Lumaria

Ultimately being VN is not allowing any true diversity when it can. According to this community. You all against the idea of having more diverse, less Japanese VNs. The problem is that VNs are not by definition Japanese. They are from Japan, but nothing about it's structure says it has to be pushed Japanese culture, tropes, stereotypes. I don't know how many times I have to say it. Hut just because you personally define it as such, doesn't mean you should ignore what literally makes a VN.

Any brain dead person can play a game because games have learned to be more and more immersive and convey it's gameplay better over time. For visual novels it's game play is rather simple, but its immersion and conveyance relies solely on the story aspects but it is an extreme boost for visuals as well. Don't try to dumb down games and make visual novels as a finer form of art when you know there is satire VNs and VNs that make fun of the common stereotypes it has. With that said if difficulty is based on how long you can stay glued to the VN, then something is wrong (according to your comparison). Let me put an example that isn't a visual novel and more of a 3d graphic adventure: Life is Strange. In this game the main character saves her childhood friends life with her special rewind ability. It all leads to the end where she must choose the lives of everyone else vs the friend she's been constantly saving and bonding. The choice is difficult not because it's hard to press a button, but because the story had forced one to choose both equally important decisions with consequences. I believe VNs have that capability of having that. But that's just to explain that video games aren't bad comparison all the time and ultimately holds no ground when video games are all about game play where VNs are not. Ultimately people can play VNs for different reasons, and the reading doesn't necessarily need to be a make/break situation other factors are involved and make the experience better. Such as visuals, character development, overall story flow. Etc. I was using Ace attorney and Danganronpa as examples to how I was introduced and that not everyone. VN have the capabilities of reaching all types of gamers without compromising what makes a VN (by it's definition, not the culture of the fan base). This isn't a reaction to me not finding the VNs I want. This is me seeing a clearly versatile medium limited by it's fans and refuse to try to expand. You all keep talking about change this and change that. You all go on deaf ears when I say it's nor about changing. Fun fact: nearly everything in the top 10 would have outranked 2014’s first-place ranking title! So we got nukiges, BL, utsuges, moe, horror/suspense and psychological terror/torture here on the top 10 list. Yes it is still games which is influenced and made by the Japanese. But that's why we love it too. Sekai founded Clannad, Grisaia and Muv Luv last year. That's nearly 1 million dollars from the community. We are also founding a lot smaller projects (WAS) and unknown companies (Mikandi Japan) which did a successfull campaign just a few days ago. Yes I know KS is a risk and the community may not have that amount of dedication later on. But I think it is in a good state at the moment. It doesn't have to be the biggest thing. It is more important that it evolve and keeping up with the evolving market. Which a lot of other things can't manage. JAST, MG, Sekai and other companies made a lot of new contracts and large announcements during last year about games and partners. What's so bad about a smaller hobby or interest? I don't see anything negative. What I can see everything seems fine and the market is evolving. If we turn the question around. Do you think the Japanese market would survive if they suddenly changed the style to more western influenced artstyle? No. I think the VN market would die pretty soon. I don't think west is ready for a "westernization" of the VN market. The biggest thing for VNs the past year is Steam. Clannad made a successfull Steam release. According to Steamspy 12 000 people own the game. Yes that's not a big amount. All credit to Clannad but the artstyle isn't that appealing if you don't know the medium. Remember the fan TL of the game could be a big hindrance for the sales and a lot of people already bought it from the Kickstarter. It all comes down to personal preferences. I like the anime style which Japanese use when creating games. I like JRPGs and other games on Playstation from Japan. I don't think you can make these games in a western artstyle and get away with it. Personally I would't be interested in the games. That's my opinion even though I am a gamer in my heart. I often feel people don't think twice when they answer. I've consistently given the same answer. But you all give different answers that eventually don't contradict what I'm saying. look carefully at the top 10 VNs and tell me you dont see what i see. it's not about Japanese. But it's targeting more toward one specific audience. Look i used to love japanese culture as much as the next otaku. But I learned one thing, all cultures have their ups and Downs, and all cultures deserve to be praised and condemned at times for their idealogy (remember I included praise). But it became saturated. Visual novels by definition dont need to be japanese. WIth the seed and maybe other super rare gems of non japanese visual novels out there. There's absolutely nothing about VNs that actually make it better because it relies on Japanese tropes. Its so sad, some people are blind. honestly there's this mental block VN community has. Where they ultimately just say they like it. I get it, I'm not here to change what you personally enjoy, but to help achieve what the communities slogan is. Not by using the culture of VN established by fans but rather the structure and mechanics and what a VN relies on in order to be a VN. I've played 3 that claimed to be VNs or VN elements. So with what I experienced and researching on what made a VN, I've played An additional 3 more until I found there was a huge transition phase in every game. And I've been testing out a lot of VNs but I noticed more and more of the same stereotypes with no diversity. Same VN, different shade, especially with fan made ones. Not that it matters though. I'm jot here to change VNs but to change the misconception of VNs.

I normally don't like reading heavily. What got me into VNs? Ace attorney. But nothing was remotely close to what Ace Attorney provided. More importantly danganronpa was another game which wasn't that much of a VN but those we're the gateway to VNs for me. In the end though they we're games barely considered as VNs. So I know from experience that there is some VNs people will be interested in and some who don't. But are the great hidden gems are out there in the forefront? No they are in the sea of mediocre comical or satire VNs with a large group of Otome and dating sim style VNs. The is me looking for one in the app store and found literally dozens of the same kind. Mario kart was a fun game for a lot of people but not everyone who plays Mario kart plays grand turismo. Its not like previous released VNs like Clannad and fate stay/night will be revised because of popular demand in the west. and it's not like previous VN developers will stop making the VNs you love. All it does is open up an area where VNs had potential market all along. But I want to destroy the idea that VNs have to be Japanese inspired in order to be VN. That they have to have the same otome or harem or typical genres we see in VNs a lot. Honestly this thinking is selfish. People should try new ways to make VNs even if they aren't your preferred taste. The current style of VNs are in no real danger. But if people can see new genres and new ideas and new ways to make VN and still be a VN, then why say "I prefer a niche market". There is absolutely no benefit other than feeding the entitled ideology. Because VNs are small it's in danger if it we're ever to try something new.

Enough to break the stereotypes? Most that do still targeted toward the stereotypes. Like hatoful boyfriend which is one big sarcastic VN. Why didn't you say that before? I feel like people starting to put their thinking caps on and maybe don't see anything wrong. but no one answers the damn question. Is what I'm proposing fundamentally changing everything that makes a VN a VN or is it only changing the culture behind it? People say the problem is how and what VNs are. Which VNs are basically a genre in video games. They are interactive, branching story lines, and provided with player choice with visuals such as characters and backgrounds. That is a VN in a nutshell. I have not proposed anything that changes that. What people don't want to admit is that it's the culture of VNs and try to justify it by making one believe that the culture of VN and what physically makes a VN are the same thing.

The Seed is a great example of diverse Visual Novel. It actually looks better in video than in concept art. But if you welcome diversity why gang up in the beginning? Why so against it? I'm hear to change perspective, not tastes. That means otome games bishonen bishojo harem, school days games can still exist. But I think they can Co exist. Because I believe there are VN fans out here and don't Even know they are because the barrier is having almost exclusive Japanese art style with genres. Look at appstore and see if you can find a unique VN not about romance or harems? look at siliconera where VNs just don't stick out. If we gear for more universal tastes. People can become fans. I think many of reasons why certain Kick starter campaigned become successful is because they want to create something that should've existed by now but hasn't. The Seed may not have that slogan, but there are plenty of visual novel making software out there. Start off as a hobby, post it in these kind of communities, create the market before it's even there, and when you aim for profit you will be fine. Also look into Google play store and Apple App store. very realistic places to start because. Just informing people on what VNs are now and how they can be better (even if they never had interests of VNs before) will be mildly interested in the sales pitch.

And that's unfortunate. There is a metaphorical gateway that people have to cross ad they have to like it before they can try. But VNs don't have to be too enclosed into one culture. Nothing bout VN says they have to be primarily Japanese. examples this culture is what fans created, that doesn't mean new cultures within the VN medium can't exist. There is a clear opportunity to do something realistic and achievable but the community doesn't fully accept it because it not only challenges our tastes but our views. No one answers the grittier questions that I been asking. what about my analysis actually hinders VN ? Where in my comment does it ruin VNs?

Im not twisting anything. your first comment: you don't want VNs to change because you like them the way they are. Your second comment which was a response as "why so defensive over different types of VN": you essentially said you liked them the way they are and it defeats the purpose of making VN more popular if they don't fit the style they have now. Your third comment which was a response to "so VNs should ony fit your tastes". You said you didn't. You accuse me being dead set of changing what makes a VN a VN which the only point you have is artstyle. You never bring up a point as to what I proposed contradicts what makes a VN. You not once defined VN. But you constantly say "I'm changing VNs" I get defensive because you say what im proposing is essentially changing what makes a VN. Which to me is ignorance. VN is defined by their structure, not their art style. So long as they have text, dialogue, branching stories, and options for the player to choose from, you don't have to worry about what makes a VN. Everything I proposed has to do with VN. I dare say that it wants to focus on what really makes a VN. The problem is that you can't distinguish between what makes a VN by definition over what makes VN popular among the niche community. To you Japanese art style in VN is what makes a VN. THAT IS IGNORANCE. And I feel sorry for anyone who believes that VNs can't have diversity.

No. You did say it. You might have not thought it through. But you definitely said it. You see, what you are confusing is the culture of VNs vs what essentially makes a VN. If bringing VNs to the west and making them more popular needs to come with the otaku-japanophile culture, then you don't truly want VNs to be popular in the west. You like the idea, but you don't want it.

So should VNs be only targetted to your tastes because that's what you define as a VN despite not actually being the major definition of a VN?

Yes, VNs absolutely need a larger more diverse user base. I fully 100% believe that. I see a community so hard wired into what they like, they are willing to kick out or push away anything that is different because they are threatened by an idea that is very promising. They don't even give any real feedback as to why this would be bad. But here's a misconception: not here to change what a VN. You just think that's what makes a VN. When it doesn't. You may like VNs for what they are now but by definition, a VN has potential to be more. And it's sad... I agree...visual novels have the potential to express unique story, characters, and stressful decision making that generally makes the genre entertaining. But there is a bigger underlying issue. The fact that we call them OELVNs in similar style of OEL manga. Its just not the same. I think reading isn't a problem. players especially in RPG read all the time. But I agree, visual novels will always be a small market. But I don't think it should be dominated by just one culture. Its not about making it mainstream. The way VNs are designed, they will always be minority. But, at the moment it is a controlled culture. People don't play a VN for what defines a VN. They play for everything a VN isn't (by definition). Why are you all so threatened by the idea of having different types of VN or more importantly VNs that fit the definition far better than the games you call a VN? I get it, you like the VNs you play. But I've never seen a community so determined NOT to innovate.

I think i have a really good way visual novels can be really popular in the west. and I mean immediately popular. My thoughts will be posted as I think, so I will organize my thoughts. And I believe it needs to be addressed sooner than people realize. Right now, visual novels have a huge stigma. Most of them I fully agree. #1) they are too anime and manga like. #2) they focus on romance or harems. #3) less interactive and too many tropes. #4) boring characters/story. Personally all these point to one thing: visual novels are far far too enclosed in a specific culture. I know there are plenty of games. VNs referred to otome and bishounen and even bishoujo. Look up visual novels in the play/app store and you don't find many VNs that are particularly unique. And just how I believe visual novels have one distinct problem that branches out to minor problems, I believe visual novels can be solved with just one idea that can solve all the others. Answer: make visual novels meant for people who don't play visual novels. Even games like Hatoful boyfriend and danganropa who try to mix up the VN genre, they are still designed for people who play VNs. Visual novels don't have to resemble anime/manga. To appeal to Westerners I believe they need to walk into the idea of visual novels and not the idea of visual novels the fans already implanted. here is me oversimplifying visual novels: visual and novel. A visual novel is essentially a story that is presented visually and provides choices for the player. So visual novels has to be visually appealing and feel like a really great novel in order to be successful. Like I said, It doesn't have to resemble anime/manga. it doesn't have to follow the tropes or such as otome, or bishounen/bishoujou. Remember, visual novels do get judged by their cover. There is one thing that visual novels have continuously done that makes it harder to get into, especially for the west. They are simply not approachable.they don't appeal to the every day person (key note, person, not gamer, or anime fan). So how do they become more approachable? First, artstyle. Not every one enjoys the anime manga art style as much as the others. It actually detracts in some cases. When you see a character revealing Their most inner thoughts to the player but the story doesn't mesh well with the story. Here is where more universal (yet well drawn) artstyle benefits everyone. Second, and probably most importantly, characters. I noticed something with visual novels. They start off heavily slow. I rarely played visual novel that immediately grabbed my interest. it was always a gamble. Most likely because most people use the beginning for exposition. It becomes a tutorial.And I have to wait for the good part. Visual novels especially need to have some character development. Something that implants players "I want to get to know who this character is". when do you personally feel so invested in a character immediately? and lastly, visual novels story needs to be engaging. Especially since it relies on player choice. What they say, where they walked, and who they trust. I've played visual novels that don't have strong options. I ultimately see one or two options that are really worked well but the last ones are there as a joke. I also see only one really great ending and the optional endings aren't that strong. Here are some ideas that I have that could be great visual novels: idea 1) A woman is framed for murder. She runs away but wants to find who the person framed her. She has to trust the right people, be in the right places and find the right evidence. Romance exist but is ultimately secondary. if push comes to shove she also has to kill/hurt the right people in order to survive. (Very reminiscent of Phoenix Wright Attorney at Law, but with a more hands on approach. idea 2) A young wo/man has to decide what his extra curriculars are in the beginning of the school year. Before deciding, s/he meets specific people who entice the player. Choosing the extra curricular will define the story with it's own unique problems, drama, and even how you meet characters and completely different goals. (This one sounds completely typical but with a full western approach can probably gain a distinct following) Idea #3) anything resembling Donnie Darko where a mysterious force follows and feeds clues and also gives you the freedom to find your own answer. (This builds mystery and enticing players to look for answers.) But how to realistically make VNs more popular in the west in the immediate future? Actively make a campaign about it. Openly tell everyone you are making a VN that is meant for them. But not just any campaigns, an organized one and look for feedback, those who don't want to play visual novels. You'd be surprised how people want to play VNs, just not the VNs out there.

The servers are down for now. Its all of createaforum.com, try probably tomorrow if you are curious.

Hi. I'm from mangamavericks.createaforum.com (a site dedicated to work on making manga). I particularly noticed the slogan "make visual novels popular in the west" and it really sparked my interest. I'm very interested in that goal and have some ideas on that.