Deep Blue Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 This is a game from the year 1999 (https://vndb.org/v177): This predates Kanon. Age is not really an excuse. Well, you can say that MOST of the competition did look bad back then and you wouldn't necessarily be wrong, but that's because nobody bothered spending money on competent artists except a select few studios such as Leaf. The fact that there were more incompetent artists back then than now doesn't make me want to accept incompetent art. edit: Although I praise Leaf, To Heart looked baaaaad. So they also had their rough "can't afford anyone competent" phase, but they managed to get out of that quickly. edit 2: Changed to a better example. You complain about this(because of the neck) : But not this? They are the same, the same drawings, one from leaf the other one from key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decay Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 They are the same, except for how one looks infinitely better than the other. The neck on the green haired girl is a little on the long side but I give it a pass because everything else is fine. I have no other criticisms of it, no misshapen skulls or misproportioned facial features or messed up senses of perspective or anything else like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deep Blue Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Well I don't agree with your opinion but then again this things are subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beato Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 The bottom picture is way better in pretty much every way, hands down. Especially stuff like the arms and fabric (which is incidentally one of the biggest issues with Hinoue's art and plagues pretty much all her works). But she also can't do dynamic poses at all, which is why Key's CG's are typically very uninteresting. When she tries to do even a slightly unorthodox angle it typically turns out very weirdly like that cg of Kotarou and Yoshino in Rewrite for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariurotl Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I have more problems with Key writing than with Key artstyle Amen. I got used to the art in both Kanon and Clannad fairly quickly and didn't mind it at all after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvz Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 Girl, so many answers. I'll comment then tomorrow, since I have no time now, but I feel good knowing that I'm not the only one seeing no problem with Key. And, man, the second image is WAY worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexZandria Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I think people in general tends to confuse lack of quality with "weird" art style, I've read a lot of comments saying that steins;gate had some really awful quality in their drawings and that's not true at all, it's just different from the normal anime stuff you found everyday. No no no no, it's not weird art stile, it's bad quality art. There is a difference. One is like screwing up anatomy and not knowing clor theory or how to shade, and the other one is using stylistic choices to make your art stand out. this guy has to be pinching nerves to have his hands positioned like this on top of the fact that he looks like he should be in 3/4ths view and yet his back shoulder is the same size as his front shoulder. this guy has a serious case of fish lips the girl on the left has her head displaced from its proper position on her neck and the girl on the right eithr has no shoulders or somebody smashed them with a hammer and broke them so that she could slope them like that. here is an image that shows multiple ways of how not to shade a piece. A) you never use white as your 'highlight' color B ) you never you black as the color for your shadows, C) the airbrush tool is not a legitimate way to soft shade D) they used cell shading for the hair and then soft shading for the face making the hair the only part that strictly uses cell shading E) for 90% of the picture the light source is the top left and yet the highlights/shadows of the hair completely ignore this rule for no logical reason. The girl on the left's face looks seriously screwed up probably because somebody had to strangle her for an extended period of time to make her neck contort into the shape it is. Necks don't just magically get super narrow at the top. Not only that but somebody bashed in one of her shoulders because somehow in a 3/4ths view the shoulder farther away extends out significantly more than the one closer up (and it should be the other way around)The girl on the right has her eyes off center to the rest of the picture, and her face looks lopsided along with the case teetering on "somebody broke my shoulders with a hammer" again. Because she doesn't have them. Neither of them have their chins positioned right compared to their mouths and I could also re-point out that they used white to shade. this girl be my favorite girl. Like seriously. Either her leg got dislocated or her butt is hella lopsided because her right buttcheek is A LOT lower than her left. See where the skirt is folding under her, that's about where her butt is. Take a finger and and line it up with her knuckles or the hem of her shirt to get the angle of the picture (basically to show you how angled everything should be) now keeping that finger at the same angle, slide it over to that comma after incidentally (where her but is about) notice how the the front of her thigh is practically where the back of her thigh should be. That is the equivalent of me having 1 buttcheek where my butt is and the other one half way down my thigh if she were to be standing up. IDK how that is 'style' and not really bad anatomy. I haven't pulled out my tablet in so long but I really want to redline some of this art right now. Because it makes me cry. kratoscar2008, Decay and Silvz 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexZandria Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 You complain about this(because of the neck) : But not this? They are the same, the same drawings, one from leaf the other one from key. No look at the 2 necks. Girl on the left of the top picture has her neck visibly shrink in diameter. The girl in the bottom picutre's neck doesn't get wider until her trapezius muscle, which is where it should gain width. Neither picture is really good quality art, but the girl on the bottom (while her neck is thin) at least has a neck that follows muscle structure logic. kratoscar2008 and Decay 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decay Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Oh god I didn't notice the issue with Chihaya's right leg in that Rewrite CG until you pointed it out and now I can't unsee it. It's hideous. Every Hinoue drawing is like a treasure trove of anatomical oddities. Silvz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suikashoujo Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I will never understand people who expect realistic proportions in their anime. Of course it doesn't look "right," it's not trying to be. I can understand if someone doesn't like the art in Key games, even if I personally love Key. But I feel like complaining about smaller anatomical details is only relevant when looking at drawings that are MEANT to be realistically proportioned. I mean, you wouldn't look at, say, a nukige with a focus on big breasts and say "yeah it was okay, but those breasts were way too unrealistic." Its the same thing here: Hinoue draws cute anime girls that are meant to look cute, even if it's at the cost of realism. Deep Blue and Silvz 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decay Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I will never understand people who expect realistic proportions in their anime. Of course it doesn't look "right," it's not trying to be. I can understand if someone doesn't like the art in Key games, even if I personally love Key. But I feel like complaining about smaller anatomical details is only relevant when looking at drawings that are MEANT to be realistically proportioned. I mean, you wouldn't look at, say, a nukige with a focus on big breasts and say "yeah it was okay, but those breasts were way too unrealistic." Its the same thing here: Hinoue draws cute anime girls that are meant to look cute, even if it's at the cost of realism. No, it is certainly trying to look right to a certain extent. Anime drawings are of course heavily exaggerated caricatures of the human body, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to draw poorly within that style. None of the critics here are wanting the drawings to be hyper realistic or anything. They just don't want hideous misshapen butts or one eye that droops lower on the face than another. Realism is not a factor, it's inconsistent and sloppy art that is the factor at hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suikashoujo Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 No, it is certainly trying to look right to a certain extent. Anime drawings are of course heavily exaggerated caricatures of the human body, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to draw poorly within that style. None of the critics here are wanting the drawings to be hyper realistic or anything. They just don't want hideous misshapen butts or one eye that droops lower on the face than another. Realism is not a factor, it's inconsistent and sloppy art that is the factor at hand. Well, okay, fair enough, I guess. I'm not saying any of the examples given were perfect, either. I was probably overreacting anyways. I still have a hard time calling the art in Rewrite or Little Busters bad, but everyone has their own tastes, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nosebleed Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 The main problem i see with Inoue is that she doesn't know how she wants to draw, every character she draws has a different body deformity. And i agree this is not about being realistic, but it's hard to ignore certain things, even in anime. I've read pretty old shoujo manga, i know the definition of eyeballs bigger than the character's brain, and yet i find it less disturbing than Inoue's deformed bodies/faces. Because at least in manga they manage to draw the same weird ass artstyle consistently, so it doesn't feel out of place. Key however doesn't follow this rule, so you tend to be bothered by the anomalies a lot more since they stick out. Seriously the first time I saw Masato in LB I wasn't sure how to feel, i thought he had a muscle growth disease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deep Blue Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 To me it seems that some of you are trying to impose your point of view. "key is bad quality art" "key is just plain bad art" etc etc, period. Again, art is not something you can call bad or good, it depends on the person's point of view and nothing more, for example I think that the Mona Lisa is hideous in every aspect but that is just MY opinion. However, you can say that A is better than B because of x y z reason , that doesn't mean that B is bad, if you compare any of those images with this one, all of them are terrible...and the point is they are not, they are just different maybe not as good as this one but definitely they are not bad, someone might even say that they are better than this drawing and that's fine too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciruelo_Cabral ~K.S~ and suikashoujo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kratoscar2008 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 You cant wash aways everything with "itsanimeidonthavetoexplainshit", you cant always ignore QUALITY artwork just because its anime. Im not sure why would someone compare a dragon to an anime girl to make a point lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decay Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 To me it seems that some of you are trying to impose your point of view. "key is bad quality art" "key is just plain bad art" etc etc, period. Again, art is not something you can call bad or good, it depends on the person's point of view and nothing more, for example I think that the Mona Lisa is hideous in every aspect but that is just MY opinion. However, you can say that A is better than B because of x y z reason , that doesn't mean that B is bad, if you compare any of those images with this one, all of them are terrible...and the point is they are not, they are just different maybe not as good as this one but definitely they are not bad, someone might even say that they are better than this drawing and that's fine too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciruelo_Cabral I like key's art style I don't mind the disproportional characteristics on their drawings I found them charming in a way and after so many years they are still drawing almost in the same way for a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nosebleed Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 All i like is consistency. When i read Hunter x Hunter, i'm expecting art that looks like it was drawn by a 5 year old. But at least everything looks the same. An even greater example, Higurashi, most people think it looks hideous, but at least everything looks the same so you can't complain since it's obviously artistic choice. And then you look at Key, everything seems to be fine on the cover, and then you always end up finding that one random thing that sticks out from the rest. It doesn't feel like an artistic choice, it feels like someone just randomly slipped while drawing it, and that's what gets it the bad rep, the fact that it looks like a slip rather than an artistic preference. I would love to say "I love Inoue's art" but how can i say that or explain it when most of the things she draws look so different and inconsistent, always having differences even between characters of the same series? And that is where I draw the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deep Blue Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I agree that a very large part of art evaluation is highly subjective. But there are objective qualities that can be evaluated, too. Most things discussed here, especially in AlexZandria's posts, are pretty objective. Sloppy is sloppy, even if you end up liking the end result anyways. It's okay to like Hinoue's art, I won't try to say that nobody should like it. But even if you do like it, you have to recognize that it's pretty flawed in a lot of areas. Those of us who dislike it can't look past those flaws. edit: I'm also only saying this while disregarding all other qualities of the games. I actually really enjoy most of Key's games despite the art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowtsuku Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Dunno. Key's VN always have sprites/CGs that look awkward because some faces look deformed or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexZandria Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I will never understand people who expect realistic proportions in their anime. Of course it doesn't look "right," it's not trying to be. I can understand if someone doesn't like the art in Key games, even if I personally love Key. But I feel like complaining about smaller anatomical details is only relevant when looking at drawings that are MEANT to be realistically proportioned. I mean, you wouldn't look at, say, a nukige with a focus on big breasts and say "yeah it was okay, but those breasts were way too unrealistic." Its the same thing here: Hinoue draws cute anime girls that are meant to look cute, even if it's at the cost of realism. kratoscar2008 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexZandria Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 To me it seems that some of you are trying to impose your point of view. "key is bad quality art" "key is just plain bad art" etc etc, period. Again, art is not something you can call bad or good, it depends on the person's point of view and nothing more, for example I think that the Mona Lisa is hideous in every aspect but that is just MY opinion. However, you can say that A is better than B because of x y z reason , that doesn't mean that B is bad, if you compare any of those images with this one, all of them are terrible...and the point is they are not, they are just different maybe not as good as this one but definitely they are not bad, someone might even say that they are better than this drawing and that's fine too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciruelo_Cabral I like key's art style I don't mind the disproportional characteristics on their drawings I found them charming in a way and after so many years they are still drawing almost in the same way for a reason. No no no. Saying you dislike something or that it is generally bad is an opinion. Saying that the anatomy or quality is bad isn't really an much of an opinion. You can say that you don't like the Mona Lisa and that you think it's ugly. Those are opinions. But you didn't say "I think the Mona Lisa has bad anatomy" or that "the quality of the Mona Lisa is low". It is a good quality piece it is just not a piece that fits your taste. Something can be hideous and be good quality. Hideous is an opinion, quality has a slight opinion on it but quality in art is measured by specific art theories that hold true in every piece of art. Repetition, perspective, composition, theories of color, rules of anatomy. They measure art quality. It's measured by your adherence to the rules of art and the symbolism behind breaking them. If you break a rule of art, without a reason, the quality is lowered. It's not so much an opinion in that case. Its like a cook deciding to add or take out ingredients or an architect adding/subtracting certain foundational structures. If there isn't a reason why you took out some of those supporting beams the whole house becomes shaky and the quality is undeniably lowered. You aren't going to argue that that is an 'opinion' Roach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexZandria Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I agree with everything that you are saying, that's why I said that you can compare things and you will find out that some stuffs are better than others, because some artists are better than others and that's a fact, but saying that her drawings are plain bad that's when I disagree. I'm saying that, in my opinion, her art is bad because she lacks fundamentals in anatomy, composition, and color theory that are indisputably important in all works of art. A lot of people bag on Key's art and the reason is because the quality is in part measurable by those factors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deep Blue Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 You cant wash aways everything with "itsanimeidonthavetoexplainshit", you cant always ignore QUALITY artwork just because its anime. Im not sure why would someone compare a dragon to an anime girl to make a point lol. emm because I was talking about art and the quality of a drawing in general maybe? No no no. Saying you dislike something or that it is generally bad is an opinion. Saying that the anatomy or quality is bad isn't really an much of an opinion. You can say that you don't like the Mona Lisa and that you think it's ugly. Those are opinions. But you didn't say "I think the Mona Lisa has bad anatomy" or that "the quality of the Mona Lisa is low". It is a good quality piece it is just not a piece that fits your taste. Something can be hideous and be good quality. Hideous is an opinion, quality has a slight opinion on it but quality in art is measured by specific art theories that hold true in every piece of art. Repetition, perspective, composition, theories of color, rules of anatomy. They measure art quality. It's measured by your adherence to the rules of art and the symbolism behind breaking them. If you break a rule of art, without a reason, the quality is lowered. It's not so much an opinion in that case. Its like a cook deciding to add or take out ingredients or an architect adding/subtracting certain foundational structures. If there isn't a reason why you took out some of those supporting beams the whole house becomes shaky and the quality is undeniably lowered. You aren't going to argue that that is an 'opinion' I'm not arguing that her draws don't have flaws, I know they do and they are pretty notorious, if you see sunohara in clannad most of the time he looks really "weird" but I find that charming, I'm not saying that her art is the best out there either I just like her drawings and her art style even if it's flawed. You are saying that her drawings have flaws(being anatomy, composition, etc doesn't matter even if it is basic stuff) and because of that it turns them into bad art, well I don't share that opinion with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amon Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Some key artworks are really a turnoff. I love clannad and little busters, so I thought I gotta check out the other novels. Clannad already had some flaws, little busters was tolerable. Then I saw the characters from Kanon and Air and I instantly canceled that thought. Very regrettable, because I like keys stories keenly. I´m still not sure how to tackle that issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getsuya Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 For Kanon just watch the anime. Sure it's not the same as playing through the whole story but at least you'll get the good parts For Air... don't play or watch Air. This might be an unpopular opinion but I don't think Air is a work Key should be proud of and I don't think people should feel any desire to read it. I mean it literally has a disease that prevents a character from being happy. No seriously she will literally die if she gets too happy. That's not a good way to make a sympathetic character. That's grabbing the player by the shoulders and shaking them while screaming "FEEL EMOTIONS!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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