MangaGamer's Message to Fan-translators

[sanahtlig]

Mangagamer has affirmed that this statement is their official response, carefully considered, reviewed by multiple staff and posted by the head honcho to deliver a message.  Oh dear.

[Soulless Watcher]

Here's some uninformed speculation on MajiKoi:

Fan translation team announces MajiKoi patch is nearly finished.

JAST shows interest in licensing the game and contacts the fan group.

JAST contacts license holders.  License holders demand licensing fees that JAST is unwilling to pay, or have unfeasible expectations that presuppose huge success on Steam.

Fan group releases patch because negotiations failed or are dragging out.

I believe the fantranslators have stated that they were not contacted by Jast at all.

I don't see the problem with fantranslations.

There are translation of Mangas but they are still bought, there are translation on Animes but they are still bought, I think it's the same for VNs.

Most people would pay for the VN even if there is a Fantranslation and those who wouldn't are those who either can't buy them from their site or they would just pirate the official release. That's something you can see everywhere (Anime, Mangas, Videogames which aren't VNs, even books since Ebooks came up).

The problem is that VN are incredibly niche to begin with, even with fans of anime and manga. I guarantee at least half of the people who watched the grisaia anime had no idea about the source material. It dosn't help that the fans of VNs pretty much have all pirated at least once or twice because a japanese copy of a visual novel is such a pain to get in the first place, so when your targeted demographic is known for pirating it makes less sense to try and legaly sale products to the demographic.

 

Mmm... it would be more appropriate to say that in the case of Akabei and Alice Soft, it was more of a passive tendency toward business conservatism.  They dislike taking risks, and involving themselves with the foreign market is a risk for both of them, due to the themes their VNs cover.  The bigger and older the Japanese company, the more likely this is going to be an issue. On the other hand, Alice Soft is probably remembering the Rapelay controversy, as well as the way people react to rape as a joke here.  The Rance and 'Dai' games are both full of rape, usually but not always as a joke.  Either way, it is going to take a lot of incentive for Alice Soft to want to take that kind of risk.  Becoming controversial in Japan is bad for business.

It dosn't help that the Grisaia kickstarter kicked up that big of a fuss for simply offering dakimas as backer awards.

[Darklord Rooke]

I admire a company who says what they think and doesn't hide behind weasel-word, PR, this-sentence-has-no-actual-meaning, speak. That doesn't mean I'll listen or agree with them, but at least we know where they stand.

[Abyssal Monkey]

Mangagamer has affirmed that this statement is their official response, carefully considered, reviewed by multiple staff and posted by the head honcho to deliver a message.  Oh dear.

[Soulless Watcher]

Oh dear is the correct response.  I don't even...  If MG honestly thinks that fan TL is bad, then they need to take a step back and look at the entire popularization of Japanese media in the west.  Almost all of it started with fans translating it for others: 

Anime started with bootleg subs on cd, grew into a few day waiting period on streaming sites, before finally becoming a few hour delay with official services like Crunchyroll and Funimation

Still though you have to wonder how much money is lost from the million illegal anime streaming sites around the web.

[Abyssal Monkey]

Still though you have to wonder how much money is lost from the million illegal anime streaming sites around the web.

I'm going with Clephas on this one.  Piracy is never an indication of lost sales.  If you want to claim that people pirating something is a lost sale, then prove that they had the intention to buy it in the first place.  Here's the problem:  you can't.  Piracy is used by people who don't have money or the means of accessing the material is too difficult.  I like to believe that the success of steam sales is in part because the people who would never have tried the game before picked it up because of how cheap and easy it was to do it.  Hell, I know people who have spends hundreds of dollars on games they have never played before on steam just because they picked it up on a sale with the intention "I might play this one day".  If that isn't a great argument against the piracy is lost sales argument, I sure as hell don't know what is.

[Soulless Watcher]

I'm going with Clephas on this one.  Piracy is never an indication of lost sales.  If you want to claim that people pirating something is a lost sale, then prove that they had the intention to buy it in the first place.  Here's the problem:  you can't.  Piracy is used by people who don't have money or the means of accessing the material is too difficult.  I like to believe that the success of steam sales is in part because the people who would never have tried the game before picked it up because of how cheap and easy it was to do it.  Hell, I know people who have spends hundreds of dollars on games they have never played before on steam just because they picked it up on a sale with the intention "I might play this one day".  If that isn't a great argument against the piracy is lost sales argument, I sure as hell don't know what is.

You have a awful lot of faith in the human race. People who pirate are also people who like to save as much money as possible so they can spend it on other things. The mere fact that someone has a internet connection proves that they likely have at least a stable enough income to afford housing, a computer, and a internet connection. So, if they were patient enough and were smart enough with their finances it wouldn't be surpising that they could afford alot of the stuff they pirate in due time. Just because one type of person helps sales by impulse buying dosn't take away the fact that there are other types of people who actively pirate that hurt sales.

[Zenophilious]

I admire a company who says what they think and doesn't hide behind weasel-word, PR, this-sentence-has-no-actual-meaning, speak. That doesn't mean I'll listen or agree with them, but at least we know where they stand.

This.  So much this.  I can't stand it when companies rely on doublespeak and bull-shit PR spin tactics.  Of course, that means that I'm consistently irritated, because it happens all the time...

 

Don't agree with almost anything they said, but like Rooke said, at least they didn't try the usual spin-doctoring.

[Nosebleed]

You have a awful lot of faith in the human race. People who pirate are also people who like to save as much money as possible so they can spend it on other things. The mere fact that someone has a internet connection proves that they likely have at least a stable enough income to afford housing, a computer, and a internet connection. So, if they were patient enough and were smart enough with their finances it wouldn't be surpising that they could afford alot of the stuff they pirate in due time. Just because one type of person helps sales by impulse buying dosn't take away the fact that there are other types of people who actively pirate that hurt sales.

I don't think this is a very good counter argument.

Being smart with finances in my book means spending as little money as possible while getting what you want.

If i could save just a single dollar on a game, i would.

If people can save tens of dollars through piracy, they will.

I have money for games, doesn't mean i want to spend it, though. I only buy stuff when i truly want to be supportive.

Greedy people will be greedy.

[sarkasmus]

You have a awful lot of faith in the human race. People who pirate are also people who like to save as much money as possible so they can spend it on other things. The mere fact that someone has a internet connection proves that they likely have at least a stable enough income to afford housing, a computer, and a internet connection. So, if they were patient enough and were smart enough with their finances it wouldn't be surpising that they could afford alot of the stuff they pirate in due time. Just because one type of person helps sales by impulse buying dosn't take away the fact that there are other types of people who actively pirate that hurt sales.

 

That there are people who pirate stuff, whatever the reason is, won't change just if there are no fantranslations, they'll just pirate the official relaese.

Fantranslation brings a lot of people into VNs, and a lot of them buy the products. Of course there are people who still pirate them but that's unaviodable.

DRM doesn't change that either, it just annoys those who buy the products.

 

look at other games which are not VNs, there are no fantransaltions but they're still pirated.

[sanahtlig]

I could save hundreds of dollars a year if I just pirated all my software.  Doing so wouldn't put a dent in companies' profits.

 

Now apply the categorical imperative.  Everyone pirates all software.  Software development crashes and burns.  The only way to fund software development is crowdfunding.

 

These systems of morals we have exist for a reason.  Why am I so special that I'm allowed to sidestep the rules that everyone else has to play by?

[Darklord Rooke]

Being smart with finances in my book means spending as little money as possible while getting what you want.

 

Being frugal is the wise and intentional use of money whether saving or spending.It is being careful, thrifty and prudent with your resources. Frugality, to me, is getting the most bang for your buck, whether that is Five Bucks or Five Hundred Bucks. Frugality helps you stretch your hard-earned dollars as much as possible.

 

Being cheap, however, is a reluctance to spend money, even on things that are necessary and needed. It is being stingy, miserly, tightfisted. It’s buying things that are lower in quality, just to save a dollar or two. Being cheap is letting others foot the bill or being dishonest in order to save a buck. Cheapness is selfishness and often results from fear; fear of running out of money and not being able to take care of yourself and your family.

 

The key to understanding the difference is to understand that cheapness is only concerned with spending the least amount of money possible. Frugality, however, understands that it is necessary to spend money, yet those that are frugal are thoughtful and wise about when and where they choose to spend their money.

 

http://www.onesmartdollar.com/are-you-just-being-cheap-or-is-it-frugal-living/

 

It is not exactly the case that they both imply saving money. Thrifty does imply that one tends to save money, by means of careful attention to judiciousness in one's expenditures, particularly by always trying to buy things at the lowest possible cost, but also by keeping an eye on getting the highest possible quality for the given cost. Stingy, on the other hand, means miserly, not generous, tending to hoard one's money, and tending to avoid spending one's money at all, not merely injudiciously. So stingy isn't really saving money in the sense of not spending more than one should, but rather keeping money by just hanging onto it at all costs.

 

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/119983/how-can-i-explain-the-difference-between-thrifty-and-stingy

[Nosebleed]

I guess i'm cheap then.

Not that i have a problem with it, it's just the moral values i grew up with, i try to spend as least money as possible on anything. I remember being scolded by my parents when i spent money during highschool on a 3DS game. Money i saved up on my own too.

And my point was basically that there are many more like that out there, who just don't want to take money out of their pocket no matter what, even if they're financially stable.

The ones who spend money probably have better moral values. And that's really what it comes down to in my opinion.

Oh and this doesn't mean i never spend money or anything, i just really understand being on the side of people who never want to give up anything and feel like they should get stuff. I don't consider it an unnatural state to not want to give up your money no matter what.

As someone's who's recently been trying to support more stuff by buying it, i can say it does feel kinda nice, but to many people that's just trivial.

[Darklord Rooke]

Just wanted to point out the difference, it’s something people should at least be aware of. At the very least nearly everybody is stingy at some point in their lives about certain things.

 

But a reluctance to spend money actually makes you a bit of a social pariah depending on the community you’re in. It’s not dissimilar to how Fuwanovel was an outcast in the Visual Novel community for the first couple of years *shrugs*.

[Eclipsed]

TL;DR How dare you make these goldmine VNs no longer goldmine-able for our localization efforts since they are now available for free for dem filthy pirates arggggg so even if we did localize ppl already red so t'will not as profit$-aple argg you should've just joined da club w/ us so we can all do da prophet$(profits) to armagedderon

Overall I... like their stance, and agree with Zeno's agreeing of Rooke's appreciation of their upfront-ness in their stance towards fantranslators.

 

[AlexZandria]

I'm going with Clephas on this one. Piracy is never an indication of lost sales. If you want to claim that people pirating something is a lost sale, then prove that they had the intention to buy it in the first place. Here's the problem: you can't. Piracy is used by people who don't have money or the means of accessing the material is too difficult. I like to believe that the success of steam sales is in part because the people who would never have tried the game before picked it up because of how cheap and easy it was to do it. Hell, I know people who have spends hundreds of dollars on games they have never played before on steam just because they picked it up on a sale with the intention "I might play this one day". If that isn't a great argument against the piracy is lost sales argument, I sure as hell don't know what is.

[Decay]

There have been plenty of people who can afford to buy games but didn't, and pirated them instead. I think Steam has proven this handily, a LOT of pirates jumped ship and started buying stuff on Steam often. I know several. They still pirate things from time to time but they also buy a lot of stuff now, too. Valve has talked at length about how they worked hard to get pirates to buy games off their platform by offering a better service. Previously, pirating games was not only cheaper, but also much easier than buying. Nowadays, it's the other way around. Valve looked at the rampant piracy and saw a sea of potential customers, and that's how they got to where they are today. This does mean that to some extent, piracy is lost sales. It's not 1:1, but I'm confident there are people out there who pirate every VN who could somehow be convinced to buy some VNs every once in a while instead. I don't have the answer, but these people exist and probably make up a bigger portion of pirates than you may expect. 

 

 It’s not dissimilar to how Fuwanovel was an outcast in the Visual Novel community for the first couple of years *shrugs*.

it still is

[AlexZandria]

it still is

 

Man then who isn't? Don't be telling me it's that /r/visualnovels because I swear their posts move so slow just shoot me now.

[Clephas]

The problem with 'choose not to pay' pirates is that their numbers get blown out of proportion by the companies complaining about piracy, even though they are in the minority.  They are a significant - the largest- minority, but they are still a minority.  I dislike it when people and companies fail to face the reality that the fact that people buy digital copies at all is something of a miracle.  When I let myself think about it, the fact that digital copies are just 'licenses to use' pisses me off.  It is why I always import the Japanese versions or get hard copies whenever possible... I hate being reliant on my internet connection to 'verify' an installation. 

 

That said, I'm never going to be someone who says that is a good reason not to pay when you can pay.  My resentment of the current system doesn't get around the fact that without digital releases, companies like Mangagamer wouldn't be able to exist at all.  The prolific nature of Mangagamer is precisely because they can get by with relatively minimal sales, in opposition to those who absolutely must produce a physical copy, who always have manufacturing costs cutting into their profits. 

 

Of course, along with the fact that purchasing licenses doesn't lead to the mental satisfaction of holding the item in question in hand... you do have the advantage of being able to access the game as long as the company exists (though that also means that once the company goes down - as almost all companies eventually do - you won't be able to access the game downloads anymore). 

 

Gah, got off track... but in the end, my point is that neither the 'can but don't pay' pirates or the companies that claim that every pirate can pay (by implication) have a leg to stand on.

[Down]

 

The problem with 'choose not to pay' pirates is that their numbers get blown out of proportion by the companies complaining about piracy, even though they are in the minority.  They are a significant - the largest- minority, but they are still a minority.

But how do we even know that?

This kind of qualitative argument born out of thought experiment and a necessarily small sample of people can't be very convincing, since it's not backed up by actual data.

Mangagamer doesn't have a perfect knowledge of who pirates and who doesn't, but they do have access to accurate and numerous sales data, and they're probably watching closely data such as number of days before pirated version, number of downloads of the pirated version, etc.

 

Therefore I'd be more inclined to (cautiously) believe what they say.

 

What's more I don't think they're blaming piracy and fan translators all that much here anyway - the main message is: the paradigm is shifting and localization is a thing you can no longer ignore, so if you want to translate a game contact us and we'll try to see what we can do.

[XReaper]

after following this topic´s discussion now for some days here on fuwa, or mangagamer´s forum, I´ve now reached the point where it should be said:
"I´m pururin purupururin pururin purupururin rinrin purupuru pururin pururu..."

[Darklord Rooke]

 

it still is

 

It's slowly starting to turn around XD.

 

Fuwanovel is no longer autobanned from Reddit, that's gotta be worth something

[Decay]

The JAST twitter account retweeted something from fuwanovel's, that's pretty big progress. The last time someone from one of the big three interacted with us, it was when Dovac asked us to take down grisaia and started ranting about us and pirates.

[sanahtlig]

Suppose 10% of people who play a game actually buy it.  Suppose 10% of pirates would buy the game if they couldn't pirate it.  Converting those "choose not to pay" pirates to customers would double sales.  A significant minority can still be a powerful force in a niche market like this.

[havoc]

Suppose 10% of people who play a game actually buy it.  Suppose 10% of pirates would buy the game if they couldn't pirate it.  Converting those "choose not to pay" pirates to customers would double sales.  A significant minority can still be a powerful force in a niche market like this.

dont forget that not eveyone chooses not to pay.

 

personally i would love to pay for some of the games that mangagamer has but there is one teensie weensie problem and that is that i DON'T OWN A CREDIT CARD. (needed to get that out of my system)

As for why i dont own a credit card, that would be because i would have to pay for one and paying for a credit card just to be able to buy from mangagamer and a few others goes a little far.

Add to that the fact that i live in holland and that a credit card is not needed in my country, mostly because of IDEAL, wich is by far the most convienient way of paying online.

the result of that is that i buy most of my vn's from steam (the all ages) ans subsequently go a pirate the 18+ version.

 

Dont get me wrong i dont mind paying a few bucks more for the 18+ edition but i need to at least be able to pay with paypal or IDEAL for that to happen.

And mangagamer only accepts credit cards, which is a mayor pain in the ass and i think hass to be hurting sales quite a bit.

 

Curious question to you all:

Do you think mangagamer would see a significant increase in sales if they allowed other payment methods like paypal and IDEAL?