Umineko No Naku Koro Ni Goat Headquarters [SPOILERS!]

[Funyarinpa]

This thread is for people who have completed all eight episodes of Umineko, and want to discuss the VN afterwards. Feel free to ask about the twilights, a particular scene or opinions about a character, anything you want to! Discussion is encouraged rather than directly looking up the answer from Wikia and posting it here. Preferably, post here if you do not know the answers yourself for sure and want to discover the truth with the community!

 

 

Guidelines

Do not write anything you did not come up with, unless it is related to the official solution.

You may reference the manga, anime and the red truth.

You may ask about anything in the Episodes 1-8, including Tea Parties and ???s.

Your posts should encourage discussion.

You may freely write untagged spoilers for EP1-8, all Tea Parties and ???s, and the official explanation.

 

The reason this is spoilery is because finishing the VN reveals a lot of stuff that would change your interpretation of the previous episodes. So do not cry "BUUUUUUUUUUUT HOW DID KANON DO THAT TWO ROOM TRIIIIIIIIIIIICK" before you complete the VN.

 

*****We will consider Ryukishi07's explanation regarding the culprit as canon (pun not intended), which is... (IIRC)

 

Are you sure you want to learn The Truth Of Umineko?

[kyrt]

don't get me started on all the possible theories I have for this game. Warning anything I post will have massive spoilers and theories about the game...below is one theory I have about the culprit...do not read unless you've finished the game (edit: all 8 or more of them).

 

Easily explained when you come to the ultimate realization that Shannon is an eunuch which explains why she can change her form so easily, her breasts are fake. The evidence is scattered throughout the games but are primarily explained in game 7. It explains why Shannon is so tormented. She can't have kids with George because she doesn't have the capability to produce children and he constantly is mentioning about starting a family which drives her mad, she also seems to like Jessica likely because she is male originally and this explains the whole relationship between Kanon and Jessica. You also have some details wrong about the first game. It is the doctor that checks Shannon's body and gets confirmation that it is Shannon from Kanon...so in that game at least it seems the doctor is working with Shannon. It could have been a different corpse dressed up like Shannon or might not have even been a person to begin with. The servants are likely in on the murders with Shannon...the only exception of this is likely Gohda who was recently hired. The doctor Nanajo(?), Genji, and the older lady are all working with her.

[Silvz]

So, are we going to discuss all scenarios? That's great, because even with the official explanation I didn't get every solution :/

[Wonderfullyevil]

I have to reread Umineko to make sure I get the details right when asking or answering, so til then.

[Vemocleus]

You know, I've always wanted to go back and try to solve the 'how' of each of the murders, using official solution...

I know that having the solution spelled out wasn't exactly the 'point' the game was trying to make, but I still sure do wish it was spelled out at the end, even if it didn't revisit every murder.

 

Also, in response to the prompt, how do we know that there is no one who could pass for Shannon on the island, with face smashed in?

[Funyarinpa]

Only HALF her face was smashed, and the remainder was confirmed by Hideyoshi to be Shannon's face.

[Decay]

Hideyoshi was an accomplice. So was Eva. They were lured in by the prospect of the island's gold by Sayo.

[Vemocleus]

Hmm, I'm gonna have to start rereading for this, aren't I?

[Funyarinpa]

Hideyoshi was an accomplice. So was Eva. They were lured in by the prospect of the island's gold by Sayo.

Your basis for this?

[Kelebek1]

 

 

 

 

Enjoy all >9 hours of that.

[Wonderfullyevil]

Huge vids~

Enjoy all 9 hours of that.

I'm not exactly a hater of Rosatrice, but rules are rules.

Do not write anything you did not come up with, unless it is related to the official solution.

Also, this is a DISCUSSION, not a PRESENTATION. At the very least attempt to solve the current problem at hand with your own words and go with the flow of the topic.

As for the basis of the presented argument, there were several moments in which Eva herself was hinting that the culprit is her. Eva and Hideyoshi's motive has also been presented from the first dinner; it being a need for big, fast money. Another thing worth mentioning is the suspicious placement of Shannon's "corpse". She got into a corner where it's hard to notice her. If she was dragged there as a corpse, then there is no need for the culprit to leave her there. If she was dragged there as a person, then why go to that corner? The fact that ONLY Hideyoshi confirmed the death is suspicious as well.

[Funyarinpa]

It does seem that Hideyoshi being a culprit or an accomplice is the only way out of this.

 

I should watch those videos sometime, I am pretty sure they are to Rosatrice what The Communist Manifesto is to, well, communism.

[Kelebek1]

I'm not exactly a hater of Rosatrice, but rules are rules.

Also, this is a DISCUSSION, not a PRESENTATION. At the very least attempt to solve the current problem at hand with your own words and go with the flow of the topic.

 

But it is related, the whole thing is about disproving the official solution, so I figured that's relevant to this thread discussing the official solution. A lot of things talked about in there I'm sure would come up in this thread, and things brought up in those videos can be used as points of discussion.

[Funyarinpa]

But it is related, the whole thing is about disproving the official solution, so I figured that's relevant to this thread discussing the official solution. A lot of things talked about in there I'm sure would come up in this thread, and things brought up in those videos can be used as points of discussion.

 

Could you please state the points you want to discuss then? I am down for any Umineko discussion, but posting 9 hours' 9 persons' 9 doors worth of videos is not very effective and too broad. 

[Wonderfullyevil]

It does seem that Hideyoshi being a culprit or an accomplice is the only way out of this.

I should watch those videos sometime, I am pretty sure they are to Rosatrice what;The Communist Manifesto is to, well, communism.

I should too, but I prefer text.

But it is related, the whole thing is about disproving the official solution, so I figured that's relevant to this thread discussing the official solution. A lot of things talked about in there I'm sure would come up in this thread, and things brought up in those videos can be used as points of discussion.

Hmm, fair enough. But at least highlight on how the Rosa + George combo can create the First Game, First Twilight. Presenting it all as a video crammed with several pieces of other info is a bit... Ah well, that may just be me complaining.

Edit: ninja'd

I'll post something on First Game, Second Twilight afterwards.

[Vemocleus]

Oh God, please no!  Not the 9+ hour video against the official solution!  I watched about 2 hours of that a couple years ago before I had more than enough of it.  There were a couple interesting points brought up in it, but as it got further along it just seemed like more and more rubbish.  I'm not going to dig into that one right now, but UGH.

 

UGH I say!

[Getsuya]

I watched those videos up to the point where he dismissed the Ange reality as being unrelated to the 'real' plot, which instantly shows that the guy has no idea what he is talking about. I think it's very important to bring this up in this thread before we get too far down the rabbit hole:

 

None of the murders actually happened. 1&2 were just murder-mystery games written by Shannon to play with Battler and later picked up after the tragedy in the REAL world which is the one where Ange gets adopted by Eva. The tabloids took bits and pieces of the lore from the mystery games Shannon wrote and twisted them into the tabloid-story that was #3 about how Eva went evil and killed everyone with magic. Everything after that is just red-herring BS to try to force Ange to doubt her family. It represents the efforts by the media to tear apart the Ushiromiyas and expose all their 'dark secrets' to make sure no one can ever think good things of the family again. It pushes the focus more and more toward the mysteries and away from the original intent of the story. This is symbolized by control of the games being seized by wicked witches who just want to wallow in the sorrow of others. In the 8th game Battler finally retakes control and makes one last effort to show everyone (but mainly Ange) the real point of the whole series.

 

The whole point of Umineko is to show the struggle in Ange. She has been raised hearing horrible rumors about her family, to the point where she has forgotten completely how kind they used to be. Throughout each game we are shown flashes of the true character of the Ushiromiya family, but the focus is always turned back to the murder mysteries and all that positive character development is pushed out of the spotlight. From the very first game, over and over, the clue 'without love it cannot be seen' is given, warning players that coldly looking at this family's tragedy as nothing but a murder mystery to be solved with logic will cause you to lose sight of the true purpose of the story.

 

Magic, in the game, becomes a metaphor for Ange's belief in her own family. It's something she has no proof of, something that everyone around her will doubt and poison, but something that can become true for her as long as she believes in it. Maria, through her journal, guides Ange in this path. How? By contrasting Maria's journal with the things she has heard about Rosa being abusive and hateful toward her child, Ange sees that Maria chooses to (mostly) ignore the bad and believe in the good in her mother. The 'bad witch' that takes over her mother could be said to be stress, circumstances, or other things. Maria does not allow outside influences to break the 'magical' image she has of her mother being kind and loving. Without love, and the magic of believing in your family, she would be unable to see past the mean moods Rosa sometimes has.

 

In the same way Ange is constantly given evidence that her family was full of horrible people, greedy and scheming. She is given reason to suspect some of them are murderers who would choose to kill each other over some gold. No one in the world (after Eva dies) knows the truth of the situation, thus making the truth of Ange's family a Schrodinger's Cat situation. Should she believe the circumstantial evidence people show her and everything told her by the tabloids, and even the nasty personality Eva had toward her? Or should she believe in her family as good people, worth her love and fond memories? The latter may as well be 'magic' in this world, because she will never be able to prove it and it will never have an effect that the people in the uncaring world will see. But the 'magic', if she can find the strength and love to believe in it, will give Ange strength to overcome the world that is trying to chain her down.

 

And so the final choice given to Ange, metaphorically, is: Do you choose to believe, even if evidence is given you showing you otherwise, that your family was full of good, loving people?

It's a tough choice, especially because in the metaphoric example Ange can literally see a different reality right before her eyes. But with love and strength and belief she can ignore the reality that the world is trying to force on her and use the magic of belief to love her family and move on. She then uses that 'magic' to create a series of beloved children's stories which 'purifies' the cursed Ushiromiya name. No longer will people associate 'Ushiromiya' with murder and black magic, but rather with uplifting stories beloved by millions of children. She essentially saves her family from the dark hell of doubt and derision that the world had thrust them into.

 

In Umineko Ryuukishi07 created the greatest red herring the mystery genre has ever seen; he made the ENTIRE MYSTERY a red herring. It was only there to distract people from solving the question; what kind of people were the Ushiromiyas. Were they a family Ange could believe in? Or not?

 

And thus the hint from the very first game gives us the answer, once we know the question. 'Without love, it cannot be seen'.

 

[Funyarinpa]

I won't bother quoting that (on mobile), but holy fucking shit. HOLY. FUCKING. SHIT.

Though I want to know if there is any significance to Furudo Erika.

Also, how exactly does Battler take control in EP8? I mean, his personality is dead. Any significance to Battler being the EP6 Game Master?

This is a Banquet of thought.

[Getsuya]

Actually Erika is one of the most crucial warning signs that solving the mystery is the wrong path to take. During her story she literally takes Battler's harmless family game and FORCEFULLY turns it into a murder mystery. She represents people who couldn't care less about the Ushiromiyas and just want a good gory mystery to solve and won't allow the story to go any other way. You'll notice when Battler takes over from Beatrice he focuses most of his attention on his relationship with her. Though he doesn't tell anyone, he has remembered the games he used to play with Shannon and so the game becomes a sign that he has remembered the love he and Shannon once shared. He's shown in those chapters as kind of mellow and subdued but also supportive of Beatrice, trying to get her back into the game. He realizes that Shannon has been damaged by the emotional conflict between her love for him that was forgotten, her love for George and her love for Jessica. That's why Battler has kind of a grim cast to him when he takes over the game for her. He wants to fulfill her wish of playing the game with him, but he also realizes that it's too late and he can't give all that lost time back to her.

 

So most of the later games are for the benefit of the player, rather than Ange. Most of Ange's clues happen in the 8th game, but before that Ryuukishi, through Battler, throws clues to the audience about the true intent of the games. Battler fights to try to keep the mysteries light-hearted and full of positive stuff for his family, but Bernkastel refuses to allow it, she makes it so it HAS to be about the murders. She strips away the magic of love and tries to show everyone how awful the Ushiromiyas are. But, while it's true that they had their moments when stress and greed got to them, they were mostly good people. Battler tries to defend them but Bernkastel tears away his defenses, throwing out proof after proof of them being bad people.

 

Another big proof that the mystery wasn't the point was the goats in the later games. They represented the fan community on the internet. People who came up with absolutely heartless theories (such as Battler and his parents teaming up to kill everyone) that, while they fit the mystery, ignored any pity for the Ushiromiyas.

 

So Erika was basically people saying 'This isn't about the Ushiromiya family it's about the MURDERS and the LIES and the SECRETS and we're going to reveal them all so the whole world will know'

 

Every character was written with good points but also lots of flaws so even the readers would be pulled into thinking of only the bad sides to each Ushiromiya, just like Ange reading the tabloids and media after the fact. Battler tried his best to guide us, and later his little sister, back to the truth: that the Ushiromiyas may have had their faults, but they weren't really bad people and they certainly weren't murderers.

 

Edit: Here's a bit from the 8th game that's the proof for everything I said in my first post:

 

 

It's been a while since I actually played the games so I wasn't 100% sure I was remembering all the details right, but yeah the majority of what I said is backed up in the game.

[Wonderfullyevil]

10/10 Getsuya, made me tear up.

But we're goats too, right?

First Game, Second Twilight:

The victims are Eva and Hideyoshi. Following the train of thought presented wherein the two are accomplices or culprits; why would the culprit kill them both? Another thing of note is that the door was chained when the corpses were found. As such it could be called a closed room.

Also, what would you say Ikuko, Featherine, Dlanor, and Will represent in the grand scheme of things?

[Getsuya]

Ikuko and Featherine are on the side of 'the mystery is the point'. They both only really care about reading/creating a good mystery story. Remember that Featherine brings Ange in to be her 'reader'... well in the real world Featherine is Ikuko who writes murder mystery novels based on Rokkenjima. So Ange reads the book in the real world and that's just another thing on the pile of things that make her doubt her family and believe in the murder mystery version.

 

Throughout the game you are told multiple times that it is a conflict of 'magic vs. mystery', and this is true. However, remember that 'magic' is a metaphor for Ange's love for her family (because if magic is used the family members would not be murderers, thus believing in magic is believing that the family is innocent) so in other words the split is actually 'Love for the Ushiromiyas vs. Murder Mystery'. Dlanor, Erika, the mystery-solving goats, are all pieces on the 'mystery' side to try and prove that the murders really happened.

 

Will starts on the mystery side but he is another huge warning sign for readers. He can easily pierce through the mystery and find the culprits, but he catches on quickly that there is no 'heart' behind this mystery (because it's made up trash trying to destroy the Ushiromiya name), thus he ends up defending the Ushiromiyas instead of siding with the mystery folks.

 

Edit: One thing about Dlanor is that she also ends up sort of sympathizing for Battler. I'm not sure but this could represent the fact that she realizes these are not 'true' mysteries and therefore she is not obliged to follow through with all of Erika's commands.

[Kelebek1]

Main problem with that Getsuya, is that Ryuukishi is simply not that kind of writer. Look at all his other works, and see that he doesn't write stories like that. But more than that, you're just ignoring ALL the red texts; the absolute truths of the story. So the rules of the story themselves are just lies, and the red text isn't what actually happened? There wasn't even a bomb at all? Again, I don't think Ryuukishi would make nearly the entire story pointless like that.

[Funyarinpa]

If Will is on the Ushiromiya side, then why does he execute Yasu in EP7? Is it something of a mercy kill?

[Getsuya]

Main problem with that Getsuya, is that Ryuukishi is simply not that kind of writer. Look at all his other works, and see that he doesn't write stories like that.

You mean stories where most of the plot up to a certain point is a huge red herring to distract the reader from the actual question in the plot, followed by an ending that is a lot more upbeat and hopeful than anything the series has had up to that point, including love and friendship allowing the characters to break out of a cycle of doubt and their belief in each other leading them to a bright future?

 

... so he didn't write Higurashi? And no the red text doesn't matter. It's only used for solving the mysteries and the mysteries will never lead you to the real point of the game.

 

 

If Will is on the Ushiromiya side, then why does he execute Yasu in EP7? Is it something of a mercy kill?

 

That is exactly what it is.

[Funyarinpa]

I feel stupid. Ugh.