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Lewycool

Fuwa? What happened?

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Lewy wants old Fuwa I don't. 

 

Tay asked Lewy to expand on a point he made, he expanded on that point through me. Others then butted into the conversation. To be perfectly frank HSM, it's all of you which have hijacked the thread. It was a post aimed at Tay, as Tay's was aimed at Lewy.

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Ok then first off u shouldn't have mentioned sexism since it is clearly not your point here. I do know the three hidden/closed posts and if u want I can even say their names which for some reason seems to be a taboo in the discussion. You here are just getting off topic.

I suggest dropping all the ongoing conversations here and if u have a problem, come outright and say it. Do you want old fuwa? This is the same as old fuwa except for the small things I mentioned. Do you want there to be a rule that anything thay harms morals aka is offensive shouldn't be posted? Then the mods said they will resolve this. Finally do you want the pointless threads to vanish? Then just ask tay to remove the coc since yeah if u haven't already guessed it, this is a board for pointledd threads.

I agree with babi, this should be locked since we are going nowhere.

Very fair point. The coc was made to be pointless. That's why there isnt a need for all seriousness that nosebleed is now introducing. I mean, old fuwa had the Majikoi translation project aka unlimited chat works. Why didn't anyone remove that? WHY hunt down threads now?

~~

Well, if lewy gets his opinions out, no one else can just because we are newer members than him?

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And I guess that should end every discussion here right now. Heck on every topic that was mentioned here, everyone said and made his opinion

Tay will resolve this with Lewy hopefully. Again zi suggest locking the thread.And I didn't mean to butt in or hijack this thread, all I wanted is to end these pointless continuous posts by all members about sexism. And if doing that was wrong, I sincerely apologize.

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You did nothing wrong/worth apologising for. I did warn people a few days ago that I injured my back and was sore and grumpy. Eh, this can be merry little present for Tay, I think I heard him mentioning the other day that he didn't have nearly enough clean-up work to do and would dearly like some more.

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Honestly. this is the first time I've seen people speak up about sexism/racism. I don't know whether people have been voicing their concerns through PMs, but publicly this is a first I personally see (or maybe I just don't lurk enough). If people have been having problems with some of the users content, the issue should have been brought up, the 2nd or 3rd time it occurs, and should have been dealt with.

 

To make this place better regarding sexism, I urge females to voice out any concerns the moment they see it. You can pm a friend/admin, etc, but make sure your voices are heard. In general, I think it might be a good idea to have a feedback admin (or system), someone who takes in all claims of inappropriate content and reports them to the rest of the mods.

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To make this place better regarding sexism, I urge females to voice out any concerns the moment they see it. You can pm a friend/admin, etc, but make sure your voices are heard. In general, I think it might be a good idea to have a feedback admin (or system), someone who takes in all claims of inappropriate content and reports them to the rest of the mods.

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Oh god... you guys are STILL arguing? xD

 

You know.. I was typing up a response to everything you guys are saying... but I said "fuck that" because nobody is willing to listen to anyone here, and this thread is just going to continue with no actual understanding between people. One of the basic rules of a rational discussion is that all parties involved have to realize that they are fallible... and clearly nobody thinks that here.

 

Then again, this is the internet.. so it is a little too much to expect for people to ever have a proper debate over anything. :holo:

That is why you get discussions like this, where people just say the same things over and over again making no progress whatsoever.

 

 

Somebody... please... just make a group PM for all the people that are ACTUALLY involved.

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Thank God for this thread.

 

I want to address the issue of sexism, but my arguments apply to the other discrimination issues too and mods in general.

 

I'd like to thank suikashoujo for her contribution to the thread, highlighting that if anyone has the prerrogative to say anything on the matter, it's her. It's good to know she has never been personally offended by things people have said. I don't like it when people get personally offended. However, miss, I must say your attitude tells more about you than about the forums.

 

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate your upfront attitude and how you're always commenting on games I comment on too. It's a hurricane of fresh air, every time. But why are you a minority? Why don't we have more women in the forums?

 

It would be too easy to blame it on visual novels as a whole. Because they are sexist, because they are aimed at men in Japan or something. It's too easy to blame it on an outside force. See, I want to make visual novels. If possible, some day I want to live off games, visual novels in particular. I want to sell, I want an audience to call my own. I want diverse people in this audience not because it's somehow morally right, but simply because it means more people will be in it. When I see Fuwa isn't growing towards a particular demographic, I have to ask myself why is that-- even if most visual novels are sexist, am I not entitled to change this?

 

This is how the community is shaped, I suppose, then. People happen to be here with a common interest. I want more people to have this interest, so I must first open up to them. How can I open up if I don't discuss themes that might not have enough representatives in the forums, such as, well, sexism? It's not nice that men are talking about a problem they see regarding the problem they see with the attitude towards women in the forums - you could call it white knighting, even. Something Katawa Shoujo told us not to do, right? However, why is it that men have to start this conversation in the first place? Is it because there hasn't been disrespect or because there hasn't been anyone to be disrespected?

 

THAT SAID

 

I prefer discussions like the one in this thread than preemptive strikes by mods, locking or hiding threads. I'm not going as far as calling Fuwa a dictatorship - people take the term "dictatorship" way too lightly -, but I want this issue to be discussed. I want people to speak up if something bothers them. I want members to be free to make jokes, however terrible they may be, and I want members to be free to call people out on them. If a thread like this pops up every now and again, all the better. I mean, we are talking, you know? We're interacting. This is what the forums were made for. To prevent interaction, however vicious it may seem, is to drive people away.

 

So, Kurisu-chan, sexist jokes are never okay. There's no such thing as a well used sexist joke. They shouldn't be made, ever. But I don't want a mod to ensure they won't be made. I want people to know better. They won't know better if we appeal to power.

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Timeline of the Fuwa "Sexist & Community Scandal of '15" to be entered in the Gospel of Fuwa sometime in the future.

1. Glory of Female Rears thread created -> lots of spammy comments of peoples' sexual bodily preferences of females.

2. Male Genital thread created for 'equality' -> lots of spammy comments of peoples' sexual bodily preferences of males.

3. Man or Female Boobs thread created -> lots of spammy comments of peoples' breast preferences of males & females.

 

???

 

4. Community outrage sparks at the questionable existence of these threads.

5. On the moderator side, some wanted to gank these threads ASAP, but some thought they were fine since they were in Chatter.

6. Community outrage escalates rapidly.

7. Threads ended up being locked under the basis of 'taking jokes too far'; eventually deleted.

8. Temporary Coliseum of Chatter rules drafted.

 

???

 

9. What Happened to Fuwa thread created; claims to be unrelated to be as a result of the above.

10. Apologetic videos & threads created as a result of the above

11. Discussions about old vs. new community, the state of the Leadership Council (LC), sexism.

???
 

12. Tay addresses Lewy's concerns.

13. Rooke follows up addressing Lewy's concerns.
14. Opposers call Rooke out on some of his points (ie. Forum becoming a home for all; Forum management dictatorship)

15. Rooke two man armies all of his opposition with ex-GM Think Tank Taskforce Rangers Division, Tiagofvarela.
 

???

16. And here we are on this fateful day of Fuwanovel.

 

~~

Btw y'all should read Princess Evangile :kosame:

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So , i take part of blame that this thread was created.

It was me who complained about it and it was me who said that i might aswell just leave soon. 

I know people do jokes and troll threads. 

at times there's just some threads that i dont want to see.

 

maybe i should speak up myself for content that i find disrespectful.

Just that im a person that usually dont, i complain to the friends from here instead. (poor lewy, rooke, bats that have to listen to it. )

because even if i like it or not , i dont want to bother the community with it and keep it small. 

same as it wasnt me who presented my design for the frontpage originally either. 

So its my own problem and fault for not speaking up i guess. (i suck at writing shit like this anyway)

 

My intent is not to stop people from having theyr fun.

Just that its been alot lately and i "overreact".

 

people want  different things & like different things and  im not a person to prevent them to.

my hopes is nothing of "old fuwa".

Things change by time, and fuwa and i just have been going in different directions.

i dont know what fuwa's goals for the future is. its not up to me.

 

Might been good that the topic is brought up.

just would have wished it didnt start an big argue.

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Eh lol, actually i never meant sexist jokes but dark humour joke, for me, sexist jokes falls in the same category as racist jokes, they are discriminative.

 

 

Then, it depends on how you make them. 

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So , i take part of blame that this thread was created.

It was me who complained about it and it was me who said that i might aswell just leave soon. 

I know people do jokes and troll threads. 

at times there's just some threads that i dont want to see.

 

maybe i should speak up myself for content that i find disrespectful.

Just that im a person that usually dont, i complain to the friends from here instead. (poor lewy, rooke, bats that have to listen to it. )

because even if i like it or not , i dont want to bother the community with it and keep it small. 

same as it wasnt me who presented my design for the frontpage originally either. 

So its my own problem and fault for not speaking up i guess. (i suck at writing shit like this anyway)

 

My intent is not to stop people from having theyr fun.

Just that its been alot lately and i "overreact".

 

people want  different things & like different things and  im not a person to prevent them to.

my hopes is nothing of "old fuwa".

Things change by time, and fuwa and i just have been going in different directions.

i dont know what fuwa's goals for the future is. its not up to me.

 

Might been good that the topic is brought up.

just would have wished it didnt start an big argue.

I think this speaks more to inconsistent moderation. Because of precedent, many people felt that dark humor, or sexist humor was acceptable. And, it is to an extent. I know you well enough to know that the last thing you want is to eliminate the fun. We've both taken part in these "fun" threads before. 

 

But due to inconsistencies in rule enforcement, it can be very easy to cross the line between acceptable and unacceptable, and not even realize it. I can say with confidence, that the staff is working to fix this after this thread popped up, and they seem to realize the underlying issue here. I am hoping that they will make some internal changes to better moderate the forums. 

 

Because in a perfect world, they are merely maids of the forums, and not babysitters. By setting a consistent standard for moderation, that is followed from the top down (globals to board mods), they can hopefully go back to being forum maids, cleaning up, merging, moving, and locking threads. 

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Moderator standards and rule enforcement issues aside, if you guys are ever bothered by the existence of threads and whatnot, there's always a report button!

Or PM a BM if no GMs are present (BMs can't see reports).

Yes, I would definitely encourage this.  Unfortunately, we do not posses all-seeing eyes on the forums.  So please, simply PM us if you come across something offensive, we will look into it ASAP.

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Time to get even more redundant.  Yay!

 

Please, please, please use the report button if you find something offensive or are treated in a way that you find objectionable, or PM one of us Board Mods, since like Eclipsed said, we can't see reports.  That's what we're here for.  Letting it build up and fester doesn't help anyone.

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sexist jokes are never okay. There's no such thing as a well used sexist joke. They shouldn't be made, ever. But I don't want a mod to ensure they won't be made. I want people to know better. They won't know better if we appeal to power.

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What are you serious?  Neko nyaa. Lewy. You are no fun nyaa. Expect for fuwa not having torrents anymore it feel about the same to me 

Well when your appealing to a target market that wants visual novels it makes sense to provide it. They decided that instead of appealing to that target market they wanted to make a dedicated forum with a half baked VN finding system. It's not like there was allready another website that allready provided that service and was allready well established... Oh wait... So now they are relying entirely on the community they built to substain them with no incentive for newcomers to join. Although there are other web forums that are entirely dedicated to web forums but when your motto is "Bringing visual novels to the west" it's a good idea to deliver.

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I don't know how much steam people have let out, but I feel complied to inform you all that offensive content is never okay and I don't believe any staff member stands for it. Though I will also mention unless someone tells me something is offensive to them I can't exactly figure it out by myself, so I really do encourage people to speak up and report stuff that offends them.

 

As batman mentioned, as it stands now, the staff is pretty much bound by a very specific ruling system which is both a good and a bad thing, and on top of that the staff are accostumed with a lot of similar precedent cases, leading judgement to be, I guess clouded would be the best term, as a lot of us are used to certain things that newer members perhaps are not, and that's something that really needs to be addressed by the staff.

 

I think we all can agree we need to change how moderation works quite a bit, and I have made suggestions on how to change some ways in the LC for people to comment on there, and hopefully after some discussion we'll attempt to kind of start from a blank slate and see if we can improve our ways in the future as much as we can so everyone can have a peaceful environment for their discussions.

 

As someone who's been used to this kind of thing and is hardly offended by anything, I don't let most things bother me much, but it's clear that it bothers other people, and it is my and the rest of the staff's duty to reply back to the community when something that wasn't as much of a problem becomes a prevalent problem and I'd like to tell you all that we are at this moment trying to change how things work and I think the whole staff knows exactly what they can do better so hopefully in the future we can solidify our moderation and make it better for everyone.

 

I don't intend on locking this thread, I think it was quite informative and I don't believe in censoring meaningful discussion, but I'd just like to inform everyone that we're trying to do something about the issues going on and I think we will be able to work something out soon enough. (not soon )

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So people are speaking for the entire female population of Fuwa even when they don't fall into that category now, huh?

 

When I signed up for a forum that was centered around eroge, I knew what I was getting into. I knew that I was going to be in the minority, but you know what? I didn't really care. I found a place where I could talk freely about these things, and as a result, I've never felt the need to censor my thoughts when posting here. And you know what? I have never once felt "discriminated against" or whatever else some people are calling it now. I've never felt like I've been treated differently because I'm a woman. Ever.

 

Threads about how attractive butts are may seem immature to some, but it's not offensive. There's definitely a fine line between the two, in my opinion, and I genuinely don't believe that Fuwa crosses it. Note that this is just one person in a group of many, but as part of the group involved in this particular issue, I think it's worth mentioning.

I think it's nice that you feel that way.  The only problem is that.. although you may be okay, not every other girl may be.^^;  

I'm guessing what people are actually worried about is making fuwa's atmosphere more welcoming to all girls. That will also help attract & keep more females in the fuwa community.

 

Although I think I'm pretty tolerant about things like this, especially because I feel everyone on fuwa is very friendly.. even I thought some content I've seen recently have been a bit questionable.  Not because I was personally bothered by them really, but more because I could see how it could've been offensive to girls if it were to be taken seriously.

 

I think I may be partly to blame for what happened too... since like @Emi, I did voice my concerns to some friends of mine as well. I'm also the type of person who doesn't want to stir up problems for the community but share my opinions with the few I know on fuwa... so that might have contributed to things snowballing. 

 

To Ren

I'm sorry to have brought it up again... I do feel very badly about how things turned out, and it makes me sad to see you so troubled recently. I know you always did things to help people and probably never had the intention to offend or hurt anyone. I guess to avoid future problems like this, just try to be more careful and aware of how your content can come off... it's not guaranteed that everyone will be fine with it, so may be safer to tone down a bit or avoid altogether if you don't want to offend anyone. I think talking about why you're attracted to "anime girl butts" is alright, but when it comes to mixing/comparing it with real girls even as a joke, it can get messy. 

:vinty:  Some girls may not be able to take it as a compliment, but as an insult.

 

Anyways.. I do admire your openness and bravery Ren, and I hope you feel better soon!

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I think it's nice that you feel that way. The only problem is that.. although you may be okay, not every other girl may be.^^;

I'm guessing what people are actually worried about is making fuwa's atmosphere more welcoming to all girls. That will also help attract & keep more females in the fuwa community.

Although I think I'm pretty tolerant about things like this, especially because I feel everyone on fuwa is very friendly.. even I thought some content I've seen recently have been a bit questionable. Not because I was personally bothered by them really, but more because I could see how it could've been offensive to girls if it were to be taken seriously.

I think I may be partly to blame for what happened too... since like @Emi, I did voice my concerns to some friends of mine as well. I'm also the type of person who doesn't want to stir up problems for the community but share my opinions with the few I know on fuwa... so that might have contributed to things snowballing.

To Ren

I'm sorry to have brought it up again... I do feel very badly about how things turned out, and it makes me sad to see you so troubled recently. I know you always did things to help people and probably never had the intention to offend or hurt anyone. I guess to avoid future problems like this, just try to be more careful and aware of how your content can come off... it's not guaranteed that everyone will be fine with it, so may be safer to tone down a bit or avoid altogether if you don't want to offend anyone. I think talking about why you're attracted to "anime girl butts" is alright, but when it comes to mixing/comparing it with real girls even as a joke, it can get messy.

:vinty: Some girls may not be able to take it as a compliment, but as an insult.

Anyways.. I do admire your openness and bravery Ren, and I hope you feel better soon!

No, I completely understand that I very well may be the only girl here who feels this way. I said in my post that I was just speaking for myself, after all. But I just wanted to get my thoughts out there, even if I very well may be in the minority on this issue. I'm not saying that no one should be offended if that's how they feel, but I thought it was a little unfair that people were basically saying I SHOULD be offended. That's all. ^^

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I'd like to step in from the sideline and say a few things.

It makes me really sad to see how this whole thing unfolded. Was it really necessary to call Fuwanovel a sewage full of turd?  Why wasn't this addressed in private message, instead of making a thread that was absolutely guaranteed to blow up in to a fight? Really, there was no reason why this couldn't have been handled in private between the offenders and staff. If the OPs were made aware of somebody being offended by their threads, I'm sure they would have apologized and this whole incident could have easily been avoided. The staff could have made a PSA reminding people about the rules of the forums, and how Fuwa prides itself in being a welcoming community for everyone, so it's important to think about others before posting something like that. The Fuwans would understand. Instead we have 7 pages of arguing over this supposed "sexism" that really didn't need to happen. Saying that you like butts or breasts isn't sexism, by the way. But I can absolutely understand it making people uncomfortable. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I mean, I'm not exactly comfortable talking about sexual stuff. But, looking back at this thread... I don't really see the point. A few members made mistakes. They got carried away. Threads got deleted and warnings were probably issued. It was done. Over. But the angry reaction to all of this really just did it for me. I know it sounds immature, but I was legitimately upset to the point where I just wanted to leave Fuwa (and I wasn't even involved in any way!). The most important thing to me is I really hope this incident didn't create more divides than there already are in the community, but I can't help but think it did.

I guess that's it. There's a reason why I don't normally jump in to these heated debates over forum policy and stuff. I basically try to avoid confrontation and arguing at all costs. Not to mention that writing isn't really my strong suit, so I have trouble getting my feelings into words. That's it, though. I just wanted to say a few things.

 

I know I'm late to the thread, but I was waiting for everything to slow down before I said anything.

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 Why wasn't this addressed in private message, instead of making a thread that was absolutely guaranteed to blow up in to a fight? 

 

From what I understand, complaints were made and nothing was done until community outrage reached a certain point. I think Lewy's thread was a part of that community outrage. It would be awesome if the mods were pro-active enough so that incidents like this didn't happen, BUT there are new mod guidelines in place and people are still trying to find their feet etc etc. Unfortunately I think the public outrage was necessary to remind staff that people do view certain behaviours on the forum as problematic, and to be honest this had been building for a while now. 

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