Tay Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Hey everybody, Over the past week or so the LC has been discussing site funding. What follows is a brief overview of the site funding plan. Money is always an uncomfortable topic, but I’ll do my best to be brief and straightforward about it. TLDR version: We're going to experiment with income sources to cover hosting fees, and any extra money we bring in will be re-invested into the site. This will include some experiments with ads. If ads or other income experiments don't pay off, we'll drop them. Long version: Site Expenses: Monthly hosting Building a "rainy day" hosting fund (initially 6 months, then 12 months) Pay off site debts Site Improvements (see next point) Planned/Desired Site Improvements: Commissioning special/authoritative content and special projects as a site draw Purchase site expansions (new themes for reviews/forums; 2 specific plugins for Fuwazette, etc.) Cover the difference in discounted (not free) VN reviews games copies (though so far devs we've talked to have agreed to giving review copies free of charge) Examples of Re-Investing into Fuwanovel Authoritative/special articles and guides from experts (for the academies (new players, TL and creation), special news projects, etc.) New forums themes (esp a dark theme) A new reviews site theme (gauge just ain't doin' it) Some commercial plugins for the Fuwazette Covering the difference of discounted-but-not-free review copies of games Coding for auto-patchers Small rewards for easy but time-intensive work (Filling in back-reviews of partner blogs on the reviews hub, etc.) Contests / providing the reward for a forums contest run by somebody awesome And lots more Site Income Sources (Trial Basis): Tastefully-placed ads (as few as possible per-page, will be removed if income isn't worth it), Affiliate links to devs My personal funds Site income will first go to the next month's hosting, then the rainy day fund, then repaying past debts, then re-investing the rest into site improvements (see the improvements section above). Money is Messy I know very well that money can poison a community – especially a volunteer fan community. The only way to prevent self-destruction is to be clear up-front about how we’re going to handle the site finances (1. Immediate Hosting; 2. Hosting Emergency Fund; 3. Re-invest in the site). The goal will be to re-funnel all of the community success back into building the community. Just FYI: at present there's no way to know how much we’ll be bringing in each month, but we’ll find out soon enough and we'll adjust the plan as necessary. Thanks for your time. The floor is yours if you have something you'd like to say/discuss. Tay Gibberish 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimossab Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Uhm, have you tried to open donations for people that actually want to help you guys? Most people (probably over 90%) wouldn't even bother to read something about donations, but I'm pretty sure some people would actually like to help you guys by donating some money, it won't be much, but oh well, donation is donation, it's never too little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 Uhm, have you tried to open donations for people that actually want to help you guys? Most people (probably over 90%) wouldn't even bother to read something about donations, but I'm pretty sure some people would actually like to help you guys by donating some money, it won't be much, but oh well, donation is donation, it's never too little. Good point, and we do have a lot of people who would be willing to pitch in. I'm holding off on donations for a few reasons (chiefly: wanting to make sure our legal footing is solid and donations won't cause anybody any grief), but that's certainly a possibility once we have our ducks in a row. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanahtlig Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 The problem with banner ads is that savvy users will avoid / block them, while the unsavvy users (especially new users) may find them obtrusive and go somewhere else. Affiliate links are definitely a good idea. I don't see any downside there. I think a good compromise would be paid features: promotional articles that encourage people to buy games that you think the community or a segment of the community would like. You might be able to get JAST / Mangagamer to pony up for these, plus they'd drive affiliate link traffic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flutterz Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Good point, and we do have a lot of people who would be willing to pitch in. I'm holding off on donations for a few reasons (chiefly: wanting to make sure our legal footing is solid and donations won't cause anybody any grief), but that's certainly a possibility once we have our ducks in a row. Just curious, are getting ad revenue and accepting donations different legally? Also people charging for review copies that will (well, at least in theory) give their product exposure rubs me the wrong way, but that's neither here nor there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 The problem with banner ads is that savvy users will avoid / block them, while the unsavvy users (especially new users) may find them obtrusive and go somewhere else. Affiliate links are definitely a good idea. I don't see any downside there. I think a good compromise would be paid features: promotional articles that encourage people to buy games that you think the community or a segment of the community would like. You might be able to get JAST / Mangagamer to pony up for these. Banner ads are tacky, and none of the Fuwa sites will have header ads. I pretty much hate them. RE: Publisher/dev agreements -- I'm still in the early stages of dev outreach (though we do have a few set up), but that's definitely where I hope to go. I'd much rather promote VN devs than use an ad service. Just curious, are getting ad revenue and accepting donations different legally? Also people charging for review copies that will (well, at least in theory) give their product exposure rubs me the wrong way, but that's neither here nor there. RE: Differences b/t ads and donations -- yes, mainly because they're taxed differently by the US and most Western nations. That said, when I say I'm holding off because I want to make sure we do donations right, I'm definitely erring on the side of caution. Making sure users are safe is pretty much what led us to this point in the first place. RE: Review copies -- it's handled differently by various companies. Some companies will offer review subscriptions, and others will just give you the games. Generally what you "get" is determined by your traffic. Fuwa and the Fuwa blogs get a lot of traffic, so I'm not too concerned about this point. So far all the devs I've talked to have been happy to offer review partnerships with no costs to us. sanahtlig 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakamutt Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 God I'd feel pretty bad about promotional articles. If it's interesting enough it should go up regardless, if possibly less promotionary. I suppose something like MG's tester's corners for non-nukige wouldn't be horrible though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanahtlig Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 God I'd feel pretty bad about promotional articles. If it's interesting enough it should go up regardless, if possibly less promotionary. I suppose something like MG's tester's corners for non-nukige wouldn't be horrible though. MG's bestselling titles are their nukige. Sorry, but your articles will be praising the divinity of the urinating lolis in Imouto Paradise. Rose 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimossab Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Good point, and we do have a lot of people who would be willing to pitch in. I'm holding off on donations for a few reasons (chiefly: wanting to make sure our legal footing is solid and donations won't cause anybody any grief), but that's certainly a possibility once we have our ducks in a row. I'm not into laws and those will vary from country to country, but, I don't see anything against donations, for fuwanovel. It's a non profit organization. As long as money don't exceed a certain limit, I don't think you have to declare those to the goverment. (Based on what I read on paypal about donations, but of course you have to base yourself in your country's law). Through paypal donations the users are pretty much secured, because they're free to give you money, you're the one taxed for receiving that money and not the users for donating (I believe, once again that must be based on the law). Well, since I'm not into law, I'll just shut up. I just wanted to post because of the following: Another way, would be creating a youtube account for fuwa and make video walkthroughs for vns, discussions, whatever you think would be good. That would make fuwa more recognized around the world and if it gets alot of videos you would start receiving money for it. Though that is more like a long term solution than a short term and it's not certain, but certainly worth a try (at least for the spreading the word of fuwa). kthxbai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flutterz Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 RE: Differences b/t ads and donations -- yes, mainly because they're taxed differently by the US and most Western nations. That said, when I say I'm holding off because I want to make sure we do donations right, I'm definitely erring on the side of caution. Making sure users are safe is pretty much what led us to this point in the first place. I'm definitely for erring on the side of caution, it would be even more depressing if Fuwa got into legal trouble after having gotten rid of torrents. RE: Review copies -- it's handled differently by various companies. Some companies will offer review subscriptions, and others will just give you the games. Generally what you "get" is determined by your traffic. Fuwa and the Fuwa blogs get a lot of traffic, so I'm not too concerned about this point. So far all the devs I've talked to have been happy to offer review partnerships with no costs to us. Yeah, I understand why they do it, it just rubs me the wrong way, which is why I said it was neither here nor there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakamutt Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 MG's bestselling titles are their nukige. Sorry, but your articles will be praising the divinity of the urinating lolis in Imouto Paradise. I know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 God I'd feel pretty bad about promotional articles. If it's interesting enough it should go up regardless, if possibly less promotionary. I suppose something like MG's tester's corners for non-nukige wouldn't be horrible though. Just to clarify: I was more or less talking about ad/monetary partnerships, and not pimping out Zaka. Doubtless we'll start to put up more promotional materials, but that'll be a function of brand-new access to dev PR feeds (which will give us advance information about titles with assets we can publish on the blogs), not paid-for blog content. Those sorts of decisions are something Zaka and I will have to iron out, and knowing him I have no doubt we'll find a good solution which keeps our souls and freedoms intact : P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceris Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 When ads go live, I'll make sure to whitelist Fuwanovel on my adblocker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nayleen Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 ... good solution which keeps our souls and freedoms intact : P Yesss, muh freedoms be safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solidbatman Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 If I dont get pop up ads for male enhancement pills, I will consider this endeavour a failure. Emi and Stray Cat 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetterEmperor Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 We need ads for generic Russian Viagra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solidbatman Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 We need ads for generic Russian Viagra. Fuck that. Ads for Russian mail order brides! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyrt Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 If anyone is not aware that running a site costs money they should just get out. I think it might be a good idea to try hosting ads from Jast USA, Mangagamer, sekai project and maybe some from rightstuf or other anime related places. The only problem is that i have no idea if these places even pay well for ad revenue. The biggest concern about hosting ads is trying to host relevant ads. I swear to god those ads that automatically play audio/dialogue are some of the most annoying things in existence. It might go a long way to creating a youtube channel for fuwanovel where we do actual video reviews, game news, etc...might not be big at the start but it could grow into something bigger maybe? Monthly hosting - Any chance we could get an idea of cost? Pay off site debts - exactly how in debt is the site? Commissioning special/authoritative content and special projects as a site draw - Can you expand and explain this a little better. Do you mean like merchandise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 RE: Ads with JAST/J-list/MG/etc. -- just FYI: those companies don't normally do ads in the traditional sense of the word. They have affiliate programs where we can put up links or banners/ad-like images, and we'll receive a percentage (8-10%) of any purchases made using one of those links. If people use the affiliate links, then it's possible we may not need ads at all. Either way, the affiliate programs aren't partnerships/special agreements with Fuwa, it's a fairly standard industry tactic. Monthly hosting - Any chance we could get an idea of cost? Pay off site debts - exactly how in debt is the site? Commissioning special/authoritative content and special projects as a site draw - Can you expand and explain this a little better. Do you mean like merchandise? 1. Hosting costs will scale with the site, but it'll be >$50 per month plus periodic licensing fees for various pieces of software 2. Just a few hundred dollars. This "debt" is mostly adhering to a lawyer's suggestions regarding paying for assets/coding and some unexpected, recent licensing fees. 3. Not so much merchandise as authoritative guides, articles, blog posts, etc. we can put up which will draw in traffic. Ex: authoritative guides for new TL groups for each of the most common game engines; in-depth buying VN importing guide; a somewhat hush-hush special JP VN news program; if we make an autopatching platform, in-depth guides for coders to know how to use it, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanahtlig Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 RE: Ads with JAST/J-list/MG/etc. -- just FYI: those companies don't normally do ads in the traditional sense of the word. That's not entirely true. J-List has banner ads on some major pirate hubs, for example. Mangagamer...well they're not exactly known for their effective marketing practices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 That's not entirely true. J-List has banner ads on some major pirate hubs, for example. Mangagamer...well they're not exactly known for their effective marketing practices. Re J-List -- I'm pretty sure those are also affiliate links, not ads. It's still kinda fishy since they don't allow piracy in affiliates, but hey, they get to make the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtraMana Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Affiliate links are probably the way to go. I use them on my site. I've tried Play Asia but gave up on them in favour of amazon since with Play Asia you are promoting niche' products at a pretty poor rate of return. But a site like fuwanovel that is superniche' and gets a lot of traffic (relative to mine) might do better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havoc Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 i see no problem with ads, as long as they dont make noise. (no ads with sounds, god those are annoying as you cant turn blind to them) While i do use adblock myself, i only really use it for youtube as that sites ads have gotten downright poisinois. And the donations is a great idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanahtlig Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Re J-List -- like <censored>? I'm pretty sure those are also affiliate links, not ads. It's still kinda fishy since they don't allow piracy in affiliates, but hey, they get to make the rules. There's banner ads on major pirate hubs for Japanese content. Illegal anime sites and such. Yes, they're technically affiliate links. Well, let me define my usage for you. Banner ad: Broad-based advertising that targets all users of a given site. These ads can't be disabled (without addons or other tinkering) and you'll inevitably stumble on them in the course of normal browsing. I consider these "traditional ads". Affiliate link (my usage): A link, text or graphical, which is located in a particular area of the site. They might be grouped together under an "Affiliates" section. The link might be embedded in a review for the game. These links are highly targeted and are either optional to view (Affiliates section) or they could be considered genuine added content (they give the user an easy way to locate or purchase a title that they were likely interested in anyway because they're reading a review for the game). I consider the "affiliate links" on major pirate hubs, such as these anime piracy sites, to be traditional banner ads. My point is that the specifics of how the tool works don't matter (to users). It's how the tool is used. You could blame the pirate sites for the "bad" usage, or you could blame J-List. Either way, it doesn't make any difference to the user: obtrusive advertising is obtrusive. Users will blame whoever they want, not necessarily with any rhyme or reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 I consider the "affiliate links" on major pirate hubs, such as these anime piracy sites, to be traditional banner ads. Fair enough. I've been so invested in this for the last few days I didn't even realize how pedantic my usage was : P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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