Lack of antiheros/evil protag

[Stormwolf]

On 3/1/2016 at 3:45 AM, Funnerific said:

Anti-heroes are extremely rare in both VNs and anime and that's a fact. The Japanese are typically simply too idealistic and escapist to have them. Most of the protagonists presented as "anti-heroes" will almost certainly break their character soon enough, and not just once.

This is my impression as well.

[Tyr]

On 2016/2/29 at 11:55 PM, Decay said:

Naturally there's more to Japanese fiction than shounen or moe, but in manga that's most of what's out there. Just going by the raw percentages, there's simply more of that stuff. Same with VNs and charage/moege when you discard nukige.

Why do you want to discard nukige? Is a nukige any less VN than a charage/moege? The average nukige has probably better writing and more developed characters than the average moege and nobody ever questions that moege are VNs, so I really don't understand why people always hate on nukige as if they are in any way lesser works of art.

 

On 2016/3/1 at 3:45 AM, Funnerific said:

Anti-heroes are extremely rare in both VNs and anime and that's a fact.

It's not a fact. It's simply not true.

Anti-heroes are an integral part of the second generation of Japanese otaku entertainment. 80s anime are full of them. Edgy badass protagonists who only care about themselves. The same is true for when the first eroge were made in the late 80s. In most cases you had the same type of self-centered badass/pervert as the main character because the first eroge oftentimes were just like anime stories in this regard. This got even "worse" in the late 90s when many protagonists were getting even eviler, pushing the limits of what's acceptable and what's not, until there were some laws made in the mid-00s forcing eroge developer to step a bit down and lighten up their evil main characters a bit. This is something which is still true today. There are no pure evil protagonists anymore in non-doujin games, just like XReaper said. It's no coincidence that a company like Black Cyc had their golden age in the early to mid-00s.

Although today we have an excess of bland moege/charage, the fact that anti-heroes and evil protagonists are essential in the evolution of eroge is undeniable, just like with anime and manga. You guys certainly didn't consume enough Japanese fiction if you think otherwise. Or maybe darker stories aren't your thing? But then, please don't spread such nonsense like Japanese entertainment consists mainly of good and idealistic characters. It's not true. That's only a certain trope of a specific genre of this entertainment industry.

By the way, I also don't think that VNs have many really good guys as main characters to be honest. The characters who are not evil or anti-heroish are most of the time just ... bland. I would feel like insulting actual good people if I call hetare characters "good".

 

On 2016/3/1 at 3:45 AM, Funnerific said:

The Japanese are typically simply too idealistic and escapist to have them.

The Japanese are certainly escapistic, but not idealistic, at least not anymore. 70s anime were full of patriotic and idealistic characters, but today we only see these character types in Shounen anime anymore. The escapism of the new generation of otaku are edgy and rebellious chuunibyous like Lelouch. It's no wonder this character type is so common nowadays and it fits the modern definition of anti-hero just fine.

[Funnerific]

19 minutes ago, Tyrosyn said:

Why do you want to discard nukige? Is a nukige any less VN than a charage/moege? The average nukige has probably better writing and more developed characters than the average moege and nobody ever questions that moege are VNs, so I really don't understand why people always hate on nukige as if they are in any way lesser works of art.

It's not a fact. It's simply not true.

Anti-heroes are an integral part of the second generation of Japanese otaku entertainment. 80s anime are full of them. Edgy badass protagonists who only care about themselves. The same is true for when the first eroge were made in the late 80s. In most cases you had the same type of self-centered badass/pervert as the main character because the first eroge oftentimes were just like anime stories in this regard. This got even "worse" in the late 90s when many protagonists were getting even eviler, pushing the limits of what's acceptable and what's not, until there were some laws made in the mid-00s forcing eroge developer to step a bit down and lighten up their evil main characters a bit. This is something which is still true today. There are no pure evil protagonists anymore in non-doujin games, just like XReaper said. It's no coincidence that a company like Black Cyc had their golden age in the early to mid-00s.

Although today we have an excess of bland moege/charage, the fact that anti-heroes and evil protagonists are essential in the evolution of eroge is undeniable, just like with anime and manga. You guys certainly didn't consume enough Japanese fiction if you think otherwise. Or maybe darker stories aren't your thing? But then, please don't spread such nonsense like Japanese entertainment consists mainly of good and idealistic characters. It's not true. That's only a certain trope of a specific genre of this entertainment industry.

By the way, I also don't think that VNs have many really good guys as main characters to be honest. The characters who are not evil or anti-heroish are most of the time just ... bland. I would feel like insulting actual good people if I call hetare characters "good".

 

The Japanese are certainly escapistic, but not idealistic, at least not anymore. 70s anime were full of patriotic and idealistic characters, but today we only see these character types in Shounen anime anymore. The escapism of the new generation of otaku are edgy and rebellious chuunibyous like Lelouch. It's no wonder this character type is so common nowadays and it fits the modern definition of anti-hero just fine.

I admit I missed all the 20th century otaku content. Had no idea there was a law forcing eroge devs to make protagonists lighter, can you give the source on that?

Darker stories are my thing, I just try to avoid "dark" protagonists if I can help it. It's good if the darkness of the plot comes from outside.

Yes, nukige are the lesser VNs and by no means works of art. A game is a nukige when whatever story there is exists only to support the sexual content and can't have more plot than any moege. If there actually is good writing and plot, it's just a VN with high sexual content, please don't confuse the two.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Funnerific

[Tyr]

55 minutes ago, Funnerific said:

I admit I missed all the 20th century otaku content. Had no idea there was a law forcing eroge devs to make protagonists lighter, can you give the source on that?

It wasn't actually an eroge law. There was a ban on Eien to Natta Rusuban  which was the first time an eroge was prohibited since Saori if I recall correctly. It wasn't actually a big matter, they could sell the game again after they modified a character description in the booklet (booklet stated the main character is 12 and they just revised the age to unknown). But this incident kinda left a mark and developer got more careful about these matters. Nobody wanted a second Saori-incident where people actually got into jail because they went to far with this game.

Some years later the Rapelay incidence happened and well, the rest we all know. Today the law is much stricter than it was before thanks to the new Loli laws from year before last.
If I recall correctly, they also passed some new child porn laws in Japan in the early 00s. (This is to what I was referring.) And that's probably also why there was never a game like Eien to Natta Rusuban again. The game is pretty much a child abusing torturing simulator and the protagonist is the most evil bastard one can think of. He's not even remotely comparable with the watered-down Lolicon protagonists we have today. Starting with 2004, there were never again non-doujin eroge with this kind of pure evil main characters.

55 minutes ago, Funnerific said:

A game is a nukige when whatever story there is exists only to support the sexual content and can't have more plot than any moege.

If the sexual content wants to be more than just a fetish, it needs a good story or it doesn't really stimulate the reader. For example; NTR needs a good story and good characters, even if it's just a nukige. And I'm pretty sure the characters and the relationship in these nukige are far more developed than in a moege.

[Funnerific]

1 hour ago, Tyrosyn said:

It wasn't actually an eroge law. There was a ban on Eien to Natta Rusuban  which was the first time an eroge was prohibited since Saori if I recall correctly. It wasn't actually a big matter, they could sell the game again after they modified a character description in the booklet (booklet stated the main character is 12 and they just revised the age to unknown). But this incident kinda left a mark and developer got more careful about these matters. Nobody wanted a second Saori-incident where people actually got into jail because they went to far with this game.

Some years later the Rapelay incidence happened and well, the rest we all know. Today the law is much stricter than it was before thanks to the new Loli laws from year before last.
If I recall correctly, they also passed some new child porn laws in Japan in the early 00s. (This is to what I was referring.) And that's probably also why there was never a game like Eien to Natta Rusuban again. The game is pretty much a child abusing torturing simulator and the protagonist is the most evil bastard one can think of. He's not even remotely comparable with the watered-down Lolicon protagonists we have today. Starting with 2004, there were never again non-doujin eroge with this kind of pure evil main characters.

Excuse me, weren't we talking about anti-hero protagonists? What you're describing is outright villainy and a different topic entirely. Also all of these regulations are about loli characters, placing no limitations on games with more or less grown-up looking girls.

[Tyr]

1 hour ago, Funnerific said:

Excuse me, weren't we talking about anti-hero protagonists? What you're describing is outright villainy and a different topic entirely. Also all of these regulations are about loli characters, placing no limitations on games with more or less grown-up looking girls.

Uhm, I was talking about how there was a trend that eroge protagonists were getting more evil until that stopped around 2004. Which I did in order to show you that there is a relevant amount of eroge with evil protagonists (which is part of the thread title) and what you denied initially.
Anti-hero protagonists were always present in eroge. Just the kind of anti-hero changed over the years.

[Funnerific]

20 minutes ago, Tyrosyn said:

Just the kind of anti-hero changed over the years.

Which brings me back to my original point, that being the fact that in 21th century eroge

On 01.03.2016 at 7:45 AM, Funnerific said:

Most of the protagonists presented as "anti-heroes" will almost certainly break their character soon enough, and not just once.

 

[XReaper]

9 hours ago, Funnerific said:

Which brings me back to my original point, that being the fact that in 21th century eroge

 

pretty much this. regrettably. words arent enough to express my disgust/ annoyance about those failed characters, whom tend to behave inconsistant to their very core. on another note, you´re better off not to expect a change happening anytime soon, not if most titles featuring such content keep on failing ultra-hard sales-wise, which also goes for recent anime in general, see parasyte´s more than abysmal sales, or those of many others, too.