Mangagamer Cease & Desist Da Capo III fan translation

[Kuroishi]

I am also quite late to the party but I wanted to add a few things in to this. With copyright, in this case, it is a derivative work. So by that, it is in violation of copyright. In the US anyway. But there is several exceptions to the rule. If it is done for personal use. That is allowed within fair use of a product as it is not distributed at all. Also, this can also be skirted if the translation was being done for the individuals practice of the language, thus an educational purpose. Another factor is that it would be up to Manga gamer to prove, upon release of the fan translation, that it posed a threat to their bottom line. If there are no links provided or anything allowing you to obtain the product directly and required a legit copy of the game, that would fall upon them.

Another factor is that if there is a complete translation, and Manga Gamer is dragging their heels, And Aaeru is indeed not concerned about credit of the translation, she can enter into contract with the original creators in regards to the translation specifically as a separate derivative work and either obtain permission or something else depending on the decision of the original creator.

Just a little food for thought.

[sanahtlig]

Also, 1) this can also be skirted if the translation was being done for the individuals practice of the language, thus an educational purpose. Another factor is that 2) it would be up to Manga gamer to prove, upon release of the fan translation, that it posed a threat to their bottom line. If there are no links provided or anything allowing you to obtain the product directly and required a legit copy of the game, that would fall upon them.

Another factor is that if there is a complete translation, and Manga Gamer is dragging their heels, And Aaeru is indeed not concerned about credit of the translation, 3) she can enter into contract with the original creators in regards to the translation specifically as a separate derivative work and either obtain permission or something else depending on the decision of the original creator.

1) This falls under the "do not distribute" point you made earlier.

2) If we're talking letter of the law (and I don't think anyone but you is), then Mangagamer and Circus have nothing to prove. Japanese companies have sent C&Ds to fan translation groups for titles they clearly have no intention of localizing in the forseeable future.

3) Circus just sent her a C&D. It's rather unlikely they're going to turn around and give Aaeru permission to release her patch for free like she wants.

[EastN3]

All I have to say is, since when did piracy go from cool peg legged guys on ships to sweaty Cheetos dusted basement dwellers?

Joking aside, I'm not too sure who is right. None of us have Mangagamers' exact sales charts(I don't believe, at least) so none of us can say for sure how much of a hit they take from this. Niche markets like these are usually built off fan loyalty, so I find it hard to believe everyone's going to cancel their order of a (boxed, keep that in mind, fans love merch) copy of DCIII because Aearu decided to make a fan translation. However, I also don't believe a moderate sized business like Mangagamer would even care unless they have seen some serious losses due to these translations. At the end of the day, I think the best choice would be to realize when to pick your battles and let it go. This won't stop Aearu or anyone else from translating. Unless you're one of those "fight the power" activist types. In which case, go ahead, fight a legal battle. I would.....but I'm really lazy. So nevermind.

[sanahtlig]

Mangagamer's bestselling title sold around 2000 copies. They're not exactly a "moderate-sized business", especially where game companies are concerned.

Warez is a big problem for Mangagamer. Mangagamer recently discussed the impact on sales.

Basically, most games our games have a long-tail rate of sales per day, which is measurable on one-hand (sometimes this applies per week, not per day). When a crack is released, the rate of sales immediately plummets to this base long-tail rate of sales. Granted, the rate of sales naturally decreases after release, and fairly rapidly too. So, if a crack is released a month or two after the initial release (depending on the starting popularity of the game), when it's already entered this long-tail naturally, the impact is minimal. But when the crack is released during the first week when the rate of sales are at their highest? It can easily kill a game, and make sequels and expansions of that franchise unfeasible.

That's part of why Boob Wars did so extremely well for us upon its release--since it took so long for a crack to be completed, it was actually able to enjoy its normal and natural period of sales for the most part, rather than being prematurely plucked like almost every other title. This is why you'll see Doddler and other members of our staff asking people to at least wait before releasing a crack--those first two weeks make a tremendous difference.

http://forums.mangagamer.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1349&p=25414#p25412

Many of their customers appear to be impulsive opportunists--they freeload what they can and buy what they can't freeload at the moment the mood strikes them. Behavior like this is why Mangagamer has shifted to a nukige-focused release schedule--such games attract less attention and therefore don't get cracked as quickly. Unfortunately, the market dynamics for eroge in the West appear to punish excellence and reward mediocrity--and warez is squarely to blame. The market will never go anywhere if this dynamic continues.

[RusAnon]

Unfortunately, the market dynamics for eroge in the West appear to punish excellence and reward mediocrity--and warez is squarely to blame. The market will never go anywhere if this dynamic continues.

Steam proved this to be wrong. You just have to be reasonable with your prices and piracy will stop to be an issue.

If you charge 50 USD for VN, blame your own insane price policies.

[Down]

Steam proved this to be wrong. You just have to be reasonable with your prices and piracy will stop to be an issue.

If you charge 50 USD for VN, blame your own insane price policies.

Steam is on a totally different scale though.

Mangagamer can't lower their prices to 20-30 USD because even if it meant a regular sale rate the sales are on a scale small enough that they won't make any profit. The price isn't random, it's just there's note enough people out there to support a lower price.

[Steve]

Steam proved this to be wrong. You just have to be reasonable with your prices and piracy will stop to be an issue.

If you charge 50 USD for VN, blame your own insane price policies.

Steam is on a totally different scale though.

Mangagamer can't lower their prices to 20-30 USD because even if it meant a regular sale rate the sales are on a scale small enough that they won't make any profit. The price isn't random, it's just there's note enough people out there to support a lower price.

more like 50usd for 5+ years old VN. But I already said that somewhere, maybe even in this topic - you will never see 5 years old game on steam for that price. If they want us to pay that money they need to work harder and release it max 2 or 3 months after JP release.

look at this: http://www.mangagame...aa881bd3117c693

they want 50usd for a game from 2006, that is 7 years old (and the english patch is not even done yet) and it isn't even that long. With all routes and everything, CG hunting and such, it can be maybe 30-40 hours. Key releases are often ~200 hours for 100% completion and you get them for 100usd on day 1 in JP.

And you might say that it doesn't matter if it is old or not but I tell you hell it does - you are being deprived about all the hype on release, you might wanna buy a fig from VN but they stopped making it years ago when there was no English patch.

Its the same with everything, when there is new movie like for example the Dark Knight last year, everyone was talking about it, internet was full off it and thus everyone wanted so badly to see it - and they went to the cinema and did. People want to see it so they can be part of the hype. And this fan hype is also so good for advertisement.

And all that is what MG does wrong, too high prices, too late release -> not worth the money. And then they see bad sell results and try to put the blame on piracy or other factors that cannot be proven and thus some people believe them.

There are no piracy numbers as even if there is "this" many downloads, it can be people who don't even open it, just download it because its there and never even intend to play it. Or they just download it as a demo, try first mission and uninstall and you would be surprised how many people do that, even with aaa games - and again, blame it on the company not providing trial or demo, maybe they try it, like it... but since they already have pirated copy they finish it, because today game companies just don't release demos and not that many people, especially in Europe, can afford to buy a game blindly, most people I know can afford 1 maybe 2 games a month, if the company doesn't let them try the game but pirated release does, guess what they will choose.

But even these "pirates" are willing to pay the company if they think the money is worth it.

Just look at counter strike, non-steam servers were created so soon after release and they were working just fine, people could play, connect to servers in browser or via IP. But the steam release, although the game was the same, was superior - you were able to connect to a friend without asking him what server he is on or what IP and such, you saw who is playing where, you had better support for maps and mods you wanted to play - and I don't know a single person who didn't buy CS and ever played it - even people who played on non-steam went for the steam version right away - because it was better.

TLDR: gives us a good game, working, don't delay it, don't have it broken and don't fuck with customers and we will pay you the money it is worth it.

If you show the pirates that you are bad, they will not want to become your customers.

For example by shutting down their favorite translation and not even announcing your own.

So many people already said to me that they did buy MG games and they were going to buy others... until this C&D

now that's not how you get customers to pay you

[Guest]

lol that picture

[Down]

The price isn't randomly decided. No matter how old the game is, they HAVE to sell it 50 USD because otherwise they won't make profit, it's just that simple. The number of sells you gain versus the amount of money you lose when you reduce the price is not worth it according to their estimations. Not that those estimations are necessarily true, but they do have more data to process that than us.

And about delays: translating a VN 2-3 months after its release is insanely hard. 6 months seem like a bare minimum for a game of sufficient length. At which point the age of the game doesn't matter anymore.

Lastly, about the C&D: how can they make it another way? Just put yourself in their shoes, if the TL comes out their bought license now has value zero. Of course they'll try to do something. I don't say it was a good thing or it was a smart move, but they didn't have much of a choice.

[Steve]

Well I don't have much info about MG or what people work there.... but

The price isn't randomly decided. No matter how old the game is, they HAVE to sell it 50 USD because otherwise they won't make profit, it's just that simple.

then why picking so old games?

And about delays: translating a VN 2-3 months after its release is insanely hard. 6 months seem like a bare minimum for a game of sufficient length. At which point the age of the game doesn't matter anymore.

its insanely hard for a fan TL group composed of people that actually need to do something else to eat, they have to have a job to be able to translate.

not sure how MG does it but look at this, you can have 1 translator being paid less a week, working 5 hours a week and doing it 3 years or how long do they take... or you can use the same budget that would be spent over those 3 years and pay multiple translators, working 30-40 hours a week, finishing the TL in 6-10 weeks and earning much more money because the game is actually relevant.

Lastly, about the C&D: how can they make it another way? Just put yourself in their shoes, if the TL comes out their bought license now has value zero. Of course they'll try to do something. I don't say it was a good thing or it was a smart move, but they didn't have much of a choice.

I don't know........... how about... actually announcing and working on the project, that they can do?

Its a year since DCIII was released, you said 6 months at minimum, this is double the time.

Ok give them that year and even one month on top - and again, I don't know how it works in MG and how good relation and communication they have with Japanese publishers - but they should probably know that Circus are doing extra chapter and x rated version, why not work on the original game for that year and now when the x-rated version is done, waiting to be printed on DVDs, why not get the new scripts there, quickly do them for that extra month and then release the x-rated version and the extra chapter non-h version at the same time as JP release.

You can get preorder for the x-rated JP version for about ~70usd in a good deal and its a boxed copy so DL version of the english one could be for 50usd and still very much profitable.

And ask around how many people would buy it (I probably would if it was the x-rated one), I think many more people than some of their other 20 years old projects...

And that brings us the the conclusion that has been mentioned here sooo many times:

If they are not able to compete with a person who is doing translation for free in her spare time, they are doing it WRONG.

And if they are not able to talk to the JPs and get these kinds of deals (pre-release version so they can start TL earlier etc) then it is their incompetence to blame, and not fan translators or "pirates" or whoever else they blame.

[sanahtlig]

then why picking so old games?

This is honestly such an arbitrary criterium of quality that I'm surprised you're harping on it.

It isn't about difficulty of translating quickly. Japanese developers don't WANT their games localized soon after Japanese release? Why? Because the localized game ($50) undercuts their sales of the Japanese version ($100)! The localized version is also often demosaiced, which is important to some people, and illegal in Japan. While this may be irrelevant to you, some developers may worry that the localized game will be reverse imported (or pirated), Japanese citizens will get arrested, and this will spark a controversy.

I don't know........... how about... actually announcing and working on the project, that they can do?

Its a year since DCIII was released, you said 6 months at minimum, this is double the time.

See above. Don't expect a timely release when you're paying half price, especially in a franchise known for constant re-releases. Mangagamer has stated that they won't start work until the final version is released. Why? Because customers complain when they can't have the latest and greatest version, but they don't want to pay extra for it.

[Secchan]

It isn't about difficulty of translating quickly. Japanese developers don't WANT their games localized soon after Japanese release? Why? Because the localized game ($50) undercuts their sales of the Japanese version ($100)! The localized version is also often demosaiced, which is important to some people, and illegal in Japan. While this may be irrelevant to you, some developers may worry that the localized game will be reverse imported (or pirated), Japanese citizens will get arrested, and this will spark a controversy.

See above. Don't expect a timely release when you're paying half price, especially in a franchise known for constant re-releases. Mangagamer has stated that they won't start work until the final version is released. Why? Because customers complain when they can't have the latest and greatest version, but they don't want to pay extra for it.

Most of the sales in Japan for these types of games are on the first 3 days of release. It's very unlikely that the fans that buy the game would want to wait over half a year, if they want to play it they will get it on release day. If they do reverse import that would have to mean the person is confident enough to read it in English. Although some people are probably confident enough to do that, I think most of them are not.

If you look at the release dates between JP D.C. and English D.C., they are about 4 - 5 years apart. Mangagamer should start translating to tell fans it exist but they don't have to release outdated versions. When new versions like R/X come out they can just continue their project from there. 90% of the scripts are the same so it would be simple to just transfer what is already translated. If they wait until the final version to start translating that would mean we would get D.C III 5 - 7 years later and by that time D.C. IV would already be announced or out.

[Steve]

Don't expect a timely release when you're paying half price.

How is it half a price? Yeah the games have "retail recommended price" 100usd but half of it goes to the distributor if he sells it for that price, thats why you see them like "preorder now for only 80usd" deals, you can use more discount codes (usually even 20%), they have to pay the printing company, the boxes usually contain something little extra, pat the mail service for delivery (as it is free across japan - its not free for the distributor, they pay the fee for the customer because they still make profit from it) and many other fees connected with it.

So 50usd for DL English only version is very reasonable price even for new release - no fees for them, only some download server. It is people who would normally not buy it, buying it now.

And if you think people would reverse import English version because it is little cheaper, ask some of the JP vn readers if they really want to read it in English... well they don't. And they love their boxed copies too which on western market are becoming obsolete.

And as Secchan said, releasing it 1-3 months after the release, no Japanese person would wait that long because of 10 or even 20 usd for version that is not in their language.

I can't even wait a week for EU release of a game already out in the US and use VPN to bypass the release check and whatnot.

So even if MG of whoever got deal with developer and could start TL before JP release and then release it 1 month after the JP one, there would be almost no loss for JP market yet huge boost for western market.

You just see the western community as people that never want to pay for stuff they like and bunch of pirates sailing the international waters and I don't know what else. Then explain why so many people pay extra fee to import games from Japan, they pay the import company so much more than what they would pay in Japan, they import figs, artbooks and pay extra expensive shipping across half a planet.

Why are so many people willing to put 100+usd on KS of a game that will be released 3 years down the line, just for some extra posters or developer signature on box or whatever.

Because even western people care, even western people want to have fun and good quality fresh entertainment.

So if what you offer is bad and you treat your customers and potential customers as criminals and whatnot, then don't expect to have awesome results.

[sanahtlig]

Most of the sales in Japan for these types of games are on the first 3 days of release. It's very unlikely that the fans that buy the game would want to wait over half a year, if they want to play it they will get it on release day. If they do reverse import that would have to mean the person is confident enough to read it in English. Although some people are probably confident enough to do that, I think most of them are not.

Correct, but the problem is more social (what people would think) than practical (sales would be cannibalized). A company can't justify simultaneously charging $100 for its target audience and $50 for a small niche overseas audience. The Japanese customer base wouldn't be very happy about that, any more than Western customers would be happy about suddenly having to pay $100 for all future releases. This problem is currently surmounted by waiting for the title to fade out of the limelight before being re-released for overseas audiences at a deep discount.

If you look at the release dates between JP D.C. and English D.C., they are about 4 - 5 years apart. Mangagamer should start translating to tell fans it exist but they don't have to release outdated versions. When new versions like R/X come out they can just continue their project from there. 90% of the scripts are the same so it would be simple to just transfer what is already translated. If they wait until the final version to start translating that would mean we would get D.C III 5 - 7 years later and by that time D.C. IV would already be announced or out.

Why would you set out with the intention to halt a project midstream? That doesn't make any sense from a business standpoint. You're looking to extract collateral from Mangagamer--make them give a downpayment so we can be assured that they'll actually release the game since they C&D'd it. But why would it be in their best interest to do this?

[Steve]

Why would you set out with the intention to halt a project midstream? That doesn't make any sense from a business standpoint. You're looking to extract collateral from Mangagamer--make them give a downpayment so we can be assured that they'll actually release the game since they C&D'd it. But why would it be in their best interest to do this?

Why would they halt midstream, they can just continue doing it and then just add the additional script which they should be trying to get before the official release so they can start working on it sooner.

And in their best interest should be full satisfaction of customers and fans of the game, if they are not able to satisfy customers while being paid money to do exactly that, yet a person who receives no money for it, does it in spare time and from own initiative is able satisfy them, they should probably realize they are doing it the wrong way and should try to change themselves, not the world around.

[sanahtlig]

You can't (constructively) criticize the businesses practices of an industry based on the concept of intellectual property while ignoring the existence of IP. Mangagamer doesn't sell translations. They sell translated GAMES. Fan translators provide translations. They don't provide games. You're comparing apples and oranges. If you want to compare apples and apples, you should factor in the cost of importing the Japanese games. By calling for the eradication of IP, it's people like YOU that are calling for the world to change, not Mangagamer.

[Steve]

Oh maybe I'm not that knowledgeable when it comes to VN business as I am new, but I've been moving around games and localization since I had my first computer (and I took part in some fan translations to CZ as well as made subtitles for american TV series and I have friends who even fan translated books from english).

There was no multilanguage release back then for PC games, it was all fan translation - the same way as it is now with VNs. It was in the time when only one person in the school had CD burner - and since then the companies found their way to localize it for money while also having good business practices.

Back than it was mostly fan groups and also game magazines doing the translation and they were releasing the translation for the game in those magazines on the CDs (which was also the only source of any other free software such as adobe acrobat so people can read PDF manuals on game CD's because internet access was very limited).

And you know what happened? 1 person got the original game (that is one sale), burned it and included the translation patch there or pre-patched it. And then sold it for about double the price of empty CD just for his effort and the CD he had to buy. That's how it worked, do you see similarities now? That is what fuwanovel does, fuwanovel is the one schoolmate who can afford the games and CD burner, fuwanovel is the one guy who loves games and tries to spread them between other friends - because for them there is no other way or very hard way to play the game. Games were considered giant waste of time and nobody would ever think it would get so common like it is now, except us games who wished for it and pushed it.

And then came smart companies who saw there actually is market for games in central Europe and not many people back then knew English, because it wasnt pushed as it is now that kids learn english in kindergarten, I had my first english lessons when I was about 11 but I was already somehow understanding it and we started learning how to say cat and dog... People from my generation and older who were not into English from the beginning can't now understand English and they still require game translations. So the percentage of people who can now speak English here might be about the same as English native people understanding Japanese.

Back to the smart companies - read about CD Projekt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cdp.pl

And if you would google some other info about them, you could see more.

How from a small publisher specializing on localization to Polish and later to my language too, they made it to be one of the most respected game developer in the current gaming scene as well as owner of very popular shop website GoG.

By following few simple rules: they are the ones who need to be nice to the customers, they are the ones who want to impress customers.

No DRM and they are still running, how is it possible in the current full of pirates world? Maybe because even pirates buy good games if they have good business model.

Witcher 2 got pirated so many times and they still earned so much money that they have Witcher 3, how are they doing it, magic? No magic, just being good company even pirates wanted to support by buying the game.

They actually paid good money and put so much effort into porting W2 to consoles and it was huge success, how so they could afford it when so many other companies can't?

Well they knew if they make good port people will actually buy it.

And in the early 2000's here and in late 90's in Poland they were not releasing localization for games 5 years later, they were releasing it when the hype was still there - to the niche market that video games had, just like visual novels in the west have now.

And you didn't hear them complaining about free translations, they just made it better and faster, they weren't complaining about people burning CDs, they made it easier to get for a good price for us, they weren't complaining about the market being small - THEY MADE IT BIGGER.

You see, exact opposite of MG, how do you expect MG to become successful with that attitude they show "oh people don't pay lets just screw it and do nukige instead of trying to improve our service", "lets not be better than fan TL, lets apply laws so we can be the ONLY tl", "lets sell old games for a price of a new game"...

So yeah, maybe you're right, I don't have enough knowledge about how it works in VN market now but I saw exactly how it worked in games market.

I don't know if you are English or not but if you are you never could have seen this happen and it is first time for you and you think its something new they need to figure out how to do (commercial localization from JP to EN), but in fact it has been happening here the whole time, from English to other languages. CD Projekt is mostly polish, czech and slovak but I am sure if you ask some other non-english people from other countries of Europe, they can tell you about other companies who made their business from successful localization and it worked for them.

People here want stuff that English people make even if they don't know English. We want stuff that Japanese people make even if we don't understand Japanese.

And translation of media has been here since the beginning of media, books, movies, series, EVERYTHING is being translated and it works and is profitable - why should it be different with VNs?

[Secchan]

Correct, but the problem is more social (what people would think) than practical (sales would be cannibalized). A company can't justify simultaneously charging $100 for its target audience and $50 for a small niche overseas audience. The Japanese customer base wouldn't be very happy about that, any more than Western customers would be happy about suddenly having to pay $100 for all future releases. This problem is currently surmounted by waiting for the title to fade out of the limelight before being re-released for overseas audiences at a deep discount.

If we sold them roughly around the same time then yes, the Japanese consumer would be more upset but we're not selling them at exactly the same time. Also a major price difference can be because how the economy and prices of things can differ in other countries. I don't know how exactly economy works but surely you can find things that are cheaper in America and expensive in Japan and things that are cheaper in Japan and more expensive in America.

6months - 1 year can be considered a enough time for something to fade out ( this is kinda subjective).

Why would you set out with the intention to halt a project midstream? That doesn't make any sense from a business standpoint. You're looking to extract collateral from Mangagamer--make them give a downpayment so we can be assured that they'll actually release the game since they C&D'd it. But why would it be in their best interest to do this?

They don't necessarily have to 'halt' the project. It can just be a side project they're working on, but not their main focus. (Lets be honest, they're doing a lot of nukige, which isn't their fault, but i doubt theres much to translate in a nukige. And most of the time people that are playing nukige probably care about 100% perfect grammar and translations. Some might but a majority probably doesnt care. Yes i know this is kind of off topic.) If they are fairly finished with the game when the final version of D.C III is out and release it (lets be nice and say)roughly 1 - 2 years later, The hype for the game won't be completely gone and people will still remember it. If they wait until the final version is out, by the time they finish people might not want to play the game anymore. People change, their taste change, and 4+ years is a long time.

[harry_kinomoto]

Alright people, I think its about time to break it up.

As a fan who wants to know how the Da Capo series develops I'm annoyed that Mangagamer didn't let me find that out a little sooner.

As an associate of Aaeru I feel very sorry that Mangagamer has made the decision to halt her otherwise well-intentioned efforts so abruptly.

But as a moderator of Fuwanovel, I think it speaks very poorly of our character to continue to criticize them in the wake of this decision.

Fuwanovel is not political. We take no sides except against those who would consciously prevent the spread of VNs in the West. As a company that strives to sell VNs to the West I believe Mangagamer is at least partially aligned with this goal, even if our methods may differ. I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt that they had valid reasons to send the CnD.

If you want to make a new topic discussing possible business models for marketing VNs in the West, please do so. Otherwise, please keep the company-bashing in this thread to a minimum. Peace~ B)/>

[sanahtlig]

Also a major price difference can be because how the economy and prices of things can differ in other countries. I don't know how exactly economy works but surely you can find things that are cheaper in America and expensive in Japan and things that are cheaper in Japan and more expensive in America.

Console games sell for about 6,500 yen, which is around $60-70, same as here.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/TV%E3%82%B2%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A0/b/ref=sd_allcat_tvgames?ie=UTF8&node=637394

If they wait until the final version is out, by the time they finish people might not want to play the game anymore. People change, their taste change, and 4+ years is a long time.

Mangagamer's releases are pretty quick. Their longer titles only seem to take them 6 months to 1 year. JAST USA is of course well known for its glacial speeds.

And translation of media has been here since the beginning of media, books, movies, series, EVERYTHING is being translated and it works and is profitable - why should it be different with VNs?

The overseas VN market is unique for a number of reasons. It's incredibly niche. It's (mostly) porn. It's largely confined to PCs. The audience is generally young, tech savvy, and reluctant to part with their money. All of these factors combine to create a climate that's extremely hostile to official localization. Mangagamer and JAST USA aren't the first companies to localize eroge. They're just the only ones left, because all of the others went out of business or gave up. Mangagamer isn't all that stable either, and it's quite possible that they won't be around 5 years from now.

Your comparisons to the general gaming industry ignore all of these unique elements that burden the tiny VN market. Without the small hardcore fanbase that currently funds localization efforts, the official market would shrivel and die (or decompose into a primordial ooze of self-replicating nukige), and fan translators would be all that's left. Without the advertising money from localization companies and fanfare from official releases (in niche news outlets and stores like RightStuf), interest would wane in the fan translation scene as well. VNDB itself is funded by advertising money; would anyone step up to fund such efforts if they're not even willing to pay for the games it lists?

As I see it, there's currently a tenuous symbiosis between fan translation and official localization. Each needs the other to reach the widest audience possible and provide support for future releases. Incidents like the OP threaten to turn this symbiosis into opposition, to the detriment of both parties and ultimately all VN fans.

[Steve]

The overseas VN market is unique for a number of reasons. It's incredibly niche. It's (mostly) porn. It's largely confined to PCs. The audience is generally young, tech savvy, and reluctant to part with their money.

Your comparisons to the general gaming industry ignore all of these unique elements that burden the tiny VN market.

If I take out the porn part, it basically leaves us with what games used to be, at least here.

Still around year 2000 when CS and quake 3 arena were already in gaming houses, people who spent there several hours a day were being looked just like people who play on Slot machines in pubs, both closed in dark rooms doing some stuff with electronic flashing machines.

I was spending all my allowance money there and the oldest people there were at about the age of 25, everyone built their own computer and everyone was still burning games, the owners of the gaming house were one of the biggest source of original games and from them we were copying the CDs as well.

Now tell me how was that a profitable market for any game developer or distributor in that country? It wasn't, yet suddenly in about 2003/4 we started getting new games in game shops. And conveniently at that time we also got ADSL internet. And what happened? EVERYONE bought CS for the new steam, we bought the boxed copy, installed and everyone was like wtf is this steam we need to install. But every one of those people who burned CDs so much that there was smoke going from their PC suddenly bought it. Then CS:S, battlefield 2. And with localization also singleplayer games.

So they managed to turn "scum" hiding in the darkest places of gaming houses trading burned CDs into paying customers, some like me even paying monthly fees for world of warcraft and such...

Same with VNs, there are people, you just need to convince them to pay you, convince them, not force them.

As I see it, there's currently a tenuous symbiosis between fan translation and official localization. Each needs the other to reach the widest audience possible and provide support for future releases. Incidents like the OP threaten to turn this symbiosis into opposition, to the detriment of both parties and ultimately all VN fans.

I agree with that, that's why I don't like them killing one, the fan TL in this case.

They should compete with the fan TL, not kill it.

Alright people, I think its about time to break it up.

well I guess youre right, we all have different opinions and its not like this topic can help the translation now.

Its just sad to see things die.

[sanahtlig]

If I take out the porn part, it basically leaves us with what games used to be, at least here.

But the porn element is important. It means you can't sell the games at typical outlets. The audience is inherently limited, and those remaining are even less willing to pay than they would otherwise. It becomes difficult to advertise. Usual news sources boycott your releases. Word of mouth and social media buzz becomes muffled. Paradoxically, the threat of censorship also increases with too much awareness. It's sad to say, but eroge are ultra niche, and will remain so for the forseeable future. The visual novel medium might blossom, but eroge are doomed to obscurity due to current societal mores. And without a broad customer base, prices will remain high. That's simply the price of having niche tastes--you can have high prices or cheap content. You can't have both low priced and high production value niche content.

[Steve]

It's sad to say, but eroge are ultra niche, and will remain so for the forseeable future. The visual novel medium might blossom, but eroge are doomed to obscurity due to current societal mores. And without a broad customer base, prices will remain high. That's simply the price of have niche tastes--you can have high prices or cheap content. You can't have both low priced and high production value niche content.

Yes but they are niche even in Japan and are still profitable - because they are also cheap to make. Yes there is better density in japan but they have like 100m people in there.

Then take the rest 6.9bil of people or what the population is and don't tell me you wouldn't find at least about half of the JP number of people interested.

Just look at fuwanovel numbers or even better VNDB numbers, there is 40k registered users, that means 40k of people that took the time to register so they can keep a list or whatever, many other people who play VNs I know don't even have VNDB account.

So the market is there, even if not the numbers of JP people, it is there and translation should never cost nearly as much as the whole VN development, And if done right and quickly, it will be bonus sales that would otherwise not be sales at all or be torrent DLs.

And you throw the 100usd all the time so again, think about how much of that the developer actually sees, after all the giant cuts from distribution. They can afford -20% whole summer deal (or there is always a coupon for at least 15% from somewhere, must be even easier to get it in japan as you just get it with any other purchase) and I think you get another 5% in points on sites like DLgetchu which you can use for next purchases if you buy there regularly which is also sometimes doubled to about 10% from the purchase. And you get 3% if you register there.

So lets see, DCIII X rated is 80usd on getchu for boxed copy normal edition (without some artbook or whatever as you don't get that with digital either). You apply all the regular discounts (not even counting the best deal you can get) and all and you get it for about 60usd and it is boxed copy.

So why do you think 50usd for English DL release on same day is not enough?

For a big release like that it is a fair price if I can play it on the day of release.

5 years after when there is DCIV... not so much.

So that brings the whole point once again.

People want the newest and greatest, we want to see the new stuff like Witch's Garden technology or whatever else the new VNs has to offer, not old stuff for a price of a new release.

[Steve]

Also lets move to the proper topic so this topic is left only for info about the C&D and cries and suffering of people who were looking forward to it.

new:

[Wahfuu]

AHHHHH

IM STUPID.

DIDNT MEAN TO PUT THIS HERE.

THANKS.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Wahfuu