Exia_00]

I know this is weird but along all the girls, i liked kei the most. Somehow, i think the ren-kei couple is the best one. So now i want to know that after 20 year can ren and kei defeat reinhard?