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I disagree with several of these points.

 

2 and 3 seem to contradict each other.  You say H-scenes should be meaningful to the gameplay, yet ero shouldn't be a part of the gameplay.  Uh...what?

 

I don't agree that telling a solid story means that the gameplay can't stand by itself or be engaging.  Venus Blood Gaia has way too much ero, but if that were toned town it'd meet both criteria: solid storytelling and engaging gameplay with complexity.   Depending on your opinion of the gameplay / story balance in individual Eushully titles, you can argue that they manage to marry good storytelling with complex gameplay as well.  Even a mainstream title like Starcraft 2 shows that storytelling and complex gameplay can harmonize.

I think adding a section on which games you think fulfills/fails to fulfill each of these conditions would be pretty meaningful here.

I didn't say good gameplay and a story couldn't harmonize.  I said that gameplay is something that should be used to enhance the story, not as an objective in and of itself.  If you are looking for gameplay for itself, it is better to hit the conventional game market, because most VN gameplay pales in comparison to straight video games. 

 

Ones that follow those rules (more or less):

 

Venus Blood Hypno (straight-out the best in the series)

Ikusa Megami Zero (best VN/rpg I've ever played, by far)

Ikusa Megami Verita (sequel that went its own way but still didn't manage to quite get there)

Yumina (though I still thought the gameplay got in the way and made an already lame main heroine seem even more idiotic, somehow)

Corona

Soukoku no Arterial

Eien no Aselia

Seinarukana

Sunrider

Evenicle (for all its flaws)

Pastel Chime 3 (yes, another Alice Soft game... but when Alice Soft does normal console-style rpg gameplay, they have the sense not to screw things up by playing with fire)

Tenbin no La Dea (its flaws lie in the short length of its story for the price I paid, lol)

 

Examples where the gameplay and/or the H elements got in the way but it still managed to be decent despite that.

Kami no Rhapsody (gameplay is unbelievably repetitive, due to the need to play most maps multiple times both to help get the necessary objects to level characters and get useful items/medals)

Ouzoku (extremely steep learning curve, excessive need for management of funds, especially when you get higher level units)

Madou Koukaku (battles can be repetitive/ are somewhat poorly designed, lots of building-micromanagement)

Venus Blood Frontier (conquest feels repetitive and unit building is exhausting)

Venus Blood Empire (worse than above when it comes to the conquest but slightly more manageable unit construction due to fewer available units)

Venus Blood Gaia (egg-laying, high-stress dungeon defense, micromanagement of breeding plans almost made me hate it outright)

Bunny Black (dungeon-crawling is tedious, leveling and advancing in rank is too slow)

Bunny Black 2 (gameplay is less tedious than above but still gets in the way)

Genrin no Kishougun 2 (same battle system, better balance between storytelling and gameplay than the original)

 

Completely out

Bunny Black 3 (unbelievably tedious/annoying gameplay design combined with a weak plot)

Akuma Musume no Kanban Ryouri

Venus Blood Abyss (annoying dungeon defense, less refined breeding system than Gaia that is even higher-stress)

Shoujo to Maou to Tactics (though it did show moments of intelligent design, at times... the gameplay was bad enough that it didn't matter at all)

Demonion (though as a tower/dungeon defense game it beats out Venus Blood Gaia and Abyss, its plot is basically a 'rape them until they love you' story+conquest on the side)

Genrin no Kishougun (turn limit plus a watered-down Fire Emblem-style battle system... was a much better read summarized in the free download for Verita)

I honestly don't see how your criteria are any more meaningful than saying "bad gameplay makes VN-gameplay hybrids not fun".  You haven't provided useful analysis that tells us, objectively, what works and what doesn't.  All I see is you griping about what you didn't like in certain games--which is fine, but not particularly useful as an objective analysis.

 

For example, I completely disagree that Gaia's gameplay is not fun.  I don't think Ouzoku's system is as difficult as you make it out to be (especially considering I was playing it via machine translation).  I think Yumina is an example of a game where the gameplay definitely DOES get in the way sometimes.

 

Your main point seemed to be that the story and gameplay in a hybrid can't stand alone, or it won't be as good of a game as it could've been.  I disagree.  Complex gameplay is something that capable gameplay developers like Eushully, Ninetail, Softhouse Chara, and Alicesoft should definitely strive for.  They shouldn't scale back and simplify simply because some people have the idea in their head that gameplay should only complement the story.  That's simply what YOU happen to appreciate.  I think the best games will have compelling gameplay AND story, and that's what developers should be striving for.  In fact, we have a name for such a genre: RPGs.

I think gameplay and story end up having to compromise, and usually so building one to support the other is necessary. I preface with this that I'm not an experienced player of gameplay/story games, having played just IMZ and Evenicle.

 

In general, I prefer going for pure gameplay (optional story/setting built around it) and pure storytelling (no gameplay).

 

You can make both gameplay and story compelling, but the gameplay and story have to be consistent and not strain the other.

Hmm...Like when you come up with a gameplay structure which is like an armies battle game. You can't insert battles everywhere unless the plot has that. You might have to change the structure of the story to make it work with the gameplay.

 

The issue I have with gameplay is that the time during the battles don't serve the story.

You can place speech or thoughts during a battle, but they may feel a bit awkward if the player is retrying multiple times to beat the level.

You can also have plot events show up inside the battle, or influence the gameplay element. This is very nice and immersive, but requires the gameplay element be able to represent such a factor.

 

If you make the gameplay the main place where the characters express themselves, the ADV view can expand on that world atmosphere, showing the characters between battles, living life or running the campaign in their position, showing more of the world that was introduced by the gameplay (very important for the narration text to act like the gameplay events exist and happen).

 

However, if the focus and build up of the VN is in the story text, then adding gameplay regularly isn't easy. It's like reading a novel and then having to play a different video game for 10 minutes every 30 pages.

 

So, gameplay hybrids require a specific type of story in order for the gameplay and story to be able to work together well. The more "strict" the storyline is the harder it is for arbitrary gameplay to be adapted in.

good post, its hard to make long post. on in was good and enjoyed it