An Inevitable Pitfall?

[exsion]

After playing a couple of visual novels, I've come across a feeling of regret that stem from a couple of issues I wonder if anyone else felt.

In some cases there are visual novels that have had anime adaptations made. And while the adaptations may or may not well represent the story of the original VN, it does show enough plot and character development that makes me feel a bit "cheated" out of a brand new introduction of a well-done story.

In the case of anime, there is no choice or paths to play, and so one must take the story as it comes. And while this may detract from some freedom and creativity, it does relieve some burden of "perfectionist" types to uncover every nook of truth. Lately any VN I've become interested in playing has me looking into walkthroughs on how to get the "best" routes and scenes. It's like being told the spoilers ahead of time and yet I would hate to play a VN that spans so many hours and only get a "bad" ending that isn't the main focus of the story.

Given the situation of these dynamics, am I fretting too much?

[Eldin]

save early, save often. i save at every choice presented so i can backtrack and change the story as i want/need to, or to skip stuff that i've already seen a dozen times. (i almost always skip to the first choice when starting a new route, as some games have upwards of an hour of reading before you get to do much of anything.)

if you're absolutely terrified or too ocd that you may miss a scene or cg if you play a certain way and require a guide to get everything, try and find one that only tells which options to take and doesn't spoil the story for you.

[Wahfuu]

After playing a couple of visual novels, I've come across a feeling of regret that stem from a couple of issues I wonder if anyone else felt.

In some cases there are visual novels that have had anime adaptations made. And while the adaptations may or may not well represent the story of the original VN, it does show enough plot and character development that makes me feel a bit "cheated" out of a brand new introduction of a well-done story.

In the case of anime, there is no choice or paths to play, and so one must take the story as it comes. And while this may detract from some freedom and creativity, it does relieve some burden of "perfectionist" types to uncover every nook of truth. Lately any VN I've become interested in playing has me looking into walkthroughs on how to get the "best" routes and scenes. It's like being told the spoilers ahead of time and yet I would hate to play a VN that spans so many hours and only get a "bad" ending that isn't the main focus of the story.

Given the situation of these dynamics, am I fretting too much?

Use common sense/think about choices as they come up. Save a lot. And even some bad endings are worth seeing.

I can't say I understand the problem having never experienced it myself.

[Eldin]

And even some bad endings are worth seeing.

especially the ones in school days.

[Tay]

Re: Walkthroughs and Play-style - This is a really common feeling. We've all been there at different points, and we all come out with different answers. My suggestion to you is to experiment a little, and find out what comes naturally to you. Each person plays VNs a little differently (this led to me giving Ryoji some disastrous advice about G-Senjou no Maou), and that's okay. Find what makes you happy, and what lets you experience the magic of VNs. (if you're not feeling the magic -- if you're only feeling the perfectionist tendencies -- change things up!)

I, for one, decided to start each game without a walkthrough, finish the route I naturally arrived at via the choices that came naturally to me, and then -- on subsequent playthroughs -- to use walkthroughs if I wanted. This fits my play-style because it 1) allows me to avoid spoilers in the walkthroughs; 2) dive straight into a game with little-or-no foreknowledge; 3) explore; and 4) not know very much about how long the game is, or what its pace is like. I enjoy the magic of exploration, and the VN medium allows for a lot of both. (This approach is definitely the minority as far as VN players go, though, but it makes me happy! <-- what you should strive for when looking for your own play-style)

Re: Anime Adaptations - Just like when a book is adapted into a movie, the anime adaptations do not cover all the routes or all the characterization/plot of a VN. There are a lot of missed gems in the VN, and so I suggest that in order to cope, you approach these VNs with an open mind, waiting and expecting to be surprised. The more you explore, to more you'll realize the VN experience is really rich and rewarding -- even for those whose adaptations into anime you've already seen.

[jaxter0987]

yet I would hate to play a VN that spans so many hours and only get a "bad" ending that isn't the main focus of the story.

Given the situation of these dynamics, am I fretting too much?

Being fairly new to the Visual Novel scene, I can honestly say that I was in the same situation. I definitely didn't want to experience a bad end but at the same time, I realized if I just saved often enough, I won't lose much progress even if I get a long winded bad end.

[Mikel]

I personally like to use walkthoughs, I don't like bad endings, so I make sure not to get them, but the walkthoughs don't spoil anything for me, they just tell you which option you have to choose to get to a specific route. They don't say anything about the story.

Like exsion said, I just couldn't handle playing that many hours and get to a bad ending.

[Steve]

Well it is also one of the qualities we need to rate in visual novels, because it is what makes them enjoyable.

Good visual novels might have bad end, but it is the player who chooses the bad ends, take an RPG, you make a bad decision during combat, press wrong button, you can die, your companions can die and you need to restart. In strategy you make a bad opening and it can take another 10 minus before you start to feel your mistake from earlier.

And Visual novels are still games, it is game about recognizing the story, learning everything about the characters.

A good visual novel will give you straight decisions, you know what you are deciding and if yo didn't pay attention during some scene, don't understand a characters feelings properly, you will end up in bad end. But if you are good at recognizing it, you take your time with the VN, try to feel the characters, you will be fine.

In VNs with well made choices I never had a problem and I don' use WT until I am stuck and fail to get to a girls route.

But just as with any game, there are games that can do a worse job at some parts, and there are VNs like that too. Often it can be games with too many choices and you are often not given any hint or information on what is the correct choice. Are you supposed to buy a drink or stay home? How would I know if I wasn't given any hint.

I recently played Hatsukoi and I recommended using WT (I made English one on fuwan even) because it had so many choices without you possibly predicting the outcome of the choice. And I had to give it a little lower score even though I enjoyed it so much, story-wise it was one of the best VNs I played, but the need to always tab out to check for the correct choice because some of them were really not introduced enough to know the right answer weakened the experience a little (I still gave it 9.2 lol but it could have been solid 9.5 had I not have to tab out xD)

Still I would recommend starting all VNs without WT and only if you get burned by a bad choice system use it (like I did in hatsukoi, luckily I noticed early enough that I was getting weird events with a different girl then I was going for - only because one choice that was supposed to be meaningless, because at the time of the choice I didn't have enough information to make the right decision).

You can usually ask people who played it and they will tell you if WT is required, advised, optional or absolutely pointless.

Hoshimemo - WT pointless, choices are so easy.

LB - optional, choices are easy but there is lot of them so you can potentially make a mistake

Wanko - advised, choices are mostly straightforward but it can get confusing

Hatsukoi - required , choices are so random that you can't possibly know the outcome on the first playthrough

only few examples

But as you can see there are VNs where you can have so much enjoyment and experience full immersion because of the choices are well made, for me it felt like I lived in Hoshimemo during the time I played it, didn't need to tab out to check right choices, I just enjoyed for hours straight.

Therefore like I said, I would recommend NOT using WT initially, unless someone tells you it is required or advised to use it. You will get much better immersion if that is what you are after.

[Metaler]

I tend not to use walkthroughs unless the VN has some annoying gimmick like Steins;Gate. Most of the times I just like to discover things on my own. Imagine having a walkthrough tell you every little nook and cranny of Fallout 3; that'd ruin the magic of the game, I think. Explore, discover, don't be afraid of the unknown. Missed something? Welp, you can always go back and look for it.

[exsion]

I think everyone made a great point about the virtues of what it means to playthrough a visual novel. Or maybe more so on what a VN has to offer that makes it so uniquely different than other media forms. I guess it really does come down the individual to make a choice given what kind of VN (such that the type of routes or game system is possibly different company to company).

I probably hoped for a way to combine VNs into a "common feature" but it's really not feasible given that each company have different goals for what their product will try and achieve. I'm not happy for this kind of skeptical answer but then again, at least I have this forum to vent off some of my frustrations.

It's a lot more fun to discuss these kinds of things than to mull it over in my head!

[Mephisto]

I tend not to use walkthroughs unless the VN has some annoying gimmick like Steins;Gate. Most of the times I just like to discover things on my own. Imagine having a walkthrough tell you every little nook and cranny of Fallout 3; that'd ruin the magic of the game, I think. Explore, discover, don't be afraid of the unknown. Missed something? Welp, you can always go back and look for it.

Oddly enough, I thought Steins;gate mechanic was brilliant. There is something magical about not knowing what the hell you are doing that borders on how we make choices in real life.

[solidbatman]

I use a walkthrough regardless of what VN it is. Playing a VN has taken over for reading books for me, so it has to compete for time with video games and anime. The problem is, when I get a bad end, it sucks nearly all of the motivation out of me to continue reading. This nearly happened with Clannad (and it was Steve who got me to replay the 6 hours and finish it). So don't feel bad about using a walkthrough.

[jaxter0987]

I use a walkthrough regardless of what VN it is. Playing a VN has taken over for reading books for me, so it has to compete for time with video games and anime. The problem is, when I get a bad end, it sucks nearly all of the motivation out of me to continue reading. This nearly happened with Clannad (and it was Steve who got me to replay the 6 hours and finish it). So don't feel bad about using a walkthrough.

Still I would recommend starting all VNs without WT and only if you get burned by a bad choice system use it (like I did in hatsukoi, luckily I noticed early enough that I was getting weird events with a different girl then I was going for - only because one choice that was supposed to be meaningless, because at the time of the choice I didn't have enough information to make the right decision).

What happened to Steve with Hatsukoi is exactly what happened to me with Clannad and I ended up in the same position as solidbatman (I got bad ends at three different attempts). I finally decided I'm going to attempt Clannad again without a walkthrough and see where I end up. I'm hoping that having finished Rewrite, I'd have more of an insight on how Key sets up their choices and such.

[Clephas]

After playing a couple of visual novels, I've come across a feeling of regret that stem from a couple of issues I wonder if anyone else felt.

In some cases there are visual novels that have had anime adaptations made. And while the adaptations may or may not well represent the story of the original VN, it does show enough plot and character development that makes me feel a bit "cheated" out of a brand new introduction of a well-done story.

In the case of anime, there is no choice or paths to play, and so one must take the story as it comes. And while this may detract from some freedom and creativity, it does relieve some burden of "perfectionist" types to uncover every nook of truth. Lately any VN I've become interested in playing has me looking into walkthroughs on how to get the "best" routes and scenes. It's like being told the spoilers ahead of time and yet I would hate to play a VN that spans so many hours and only get a "bad" ending that isn't the main focus of the story.

Given the situation of these dynamics, am I fretting too much?

Most walkthroughs don't provide any real spoilers, save for who the heroines are. For games two years old or more, Foolmaker's walkthroughs provide the most efficient methods to get through the game with the least amount of repeated text and skipping while getting all the CG's. Right now, most games have seiya-saiga walkthroughs... (non-nukige anyway). As for pitfalls... moege tend to be hit and miss. There are ones that are just too archetypical for words (the greater majority of them) and ones that are truly awesome (a very small number). To be blunt, VNs are meant to be read more than played, and I 'play' them as a reader rather than as a gamer.

[Zalor]

Most walkthroughs don't provide any real spoilers, save for who the heroines are. For games two years old or more, Foolmaker's walkthroughs provide the most efficient methods to get through the game with the least amount of repeated text and skipping while getting all the CG's. Right now, most games have seiya-saiga walkthroughs... (non-nukige anyway). As for pitfalls... moege tend to be hit and miss. There are ones that are just too archetypical for words (the greater majority of them) and ones that are truly awesome (a very small number). To be blunt, VNs are meant to be read more than played, and I 'play' them as a reader rather than as a gamer.

Wow, you're views about playing/reading VN's seem to be very similar to mine. I think there are two types of eroge players. Those that treat a VN as a game, and work for the ending they want, and those who treat VNs as books and use walkthroughs so they don't interfere with the story by making a stupid choice. I personally treat VNs more as a book than I do a game. Also, none of the walkthroughs I used for any VN included spoilers.

[Metaler]

Oddly enough, I thought Steins;gate mechanic was brilliant. There is something magical about not knowing what the hell you are doing that borders on how we make choices in real life.

I thought that was pretty neat at first, too, but the problem is that the keywords in the text messages really tell you nothing about what Okarin will write about.

On a related note, I have to admit that I didn't know you could make calls to other characters when prompted, since I never noticed the little icon on the text box. orz

[solidbatman]

I thought that was pretty neat at first, too, but the problem is that the keywords in the text messages really tell you nothing about what Okarin will write about.

On a related note, I have to admit that I didn't know you could make calls to other characters when prompted, since I never noticed the little icon on the text box. orz

The phone mechanic is pretty cool. Adds a nice mix up to the usual dialogue choices. And I'm having too much fun mixing and matching ringtone combinations.

As for walkthroughs, I love them as long as they are spoiler free, and typically they all are. I mean, you may see the choice before hand, but the context is what gives the impact.

[RusAnon]

I find using walkthrougs from beginning much more sane choice than not using them at all. In most cases I'm aiming for 100% completion anyway, and hunting for "that missing cg" by hand is nightmare.

Moreover, there are games like G-Senjou where not following correct order of routes will spoil you all the fun, or like Kara no Shoujo which are so complex [and annoying in terms of non-scrollable content] that you will give up long before you could test all combinations of choices.

Plus there are border-line VNs like Gust's games (Ar Tonelico and Atelier series) or Eushully's or Alice Soft's, which have significant amount of non-VN gameplay which can be quite tedious w/out help. I've clocked well over 200 hours on Kamidori even with wiki and quest/items/dungeons/skills/recipes spreadsheets around, knowing some stuff in advance made it more fun and [a bit] less grind.

[Clephas]

I find using walkthrougs from beginning much more sane choice than not using them at all. In most cases I'm aiming for 100% completion anyway, and hunting for "that missing cg" by hand is nightmare.

Moreover, there are games like G-Senjou where not following correct order of routes will spoil you all the fun, or like Kara no Shoujo which are so complex [and annoying in terms of non-scrollable content] that you will give up long before you could test all combinations of choices.

Plus there are border-line VNs like Gust's games (Ar Tonelico and Atelier series) or Eushully's or Alice Soft's, which have significant amount of non-VN gameplay which can be quite tedious w/out help. I've clocked well over 200 hours on Kamidori even with wiki and quest/items/dungeons/skills/recipes spreadsheets around, knowing some stuff in advance made it more fun and [a bit] less grind.

With Eushully's games it depends on the game. With Ikusa Megami Zero, I was careful to start using a walkthrough at the late game, when optional areas started popping up, but most of the rest of the game can be completed pretty well without that. (the optional characters in that game are some of the most powerful) Soukoku no Arterial on the other hand... most definitely needed a walkthrough. Too many endings, hidden items and the like to make it a viable choice to not play that way. Not only that, but the game got ridiculously hard at the end if you weren't careful. I never played Kamidori, because it is generally despised by Eushully fans for being the worst game on their list (besides Kodzukuri Banchou). I always find it highly ironic that the ones that got tled were the ones most hated by fans of the company...

Daiteikoku is virtually unplayable without some kind of roadmap to figure out what order to do certain things after turn 15 or so. In particular if you don't choose Nihonka (or Japanization in english), the game becomes a bit too hard to manage without a walkthrough of some sort.

With G-senjou, its best to just do the main route only. The side routes will only sour you on the game in general.

[Down]

With G-senjou, its best to just do the main route only. The side routes will only sour you on the game in general.

B-but they're great!

Okay, Tsubaki's drags on a bit.

But I like them a lot :'(

Without aiming for true completion, I usually aim for all routes + bad ends completions when I like the game... (The bad ends of G-senjou are great btw) and doing the side routes after the main wouldn't work.

[Clephas]

B-but they're great!

Okay, Tsubaki's drags on a bit.

But I like them a lot :'(

Without aiming for true completion, I usually aim for all routes + bad ends completions when I like the game... (The bad ends of G-senjou are great btw) and doing the side routes after the main wouldn't work.

I was more focused on the fact that the side-routes and their heroines were completely irrelevant. I liked the game more after I went back and treated it as a kinetic novel and loathed it when I tried to act as if the heroines actually had their own routes rather than fakes that are meant as a sop to those who want to see h-scenes with them.

[RusAnon]

With G-senjou, its best to just do the main route only. The side routes will only sour you on the game in general.

I liked some of them. But the point is — you either play side-routes first (and preferrably in correct order) or do not at all, because they are too silly

once you learn about Maou identity.

Modo edit: spoiler tags

[Down]

I was more focused on the fact that the side-routes and their heroines were completely irrelevant. I liked the game more after I went back and treated it as a kinetic novel and loathed it when I tried to act as if the heroines actually had their own routes rather than fakes that are meant as a sop to those who want to see h-scenes with them.

Well, I don't give a shit about H-scenes, yet those side routes I found good. They're not solving the whole plot, but they still give an alternative ending to the game. It's actually four different stories, not one story with minor changes and a different love interest. And you have to treat them as really different stories, since otherwise they're not coherent with the main plot. The three side stories have an inferior plot, but since you play them before the true end, it's a build up toward this fantastic final chapter.

I liked this game structure, that allowed to not have some kind of harem around the MC yet multiple heroines.

[sanahtlig]

I never played Kamidori, because it is generally despised by Eushully fans for being the worst game on their list (besides Kodzukuri Banchou). I always find it highly ironic that the ones that got tled were the ones most hated by fans of the company...

Kodzukuri Banchou is a nukige by the sister brand Anastasia. Kamidori is definitely not the worst game in Eushully's catalog (they have plenty of older titles that don't stand the test of time). And among Japanese players, it's one of their best rated games on Erogamescape. The story is nothing special, but the gameplay is top-notch--among the best you'll find in eroge.

[Metaler]

I find using walkthrougs from beginning much more sane choice than not using them at all. In most cases I'm aiming for 100% completion anyway, and hunting for "that missing cg" by hand is nightmare.

Moreover, there are games like G-Senjou where not following correct order of routes will spoil you all the fun, or like Kara no Shoujo which are so complex [and annoying in terms of non-scrollable content] that you will give up long before you could test all combinations of choices.

Plus there are border-line VNs like Gust's games (Ar Tonelico and Atelier series) or Eushully's or Alice Soft's, which have significant amount of non-VN gameplay which can be quite tedious w/out help. I've clocked well over 200 hours on Kamidori even with wiki and quest/items/dungeons/skills/recipes spreadsheets around, knowing some stuff in advance made it more fun and [a bit] less grind.

Kara no Shoujo was one of the few games I had to use a walkthrough for. Fuck the investigation segments.

If anyone here played the sequel: are they better?