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MangaGamer's Message to Fan-translators


solidbatman

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For the most part, I actually want to agree with MangaGamer in a lot of ways, but the issue I have is that while I do agree licensing VNs is important, ridding the world of fan translators is not okay. Japanese companies who create VNs hate the western market. Sure, we have released staple games like Clannad and Grisaia, but do you expect to see moege on the market anytime soon? Sadly most recent VN releases focus on moege; I have experienced it 1st hand with each release of VNs that occur every Friday at the end of a month in Japan. March 27th is another big release day for VNs, and every single game is a moege or nukige (I think there are about 5-6 releases).

I'm not sure moege means what you think it means.

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To be honest, I am neither anti nor pro-piracy...  so my answer to this thread is going to be perhaps a bit less emotionally or morally driven than either side.

 

When I was just a fanboy, waiting with mouth open for more translated stuff, I would have screamed with happiness no matter how the game got to me.  Now that I buy them in Japanese like crazy, I find myself immensely indifferent to the feelings of either side.  To be blunt, it is unlikely Mangagamer will ever put out more than eight VNs a year... and at least six of those are going to be nukige.   The ratio is actually quite logical, since the costs (both in time and money) of six nukige translations are roughly equivalent to that of two moege or one serious story-focused VN.  However, this means that 'serious' VN fans are generally left 'starving', no matter how many VNs are released in a year.  Yes, the ratio has gotten more in the favor of 'serious' VNs in recent years... but it is unlikely to ever tilt very far in that direction. 

 

What is worse is that Mangagamer has this consistent bad habit of choosing seemingly random VNs from a given company's lineup.  Ones that already have a solid, obsessed following here do sometimes get preference (ie. Eden*), but that is the exception, rather than the rule.  Some of the VNs they've chosen over the years to translate have made me tilt my head to the side quizzically or spew milk out through my nose (ignoring the nukige). 

 

I actually have no objection to fantls who hand over their scripts to companies like Mangagamer and Jast.  In fact, I think that is, in many ways, the most sensible way to do things, if they can manage to negotiate them into actually localizing a given VN.  I don't think very many people have a serious objection to this, either... though I do know some do.  The problem is, Mangagamer will only localize VNs by companies it has already partnered with and JastUSA is so slow about putting out its VNs (think half a decade) that it might as well not exist at all at times.  Most of the best companies aren't partnered with Mangagamer at all, which makes a lot of their arguments irrelevant, from a fanboy's perspective.

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And that's why instead of licensing games with fan translations you should focus on games that don't have fan translations.

It's obvious that if a game already has a patch, sales aren't going to be as high. Unless the game is insanely popular (Steins;Gate, Grisaia, etc), you should probably focus on delivering new things to people, not blame fan translators for impacting their sales when they were here first to begin with.

 

That's why I'm hoping to god MG doesn't follow the results for "what game you want to see licensed", because in that top 10 only two don't have a fan translation already.

 

I'm iffy on this. I don't think every fan translated piece should be officially translated but for a few of the bigger titles that will definitely sell in the US (I think fo F/S right off the bat) I would like to see them translated because I think they could bring in a bigger audience to VN players than a pirated copy with a fan translated patch could.

 

Other than the big names though I'd rather see new games be translated.

 

 

For the most part, I actually want to agree with MangaGamer in a lot of ways, but the issue I have is that while I do agree licensing VNs is important, ridding the world of fan translators is not okay. Japanese companies who create VNs hate the western market. Sure, we have released staple games like Clannad and Grisaia, but do you expect to see moege on the market anytime soon? Sadly most recent VN releases focus on moege; I have experienced it 1st hand with each release of VNs that occur every Friday at the end of a month in Japan. March 27th is another big release day for VNs, and every single game is a moege or nukige (I think there are about 5-6 releases).

 

Even when it's supposed to be about the story, it fails to do so. February 27th saw the release of Hitori Sensou, but even that was riddled with porn while it was being advertised. Asking Clephas about it, it's as if a game that was meant to be about the story failed to deliver on so many levels. I don't think he said the game was bad per say, but in the end, it wasn't the kind of "story" we expected from Looseboy (G-Senjou no Maou, Sharin no Kuni).

 

And it's not just moege that are the problem! Do you expect to see good written stories like Dies irae on shelves anytime soon? Probably not. In the end, it seems that while licensing VNs does help, ridding the world of fan translators as MangaGamer says seems like a bad decision because most fan translators translate moege, a market that a lot of companies don't delve into. Doing something for free requires time and effort, and since a lot of "decent" speaking Japanese people can translate moege, that's the market fan translators utilize; it's quick, it's easy, and even if the TL isn't the best you can easily cover it up with edits, which sadly every English speaker thinks they can do properly. Not only will game releases slow down for non-Japanese readers, but in the end most Japanese companies don't want their games to be licensed.

 

:C but like cute anime girls, people. I really hope that in the future Japanese companies feel better about letting us bring moege over here, but I don't really think it will change because US laws are stupid and I think some people consider it illegal child pornography over here.

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To be blunt, it is unlikely Mangagamer will ever put out more than eight VNs a year... and at least six of those are going to be nukige.   The ratio is actually quite logical, since the costs (both in time and money) of six nukige translations are roughly equivalent to that of two moege or one serious story-focused VN.  However, this means that 'serious' VN fans are generally left 'starving', no matter how many VNs are released in a year.  Yes, the ratio has gotten more in the favor of 'serious' VNs in recent years... but it is unlikely to ever tilt very far in that direction. 

 

They put out 16 last year if you include HuniePop and Sakura Spirit, if not they put out 14. Either way that is practically double what you claimed. Also if you look at the current in progress stuff most of it isn't nukige. Super heavy tiltage man

 

 

list of non-nukige planned this year:

Princess Evangile, NTY!!!, Oz Mafia, Kara no Shoujo 2, BokuTen – Why I Became An Angel, Da Capo 3, Higurashi re-translation, Gahkthun of the Golden Lightning, Eden*, and Fata morgana no Yakata

 

List of Nukiges in progress:

Forbidden Love with my Wife's Sister, Euphoria, Free Friends, Free Friends 2

 

 Super heavy tiltage man

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My question to MG:

"Regarding the former question, and the perceived negative role fan translations play:

Grisaia and Clannad was TL'd and available for years, yet the KSs were a huge success - most bkrs had probably already read both. Do you dsagree with this idea that many will pay if something is picked up for TL?"

 

will be interesting to see if they respond.

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My question to MG:

"Regarding the former question, and the perceived negative role fan translations play:

Grisaia and Clannad was TL'd and available for years, yet the KSs were a huge success - most bkrs had probably already read both. Do you dsagree with this idea that many will pay if something is picked up for TL?"

 

will be interesting to see if they respond.

Those two are invalid examples, clannad has a massive anime fanbase and the Grisaia kickstarter included the last two untranslated visual novels.

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Those two are invalid examples, clannad has a massive anime fanbase and the Grisaia kickstarter included the last two untranslated visual novels.

 

Of course it also has "nothing" to do with the fact MG would never touch titles like those~ (afterall, they have previously commented that they would stay away from anything Fan Tld, due to having to "compete" with the TL'd version (think Decay brought up that point in another thread).

 

Aslo, they would have considered them too high risk - or plain and simple they just couldn't afford them.

 

If you ask me, they are using Fan TLs like a scapegoat for their own shortcomings.

 

 

EDIT: and do you really think including the last two untranslated visual novels was what made it successful? if people really wanted to, they could have just waited for the eventual release and pirated it.

 

If you offer something people want, most will be willing to pay. There of course will always be those that cannot/will not pay, and seek other means - but for myself at least - I will pay for any title localized, even if I already read it.

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Another issue is that VNs that touch upon issues that are too alien or outside the norm are less likely to get translated... meaning that we are unlikely to see VNs like Semiramis no Tenbin (despite it being a Caramel Box game).  In addition, companies like Akabei and Alice Soft, which exclude non-Japanese IPs, are unlikely to agree to negotiate without someone on the outside 'poking' them by pulling something like NNL did with Minori.

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Of course it also has "nothing" to do with the fact MG would never touch titles like those~ (afterall, they have previously commented that they would stay away from anything Fan Tld, due to having to "compete" with the TL'd version (think Decay brought up that point in another thread).

 

Aslo, they would have considered them too high risk - or plain and simple they just couldn't afford them.

 

If you ask me, they are using Fan TLs like a scapegoat for their own shortcomings.

 

 

EDIT: and do you really think including the last two untranslated visual novels was what made it successful? if people really wanted to, they could have just waited for the eventual release and pirate it.

I just don't see why people keep harping on mangagamer for playing it "safe", they have their own niche in the visual novel market. Sekai Project deals mainly with titles with plot (story), mangagamer deals with titles with "plot" (nukige), and Jast.... well, Jast specializes in tormenting its' fanbase with delays. 

 

Actually I think the fact that it was on kickstarter in the first place helped alot, also you give people waay too much credit. There is a option for preordering pretty much every game nowadays, even though it is pretty unlikely that the game will be sold out on release day.

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I just don't see why people keep harping on mangagamer for playing it "safe", they have their own niche in the visual novel market. Sekai Project deals mainly with titles with plot (story), mangagamer deals with titles with "plot" (nukige), and Jast.... well, Jast specializes in tormenting its' fanbase with delays.

Actually I think the fact that it was on kickstarter in the first place helped alot, also you give people waay too much credit. There is a option for preordering pretty much every game nowadays, even though it is pretty unlikely that the game will be sold out on release day.

Pretty sure I sound like a broken record by now but most of the titles MG are currently working on ATM are not actually nukige c:

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Also if you look at the current in progress stuff most of it isn't nukige. 

 

 

Be very careful with that. Nukige takes a lot less time to translate, so for example Da Capo 3 was announced a long time ago but it won't be released until the end of the year. Nukige, on the other hand, will take just a couple of months. It's translated and edited very quickly with not much attention paid to the quality.

 

So you get more turn-over with nukige. Nukige titles will be released, and then more announced, so the number in progress may not change much but they'll be churning it out at a faster rate. At least that's what they did in the past, anyway.

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In addition, companies like Akabei and Alice Soft, which exclude non-Japanese IPs, are unlikely to agree to negotiate without someone on the outside 'poking' them by pulling something like NNL did with Minori.

You're conflating IP blocking with no interest in the Western market.  That's a dangerous assumption based on fanbase prejudices, similar to how people immediately assume that when fan translations are C&D'd the Japanese publisher responsible is being "xenophobic".  My point is that most Westerners don't understand the thought processes of Japanese IP holders, and they shouldn't pretend to.

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Be very careful with that. Nukige takes a lot less time to translate, so for example Da Capo 3 was announced a long time ago but it won't be released until the end of the year. Nukige, on the other hand, will take just a couple of months. It's translated and edited very quickly with not much attention paid to the quality.

So you get more turn-over with nukige. Nukige titles will be released, and then more announced, so the number in progress may not change much but they'll be churning it out at a faster rate. At least that's what they did in the past, anyway.

Still going to have faith. NTY!!! Is already out Princess Evangile has its release date this month, Kara no Shoujo 2 is translated and 1/3rd of the way through editing,Bokuton and Gahkthun are over 50% translated.

Currently I believe it will be Princess Evangile, Forbidden love with my wife's sister, Kara No Shoujo 2 and the Euphoria. 2/4 nukige but that would make 2/5 overall. I expect that BokuTen and Gahkthun will be in the next 2 out of 3 after that. So I'm pretty much anticipating 3/8 to be nukiges so far.

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I honestly don't like this attitude from MangaGamer. They got burned on ef not because it was fan translated first, but because they completely failed to adequately market it. ef was a lightly popular anime, they could have tried to get fans of the show to pay attention to the VN release, but they didn't. They could have tried to push it to fans of romance as it's a fairly serious romance title, but they didn't. They could have advertised it at common otaku sites like 4chan, but they didn't. They did literally no external advertising for it whatsoever and only told people about it through their own site and newsletters. No shit it failed. They now use this negative experience to campaign against fan translations in general, claiming they hurt the industry. The failings are on their end. When JAST is given a fan translation, they polish the hell out of it and release it better than ever before (the ef script was barely changed in the MG release) and advertise the hell out of it. You could see Saya no Uta ads at a lot of common otaku-frequented sites. MangaGamer should exercise some self-reflection before criticising others. 

 

Their message pretty much comes off as "please stop". Not "don't translate titles from our partners" but "don't release any complete patches for any VNs at all because it makes contract negotiations hard". Meanwhile, Doddler, their twitter idol, is working with Arudoc to release complete translations for multiple games, Maria is working on a complete Rance Quest fan patch, and Cafe ostensibly will finish Aoire Rinne some day. The behavior of their own staff goes against what they say. They should either get their own ducks in a row before standing on a soapbox or shut up, preferably the latter.

 

I will also say that fan translations obviously have very many benefits for the industry. They suggest that all fan translators only translate trials. I would have never read my first eroge, Fate/Stay Night, if there was only a trial patch available. I would never have given any eroge company a penny of my money if it wasn't for multiple complete translation patches that drew my attention. The industry is still so niche that it can't survive without a thriving fan scene. I can guarantee that MangaGamer would be nowhere if fan translations weren't around and they'd be in serious trouble in the future if all fan translations suddenly ceased. They may seem like an evil to MangaGamer, but at the very least they're a necessary evil as they provide the lifeblood of the industry.

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Those Ask.fm responses are mostly written by Kouryuu.  In general, you should take them as Kouryuu's stance on the matter.  I doubt he actually passes them by the rest of the staff before posting, unlike posts on the official staff blog.  This guy isn't a PR or marketing major.  He's a translator who got shoehorned into picking up the pieces of a company that was falling apart.  Give him a bit of slack.

 

Decay's points on advertising are valid, but on the other hand given MG's model (of no advertising), their arguments are also valid.  In an environment with no advertising and no Steam, fan translations probably hurt the sales potential of a given title.  You can point blame wherever you want; that's simply an evidence-based statement.

 

My own opinion is that MG probably should have reflected on this statement a bit more before making it public.  I think this is an instance of not seeing the forest for the trees.  Fan translation plays an important role in the current market, and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.

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