MangaGamer's Message to Fan-translators

[BookwormOtaku]

Just curious but are there any fanlators here who have approached MG to ask if they're interested in using their translation? If so, what's the process like? If not, why?

[Decay]

Just curious but are there any fanlators here who have approached MG to ask if they're interested in using their translation? If so, what's the process like? If not, why?

There have been, the Shin Koihime Musou team is the most notable example. 

[zoom909]

I noticed it calls out "finished" and "full" patches as bad.

So, all I have to do is to do a partial patch, then offer it to the VN publishers, right?

If they accept, then people will get the game anyway.  At some point.

If they decline, then I've done my duty and can continue working on it myself, right?

Am I interpreting it correctly?

[XReaper]

that seems to be it, as far as i understand. but i highly doubt its that easy to either get them to accept the deal, or on their side to get any title localised they´re interested in.
whole posts from koryuu or whomever sounds a bit like a spoiled kid stomping on the floor, urging u to buy some candy, you know
 

[sanahtlig]

Mangagamer has started releasing all ages titles/versions on steam.

But their data, which is the basis for their statement, is based on a pre-Steam market.  When you're playing with large sums of money, you make decisions based on data, not hunches and speculation.

[ExtraMana]

I think its funny that mangagamer considers its self to be helping VNs when in truth they are hurting the mediums perception by focusing on adult games where the protagonist usually sleeps with underage looking characters as oppose to the many titles with greater artistic merit.

It comes across like a thinly veiled attempt to reduce competition.

[AlexZandria]

Mangagamer has started releasing all ages titles/versions on steam.

The game itself wasn't available on Steam though, right?

[XReaper]

I think its funny that mangagamer considers its self to be helping VNs when in truth they are hurting the mediums perception by focusing on adult games where the protagonist usually sleeps with underage looking characters as oppose to the many titles with greater artistic merit.

It comes across like a thinly veiled attempt to reduce competition.

 

that comment did hurt all the onii-chans in the world

[AlexZandria]

I think its funny that mangagamer considers its self to be helping VNs when in truth they are hurting the mediums perception by focusing on adult games where the protagonist usually sleeps with underage looking characters as oppose to the many titles with greater artistic merit.

It comes across like a thinly veiled attempt to reduce competition.

That's just rude man. "Greater artistic merit" you mean the visual novels that look like they were done in a western comic style instead of an anime style? Even the more properly proportioned anime art styles tend to look young. They have plenty of VNs with characters that look more adult for the anime art style but unless we're talking about all the really creepy looking chicks from Starless--all anime characters look pretty going.

[sanahtlig]

I think it's useful to take a look at Doddler's response on this topic to see where Mangagamer is coming from.

http://ask.fm/The_Doddler/answer/124680890609

[Soulless Watcher]

The game itself wasn't available on Steam though, right?

So far you can buy Go! Go! Nippon!, eden, and cho dengeki stryker directly from steam. With Princess Evangile and Higurashi (with ps2 sprites) coming soon.

[AlexZandria]

So far you can buy Go! Go! Nippon!, eden, and cho dengeki stryker directly from steam. With Princess Evangile and Higurashi (with ps2 sprites) comming soon.

I own most of those on Steam. I was talking about ef which was the game we had been discussing before.

[Decay]

I noticed it calls out "finished" and "full" patches as bad.

So, all I have to do is to do a partial patch, then offer it to the VN publishers, right?

If they accept, then people will get the game anyway.  At some point.

If they decline, then I've done my duty and can continue working on it myself, right?

Am I interpreting it correctly?

I think so? MangaGamer expects everyone to run their possible fan projects through them first regardless if MG has a related partnership or not. And what about JAST and Sekai Project? Presumably they're also interested in acquiring new licenses. Anyone else we need to bow down and grovel to in order to get permission to translate something that has nothing to do with them? It's a really insulting position, to be honest. 

[Clephas]

You're conflating IP blocking with no interest in the Western market.  That's a dangerous assumption based on fanbase prejudices, similar to how people immediately assume that when fan translations are C&D'd the Japanese publisher responsible is being "xenophobic".  My point is that most Westerners don't understand the thought processes of Japanese IP holders, and they shouldn't pretend to.

Mmm... it would be more appropriate to say that in the case of Akabei and Alice Soft, it was more of a passive tendency toward business conservatism.  They dislike taking risks, and involving themselves with the foreign market is a risk for both of them, due to the themes their VNs cover.  The bigger and older the Japanese company, the more likely this is going to be an issue. On the other hand, Alice Soft is probably remembering the Rapelay controversy, as well as the way people react to rape as a joke here.  The Rance and 'Dai' games are both full of rape, usually but not always as a joke.  Either way, it is going to take a lot of incentive for Alice Soft to want to take that kind of risk.  Becoming controversial in Japan is bad for business.

[fun2novel]

Don't forget Minori, they had the biggest overreaction to rapelay.

[Liquidacid]

meh seems like a perfectly sensible response when you consider it's coming a company who's trade is selling English translations of VNs, of course a business doesn't want other people giving away the same or similar products to their's for free... even if the fan translation is of a title they aren't going to release it's still giving the customer a choice of a VN that doesn't include giving them money thus they don't like it... it's just a business being a business... 

 

not that it matters what they say anyway because they have no real authority and even if they did no one would listen to them... this will fail on deaf ears the same as when they tell people to stop pirating stuff... there will be a bunch of discussions about the validity and whatnot of this but at the end of the day everyone will just continue doing the same thing as if the statement was never made... it's not like a fan translator is gonna read that and then go "Oh shit! I had no idea let me delete all my work RIGHT NOW!"

 

 

 

it is kind of funny tho since MangaGamer just put this out

 

http://blog.mangagamer.org/2015/03/10/2015-licensing-survey-results/

 

and a bunch of the titles in the "top 10 request list" have fan translations already out including the number one requested title... lol

[sanahtlig]

Surveys are always going to be skewed towards titles people have heard of, whereas people won't bring up titles they've never heard of.  There were actually significant numbers of votes for titles that other companies had already licensed.  What this all indicates is that (surprise) the collection of people's individual wishlists isn't a good indicator of the titles that would be a commercial success (low localization costs, high sales).  Keep in mind that the top titles in the list probably have less than 20% of the overall votes, and you begin to realize that the list isn't that useful except for mocking in forum conversations like this.

 

There's also the small matter that English speakers have no idea what Japanese titles they want because they don't play games in Japanese.  They're just guessing what they think they'd like, based on a small number of titles that caught their attention.  It's kind of funny looking at the recommendation threads on Mangagamer's forums because people just glance at screenshots on VNDB and determine that "Wow, this text game in a language I don't understand looks awesome!"

[kyrt]

One has to look at this from a particular perspective...business. Mangagamer has been doing a number of things inefficiently as far as their business model is concerned. I want to say I am all for purchasing visual novels and the rant below is essentially trying to give some ways to integrate fan-translations into a positive business model.

 

If a company offers a steam version of the game as well as the original 18+ version most people are going to install that on Steam while also owning a copy of the adult version. This idea of giving a free steam game is a marketing strategy to try and show the effectiveness of Steam when probably half or more of the steam product sales come from people who buy combo packs. How many of the people buying the all age version also did not buy the adult versions/hard copies/etc...? Those consumers should be taken out of their survey and then we are left with steam sales. 

 

Mangagamer believes that the visual novel medium is growing and in many ways it is. However Mangagamer is not growing with it. Fan-translations may upset communications with companies but if the company is big enough and has the games we want the recent surge of popularity thanks to the kickstarters of grisaia, clannad, and the recent release of even Steins;Gate should really help show companies that yes people will buy games even if a fan translation has already been done. I own multiple games that started with fan translations and the type of people likely to buy games will buy them fan translation or not. The fan translation should not be used as a crutch to try and prevent piracy or negotiations with other companies.

 

Mangagamer's business model is outdated. They release games first via digital download and have DRM on all of them and this business model more than anything else damages their market on story-driven titles. I am not going to pay 120 dollars total to buy a game twice. The story-driven/character driven vns I wait and buy physical editions and I'm sure I'm not the only person who does it this way. The digital downloads only originally hurts their sales on everything but the nukige titles which probably are a bit less likely to be wanted as a physical edition. I would love to buy quite a few vns from Mangagamer but because of their business model I'm simply not going to until I can get a physical copy or DRM free and this in turn will hurt the popularity of a series and potentially prevent a physical version from getting released...I am not paying double for a game that generally has no real replay value.

 

Mangagamer is asking fan translators to not translate essentially because it hurts their business? There is a very simple solution to this and that is initiation by Mangagamer. Why should the fan translators go to Mangagamer to try and make a product release happen based on a game they are translating. If anything Mangagamer, Jast, Sekai Project, and whatever other company may pop up in the future should be going to the fan translators if they have an interest in releasing one of the games to a non-japanese market. They should know better than the fan-translators what games have a chance to actually get officially licensed and most fan translators put notification of what they are translating way ahead of actual release to Mangagamer (and others) have plenty of time to get in contact with the original licensed owners and then try and contact the translator and ask them if they want an actual job or if they are willing to wait on a translation since they just negotiated with a company. I'm sure many of these translators would be happy to step aside or work with them if given the chance but why should they be the ones to ask it needs to be the other way around. 

 

The way that the big 3 generally announce acquisitions is a few times a year and this unfortunately does more harm than good in my opinion. If there is a game they have an interest in releasing that is being fan-translated they should announce their plans immediately and get in contact with the fan-translator asap. This is in part to let both the fan-translator and the fans know that the game will be getting a release. Too many times you see one of these western vn companies enter into a deal with the japanese market and we see only 1 or 2 games and nothing else...these aren't even the good games a lot of the time. Instead of being yeah we'll take whatever in the hopes of actually releasing the game we want they should draft up a plan and announce that yes it's possible. This would increase sales because people know rather than simply hope that a game has a chance of releasing. 

 

If we are to look at this as a consumer one will realize that that fan discs, spin-offs, older games, and ridiculously big company games are simply unlikely to ever get translated in the current market. We have a few and sales figures have shown that generally these do not sell overly well which is why we don't really see too many of them. The amount of visual novels released in a month in Japan could probably be close to the equivalen of visual novels released in Mangagamer, Jast, Sekai Project combined in a year (although this is very slowly increasing...it depends on whether or not the rate of translation continues). There are so many visual novels, that we are unlikely to ever get all of them and when we consider companies specifically push smaller games at first to try and build up hope for their better games to release one has to realize that the game you want others to play or want to play yourself probably won't ever get released. The actual companies prefer to release slightly older (but not too old) or newer (but not too new) games rather than anything else. Until we actually begin receiving simultaneous releases I don't believe we can say the visual novel company is anywhere close to being in a great location where we can just forget about fan-translators.

 

If one also considers the recent survey that people have requested time and time again many of the top requests are actually games that have fan-translations...this shows that people are willing to buy and support games they enjoy regardless of fan-translation patches or not. Mangagamer seems to be grouping all visual novel players into the category of pirates and that is a dangerous thing to do to your consumer base. Not everyone is going to pirate and the people that will would not have paid for whatever game you licensed to begin with. One also has to remember that not everyone has the ability to purchase these games from one of the Big 3. Fan-translations also see a surge in Japanese sales or at least will in the future. I see Fuwanovel in fact becoming a website that helps in this regard as well. People are willing to buy the games from Japan if there is a fan-translation for them and the only real issue at the moment is finding a good means to buy games at decent prices. If visual novels were sold cheaper to non-japanese markets they would probably see a huge support of people buying games. This would only happen though if people understand the language which not everyone is capable of or through fan-translations. 

 

I just can't help but see fan-translations as having the potential to do more good than harm. Yes it might cost some sales because someone reads a game via fan-translation and decide they have no need to buy it when it releases since they already played it but that's when these companies need to go the extra step. There is untapped potential in this. For example if a game getting released has a fan-translation patch bundle the game with whatever fan disc it eventually received as well. The fan discs are less likely to get fan-translations and this or bundling physical merchandise with a release could potentially increase the amount of people willing to pay for a game they've already played. Give the people who are not willing to buy a copy of the game because of previously reading it a reason to pick it up despite the fact. In many ways the clannad and grisaia kickstarters succeeded because of the added allure of extra merchandise with it and getting something different. The fan translation meanwhile has potential to grow in recognition and essentially is free marketing and people who liked the game will be interested in playing further additions to it. 

 

In many ways this all comes down to how to properly market these things and how to deal with the growing fandom in a way that puts both the company and the enthusiasm of the fans in a more positive light. Outright dismissing a large part of the fanbase and a potential workforce is not the way to go about endearing people to a particular business model and if the business model is failing it might be time to change how things are handled. 

[douggle]

My problem with the mangagamer post is A its inaccurate, and b incredibly condescending, also the timing on this coiincides with the release of the Majikoi patch so that negative impact comment totally feels like its directed at that, of course that is just my opinion, also they forget to mention there are companies that just won't work with the west. 

[sanahtlig]

Here's some uninformed speculation on MajiKoi:

Fan translation team announces MajiKoi patch is nearly finished.

JAST shows interest in licensing the game and contacts the fan group.

JAST contacts license holders.  License holders demand licensing fees that JAST is unwilling to pay, or have unfeasible expectations that presuppose huge success on Steam.

Fan group releases patch because negotiations failed or are dragging out.

[sarkasmus]

I don't see the problem with fantranslations.

There are translation of Mangas but they are still bought, there are translation on Animes but they are still bought, I think it's the same for VNs.

Most people would pay for the VN even if there is a Fantranslation and those who wouldn't are those who either can't buy them from their site or they would just pirate the official release. That's something you can see everywhere (Anime, Mangas, Videogames which aren't VNs, even books since Ebooks came up).

[Clephas]

Mangagamer's business model is a lot more intelligent than Jast's... but that is because JastUSA uses the Working Designs business model, which was common in the early-era game localization industry in general.  To be blunt, Jast is in a rut, and Mangagamer can't seem to figure out how to further evolve their own business model.  It is a good one at the base, but in the long run, they are going to have to figure out how to convert the 'continuous flow' of new VN fans into greater profit (regular sales, price reductions on their oldest titles, making them easier to access by allowing more payment methods, etc).  To be blunt, if there is one thing fanboys will do, it is spend money on their addictions if they have it. 

 

Piracy is a result of a lack of money, frankly (on the leecher side), in most cases.  Complaining about piracy is like thinking about how you can squeeze water out of solid granite... it isn't going to happen, because the people who pirate don't have money anyway, in most cases.  Of course, there are many who pirate then purchase... and there is a small but significant minority that really does have the money to buy but chooses not to. 

 

VN-fantranslators are simply a natural outgrowth of the old fansubber and manga fantranslator community (and I mean the really old one).  The only difference is that it is harder to impossible to make them irrelevant the way fansubbers were made with anime (through streaming sites and simulcasts) or with the massive growth of the domestic manga localization industry.  If a way is found to get a good translation out of a machine *laughs hilariously* or to rapidly translate VNs, almost as they come out for a relatively cheap price... then the fantranslators will become as marginalized as fansubbers have been.  Until then, complaining about fantranslators from localization companies is fairly meaningless. 

[sanahtlig]

Piracy is a result of a lack of money, frankly (on the leecher side), in most cases.  Complaining about piracy is like thinking about how you can squeeze water out of solid granite... it isn't going to happen, because the people who pirate don't have money anyway, in most cases.  Of course, there are many who pirate then purchase... and there is a small but significant minority that really does have the money to buy but chooses not to. . 

I disagree.  I think a significant proportion of pirates have money but spend it opportunistically.  These are the targets of DRM.  If they can't get it free and can't get it now, they'll buy.  Otherwise, they'll save their money for the next PS Vita game they want.  These people aren't very vocal about their inclinations because they don't give a damn about moral codes or such and have no interest in defending their actions.  They pirate because they can and it's easy.

[AlexZandria]

To be blunt, if there is one thing fangirls will do, it is spend money on their addictions if they have it. 

[zoom909]

I think so? MangaGamer expects everyone to run their possible fan projects through them first regardless if MG has a related partnership or not. And what about JAST and Sekai Project? Presumably they're also interested in acquiring new licenses. Anyone else we need to bow down and grovel to in order to get permission to translate something that has nothing to do with them? It's a really insulting position, to be honest. 

 

Well I basically agree with you in a case when it has nothing to do with them.  So let's disregard the vague stuff about fan patches in general and that it may hurt Japanese developers' overall opinion or whatever.  How could anyone ever be sure, so you'd have to stop all fan patches completely, which is unreasonable.

But now suppose we're inquiring about games that they are actually both willing and able to commericalize, then it'd be reasonable, right?  Assuming we could get a direct answer (after a reasonable amount of research time on the company's side, during which you could keep on translating):  Yes, we CAN and WILL commercialize your patch, so do not release it yourself, or no, we WILL NOT or CANNOT commercialize your patch, so you are free to do what you want (or realistically, as "free" as you were before)

And yes, I guess you would have to inquire of each company separately, but if they will all give a straight answer, what's the problem?  (I know that's a big "If")