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Mangagamer Cease & Desist Da Capo III fan translation


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Sanahtlig has some pretty good points.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the entire reason for Da Capo III was for the sole purpose of generating another round of copyright arguments, but the whole rant post does seem like it's trying to paint MangaGamer as some sort of antagonist.

I admit this unshakeable ideal and this absurd focus on copyright is just creating tension between two sides that should be working together. Yet, they aren't. And this is part of the reason why.

I don't buy the whole 'copyright is evil, fight the power' anarchy pandering. Not only do I not agree with it, but we are gaining nothing from it. There is no reasonable way to work it out, no 'good answer' that both sides will come to on this, and no way that it'll ever stop. It needs to be tossed out the window and forgotten about.

I think that forcing Aaeru to Cease and Desist creating a fan translation of DCIII, that she is doing for herself because she wants to, is just bullshit. Would her translation really hurt Mangagamer?? Not at all.

Yes. It would. It absolutely would. Even if we forget that the translation is slapped right next to a pirated copy of D.C.III for a second, If it gets fan translated before MangaGamer releases it, people are going to pirate it and play it with the fan translation. What reason is there, at all, to wait for MangaGamer to release it now? We have the next installment. Hype will get generated, people will review it, erogdown will post it up, and there will be entirely zero reason for anybody to buy a copy from MangaGamer. Not everyone, sadly, is going to get a hard copy or buy it out of the 'spirit' of things. It's just not realistic.

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Yes. It would. It absolutely would. Even if we forget that the translation is slapped right next to a pirated copy of D.C.III for a second, If it gets fan translated before MangaGamer releases it, people are going to pirate it and play it with the fan translation. What reason is there, at all, to wait for Mangaamer to release it now? We have the next installment. Hype will get generated, people will review it, erogdown will post it up, and there will be entirely zero reason for anybody to buy a copy from MangaGamer. Not everyone, sadly, is going to get a hard copy or buy it out of the 'spirit' of things. It's just not realistic.

Ill agree to disagree. There are "pirated" copies of most all of the Mangagamer released VN's on the internet as you have mentioned. Are you telling me that you haven't downloaded any Mangagamer games "illegally"? Or any other companies for that matter? Are you not for fan translation at all? Because lets be honest, a large percentage of the games you play are probably not hard copies. Doesn't that make you just as guilty as Aaeru because you are promoting "pirated" VN's by downloading them? Most of the games on Fuwanovel are fan translations are you saying that they should be taken down?

If it gets fan translated before Mangagamer releases it, people are going to pirate it and play it with the fan translation. What reason is there, at all, to wait for Mangagamer to release it now?

I guess I didn't realize how such a small community of people who love fan translated VN's (come on lets be realistic its a small community) is hurting sales for any of the major VN producers in such a large way. I would love to see the actually numbers.

What im saying is that VERY LARGE portion of the "fans" of Visual Novels don't buy them. They download them. I buy the games I like. I have spent a lot of money doing it. For all those who are criticizing Aaeru, let me ask. Are you completely innocent of breaking the same Copyright Law that Aaeru is accused of breaking?? I didn't think so.

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Ill agree to disagree. There are "pirated" copies of most all of the Mangagamer released VN's on the internet as you have mentioned. Are you telling me that you haven't downloaded any Mangagamer games "illegally"? Or any other companies for that matter? Are you not for fan translation at all? Because lets be honest, a large percentage of the games you play are probably not hard copies. Doesn't that make you just as guilty as Aaeru because you are promoting "pirated" VN's by downloading them? Most of the games on Fuwanovel are fan translations are you saying that they should be taken down?

For one, my innocence and or lack of when it comes to pirating VN's is so absurdly irrelevent to not only the whole argument but to what I said that I'm amazed you brought it up at all.

I'll play along though. My scenario is not identicle to Aaerus. I do not run a site that gives links to torrents and downloads of pirated copies, nor do I go around saying that copyright is evil and everyone should just share everything. So, no. I am not as guilty as Aaeru. I do not share the same ideals. Also, be reasonable; D.C.III is going to get released by MangaGamer in the future. This is almost an absolute. Most fan translations are for games that will NEVER see the light of day under an english format officially. Once again, entirely different scenarios.

I guess I didn't realize how such a small community of people who love fan translated VN's (come on lets be realistic its a small community) is hurting sales for any of the major VN producers in such a large way. I would love to see the actually numbers.

What im saying is that VERY LARGE portion of the "fans" of Visual Novels don't buy them. They download them. I buy the games I like. I have spent a lot of money doing it. For all those who are criticizing Aaeru, let me ask. Are you completely innocent of breaking the same Copyright Law that Aaeru is accused of breaking?? I didn't think so.

Once again, not everyone hosts a site promoting it and not everybody makes absurdly long copyright debates filled with copypasted videos of other peoples work. You cannot compare apples to oranges. Not only that, one person doing a absurdly smaller version of the said fault doesn't erase the grandoir monster that Aaeru is doing.

Anyways, this is a huge reason why MangaGamer continuiously boggs down into nukige trains and sex games, because they make the most profit for the least amount of effort. The people who crack this stuff a lot of the time simply don't care enough to crack worthless sex games. The english VN market is living on the barebones as it is.

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For one, my innocence and or lack of when it comes to pirating VN's is so absurdly irrelevent to not only the whole argument but to what I said that I'm amazed you brought it up at all.

Fine let me ask you this. If this wouldnt of happened and Aaeru finished her DCIII translation, would you of download and played it?

I do not run a site that gives links to torrents and downloads of pirated copies, nor do I go around saying that copyright is evil and everyone should just share everything.
So you have never benefited from said "Torrents and downloads of pirated copies"

Your "innocence or lack of" is NOT irrelevant. Your condemning Aaeru for doing what she did, copyright rants and blogs aside, and yet your get your VN's off the internet. Do you run a site that provides the stuff? no. Do you rant about copyright law and shit? no But you do gain from the people who do. Im just tired of people saying Aaeru is in the wrong when they are downloading from people who did the exact same thing Aaeru was trying to do. Right or wrong you benefited from it. Take that into consideration before you condemn their actions.

This is a community about the spread of VN's. Most of which are fan translated. Support the people who provide you with said VN's

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NeoDragon said it well on the blog,

The point everybody here should agree on is that the fanbase has to grow. So let's start from there. What is needed for that ?

1. Enlightenment: It can't be that if you ask your (not enlightend) friends about VNs there is either no answer at all or "Oh, these sick porn games, right ?" [with "Rapelay" in their mind...]. What is wrong with the world ? If VNs are present in the "more public" media, it's mostly in a negative context (for example some "TOP-10-Ranking of the most weird games" or some crap like that). That has to change! Fast! How ? That's the master question here. I've no real answer on that atm. Maybe beginning by spreading the word not just in VN forums, but in normal forums as well. But that's a very hard and difficult road...

2. [Probably the simpler way because we don't have enough influence on the "public media"] Marketing/Promotion: Fan translations are VERY important for that (because they can be compared to be FREE stuff you get everywhere (food or cosmetics in supermarkets, magazines etc. ... at least in my country it's like that), but it's not enough. As already pointed out, that ALONE doesn't help to increase the fanbase. You have to bring the translated game(s) to people not yet involved in VNs. And you have to do it for free or at a heavily decreased price, because it's neary impossible to get the interest of someone not related to VNs before (and remember the bad media presence of VNs) with a 40$-game at Mangagamer (even a demo doesn't help much there, because everyone knows demos show just a pre-chosen part of the game) The only thing that really helps (in my opinion) is offering the game for free or nearly free. Then, after playing the WHOLE thing, some people might say "Oh, that's great: I'll try more of this"

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Fine let me ask you this. If this wouldnt of happened and Aaeru finished her DCIII translation, would you of download and played it?

Considering I already own a hard-copy of D.C.III, no, probably not. Who knows, if I feel like having seven for some odd reason then we could talk.

So you have never benefited from said "Torrents and downloads of pirated copies"

Your "innocence or lack of" is NOT irrelevant. Your condemning Aaeru for doing what she did, copyright rants and blogs aside, and yet your get your VN's off the internet. Do you run a site that provides the stuff? no. Do you rant about copyright law and shit? no But you do gain from the people who do. Im just tired of people saying Aaeru is in the wrong when they are downloading from people who did the exact same thing Aaeru was trying to do. Right or wrong you benefited from it. Take that into consideration before you condemn their actions.

This is a community about the spread of VN's. Most of which are fan translated. Support the people who provide you with said VN's

One: I wasn't exactly against the D.C.III translation, and MangaGamer is not innocent in all of this. I never said that.

Aaeru's scenario is not everything elses scenario. Most fan translations do not enforce piracy. Most fan translations do not encourage it, either. And once again, the fault of another does not automatically wash away what's happening here. 'They made a fan translation too' does not automatically smack an OK stamp.

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I have bought SEVERAL VN's from Mangagamer recently. I spent a shitload of money on games that I wanted. Would I of bought their Final version that they will put out eventually? yes i would of because I am a huge fan of DC. Always have been therefor I would of wanted the Hard copy for my collection. I think that forcing Aaeru to Cease and Desist creating a fan translation of DCIII, that she is doing for herself because she wants to, is just bullshit. Would her translation really hurt Mangagamer?? Not at all.

For every one person like you (that buys the official localization of a title that's been fan translated and freely distributed) there's dozens of people that view fan translated titles as freebies. As Aaeru likes to boast, you can't compete with free--except her English translation freely distributed alongside a copy of the Japanese title isn't "free". It's piracy. Mangagamer already has a huge problem with piracy without fan translators adding fuel to the fire--they can literally spot when a crack is released for their games by the collapse of sales. Evidently, many of their customers are opportunists. They pirate what they can and buy what they must. It paints a very dismal picture of human nature, but there you go.

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Herein, I believe, comes the question: why exactly do people prefer to get something for free instead of paying for it? There could be many reasons; it is a very difficult question.

In any case, I'm sorry to hear about this, Aaeru. You were very passionate about your translation, and I know you worked hard.

All of this made me meditate a bit about piracy today, and I ended up posting my brief thoughts on twitter.

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For every one person like you (that buys the official localization of a title that's been fan translated and freely distributed) there's dozens of people that view fan translated titles as freebies. As Aaeru likes to boast, you can't compete with free--except her English translation freely distributed along a copy of the Japanese title isn't "free". It's piracy. Mangagamer already has a huge problem with piracy without fan translators adding fuel to the fire--they can literally spot when a crack is released for their games by the collapse of sales. Evidently, many of their customers are opportunists. They pirate what they can and buy what they must. It paints a very dismal picture of human nature, but there you go.

Well, I tried to tell Aeeru this a long time ago, but it didn't take: if you package the game for DL together with the translation patch, then it does, to some extent, encourage "piracy". I know it is convenient for the users but it has this tradeoff to it.

Meanwhile, as long as your patch has equal opportunity to be used on a genuine install as well as the downloaded one then you have not encouraged "piracy."

As far as this DCIII fan translation goes, I don't really think Aaeru was wrong to start it, and I don't really think MG was wrong to shut it down. I've seen it happen lots of times with anime. Someone will start fansubbing something, and then some distributor will license it to publish in localization, and then they have to basically stop. (At least once I saw where the company claimed they had some show, turned out they didn't actually plan to release it, and the fansub was actually picked back up again).

BTW, the reason I keep saying "piracy" in quotes is that to me what you're talking about is copyright violation in the form of unauthrozied copying. To me, "piracy" is a different word, and worse. It means you steal products that belong to someone else and THEN you sell them as if you are entitled to make money off them. (After all, the original seagoing pirates never GAVE their loot away, I think).

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Comparisons to the anime industry aren't quite apt because the anime industry's translation potential is saturated: the majority of good anime get an official release. The VN market by comparison is completely unsaturated: less than 5% of titles get an official release. Aaeru picked a title that painted a C&D bullseye on her. She didn't have to--she could've picked a different title with much lower risk. Whereas no matter what anime you pick to fansub, there's a very high risk of a company coming along and deciding to license it, and therefore C&D'ing you.

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I see this topic turned to something very different.

First off, you don't pick a TL based on what a chance of C&D is, you pick a VN that you love, enjoyed and you want other people to enjoy. What you are saying is like some business thinking or whatever, which fan TL is not based around at all, they earn 0 money for their years worth of time. Having a "right" to stop someone doing something for free is just WRONG.

It is wrong in fan TL, it is wrong in modding community (Skyrim middle earth mod).

I already said this in some topic here, not sure where.

It is exactly the same principle as if someone would stop a person volunteering to help old people across a road or helping them shop. There are assistants like that who get paid for it, they have no right to stop the volunteers.

Those who get paid for this have one option and this option applies to this too as well as everything mentioned here - they have to offer better service than the volunteers. Often these volunteers are students so they don't have a car. If this senior assistant can offer a car, he will be offering a better service than the volunteer.

And now lets see how it works in our world of games.

.. Yes that is right, if the company wants people to pay for their service, they need to offer better service, in this case they would need to offer better quality translation in faster time.

Or are you telling me they cannot compete with fan translators even though they receive money for it? What is it they receive money for then? Owning a license? Oh yeah they do, that's what is wrong with everything in this "intellectual property" bullshit.

They should get money for job better done, job faster done.

If they are unable to compete with volunteers, they are doing something wrong and they should have no right to stop volunteers.

Now lets see Assassins Creed 2, do you remember? People who actually bought the game could not play it, were losing their saves. Where as warez copy was working just fine.

They learned, they removed their shitty DRM, they added fun multiplayer - and look at sales for the latest AC3, people bought it, people who downloaded warez version of AC2 bought AC3 (I know many examples). Or did you miss the latest fiasco with EA and their SimCity 5?

People couldn't play the game, people who preordered didn't receive their copies and some were forced to pay for new order without option to cancel their preorder at that time, EA didn't want to give refunds for a game that wasn't working. And lets see what happens with the next EA singleplayer title, I am pretty sure it will get pirated to eternity, I personally will never buy EA title, I will play the games still, warez version, but I will not support these evil publishers like EA.

If a company wants me to pay for their copy of a digital files, they need to offere better service, do they have good multiplayer servers, do they offer instant redownload of the game (on steam or whatever), do they let me play offline? Do they make sure I don't lose my save and I have them in both my computer and cloud, not just only stupid cloud? Do they get rid of this region locking bullshit? I want to play the game on release, not a week later in EU release... If I'd had to wait for EU release, ill just play the pirate copy on the day of US release (or a day later which is about the time crack gets done).

If they don't bullshit me and offer better service, I will pay, if not, I will just download and pay for free.

So as you can see, I am (and many others) looking at paying for games as paying to the publisher. Developers already got paid, don't worry about them. People are much more willing to pay to developers than to publishers, just look at kickstarter... That speaks for itself.

Publisher's job is to provide the service of the game to people, they need to do it better than warez scene, otherwise they are doing it wrong. That's why they receive money from sales.

Just as western VN publisher's job is to provide better service than fan TL, faster, better quality. If they are not able to compete, they are doing it wrong and why should they receive money for it? Its not like devs receive anything from the sales.

I am telling you, if there was kickstarter from some of the popular VN developers that they will hire professional TL studio that will be translating alongside the development, it would get funded in few days. You see people are willing to pay for things they like, you just have to provide a good offer... which releasing a game 4 years after the JP release is not.

So I will say it again, having the right to stop volunteer (in this case Aaeru, alone in the project, working in day and doing this for free in her free time) just because they are unable to provide better service while GETTING PAID, is wrong, wrong, terribly wrong and once again wrong!

See the forumula?

[(Single individual * her free time) + $0] > [(team * paid time) + $$$$$$$$]

that's not how it is supposed to work...

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Well. I'm going to leave my stance on this to rest barring some real absurdity. If anyone feels like debating/arguing with me, just take it to PM's and I'll probably comply. I feel like a lot of this thread is rubbing salt on the wounds of Aaeru and I don't want to paint her as some sort of antagonist nor do I hold any ill-will towards her, so I'll gently bow out and leave my opinion on this above.

\o/

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To be honest, I agree with Wahfuu on some points, especially with this:

I admit this unshakeable ideal and this absurd focus on copyright is just creating tension between two sides that should be working together. Yet, they aren't.

Working together is like the best way out of this situation. However, working together doesn't mean signing a contract or something. It also means two sides work for the same purpose, or for different purposes that can help the other. It's like a win-win situation in a negotiation.

What does Mangagamer want with D.C. III? Money of course.

What does Aaeru wants?

Aaeru: The issue is that I actually wanted to translate Da Capo III. I wanted to. I enjoyed expressing myself through this work. There were some people who were actually crazy enough to want to read my writing! That's so cool!.......

Now I'll quote what I wrote a while back on visualnovelaer:

Ummm…… Copyright is always the issue when it comes to entertainment. I don’t have much knowledge about law and economy since I’m only in high school, but I still think there is a way to solve this problem.

Aaeru-san, just wait for another year or two, then resume your D.C III translation project. At that point, I think that Manga Gamers will have already gained all the profit it can get with the visual novel in Japanese, and the growth will just go down. That is when it is necessary for Manga Gamers to attract foreign customers. That’s when you’ll step in and provide the translation. It would profit and you, and Manga Gamers. You get to fulfill your passion for the series, and they get more popularity and reputation in the West. I believe they won’t have any intention to C&D your project by that time.

Well, this can only work if Manga Gamers itself doesn’t plan on translating and releasing the English version of D.C III.

It is a win-win. Well, unfortunately we - fans, will also have to wait for another year or two, which is pretty sad, but hey, it's still better than a "we-get-nothing-but-arguements" situation. Besides, there are plenty of stalled translation projects that will never be finished. Aaeru is a responsible person and I'm sure of it, so I won't mind waiting at all.

Well, there's still a problem though. I speculate they C&Ded D.C III translation project because they'll be doing an English version for the VN.

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Well. I'm going to leave my stance on this to rest barring some real absurdity. If anyone feels like debating/arguing with me, just take it to PM's and I'll probably comply. I feel like a lot of this thread is rubbing salt on the wounds of Aaeru and I don't want to paint her as some sort of antagonist nor do I hold any ill-will towards her, so I'll gently bow out and leave my opinion on this above.

\o/

Again, this is really considerate, but thanks to everybody -- especially those who aren't agreed on the matter -- for respectful, intelligent discussion. This is one of the more eloquently and effectively presented discussions on the site, and has given all of us, me included, a lot to think about. Great points on both sides which deserve analysis with open minds.

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I see this topic turned to something very different.

First off, you don't pick a TL based on what a chance of C&D is, you pick a VN that you love, enjoyed and you want other people to enjoy.

Or you pick one that you love, enjoy, want other people to enjoy, and just happens to further your activist agenda all at the same time. Risk of C&D is a negative for most fan translators. In Aaeru's case, I believe it was a positive. I could be wrong, but Aaeru openly *invited* a C&D on multiple occasions. Ask yourself: Is that the behavior of someone who wants to avoid getting entangled in a copyright law controversy?

So as you can see, I am (and many others) looking at paying for games as paying to the publisher. Developers already got paid, don't worry about them. People are much more willing to pay to developers than to publishers, just look at kickstarter... That speaks for itself.

Proposing that all VN localizations *must* be funded by Kickstarter (as Aaeru suggests) is as absurd as banning Kickstarter funding. Developers should have a choice of which model they want to use. Who are Aaeru et. al to declare that all models except Kickstarter are invalid because they don't like them, and then proceed to unilaterally subvert them? IP enables retrospective funding, which is currently the basis for the vast majority of software design projects. Prospective funding is a nice alternative, but it's just that: an alternative. Prospective funding has limitations. We need both models. And since VNs were developed using a retrospective funding mechanism, switching to a prospective funding mechanism for localization is difficult.

Publisher's job is to provide the service of the game to people, they need to do it better than warez scene, otherwise they are doing it wrong. That's why they receive money from sales.

Just as western VN publisher's job is to provide better service than fan TL, faster, better quality. If they are not able to compete, they are doing it wrong and why should they receive money for it? Its not like devs receive anything from the sales.

You don't seem to understand how this business actually works. The model is based on retrospective funding. Publishers fund developers (and often the developer is the publisher in the Japanese VN industry). Funds come from loans or previous sales (or both). More sales means the developer/publisher has more funds (and more credit) to fund the next title. Less sales mean less funds, less credit, and the possibility that they can't pay back the loans they took out on the last title (and thus go bankrupt). Of course the developers benefit from more sales, whether they be from sales in Japan or sales overseas.

By downloading warez, you're not supporting the creation of more software. You're just freeloading. It's your responsibility to support software you like and want to see more of. Unfortunately, fan translations reduce this sense of responsibility--all the moreso when they're distributed alongside warez.

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Or you pick one that you love, enjoy, want other people to enjoy, and just happens to further your activist agenda all at the same time. Risk of C&D is a negative for most fan translators. In Aaeru's case, I believe it was a positive. I could be wrong, but Aaeru openly *invited* a C&D on multiple occasions.

She did say she doesn't care about being sued by MG. Not sure why she suddenly wants to stop it now just because of mere C&D. http://puu.sh/2q29l

Perhaps Tay is right; she wants to use this case to prove or highlight something to the community.

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There is also the possibility of finishing the TL without your name on it as I know fame is not something you are after and why you do all this.

If there is no address to send the C&D to, there can be none.

Just like it is with warez scene. If I take the most common example on the probably most known group SKIDROW, there is no way to contact SKIDROW, there is no website, there is no contact email, there are no names. Its just SKIDROW so if any company wants to contact them, they have no way (unless they spend months to infiltrate the group).

There are no announcements or progress bar, when the release is done, it just pops up on FTP to which only limited people have access, then it gets to sceneaccess tracker and then it spreads to other trackers. They don't boast, only communication they make with the outside is through the NFO file.

If this is what fan TL would need to go into, I don't think its a bad thing, everything is better than project dying.

Exactly. Aaeru is probably known too well at this point, however.

That's what the Shanzhai movement is all about: be agile enough to skirt around the big companies, and meanwhile, produce produce produce. No waiting for approvals/agreements/whatnot; just get product to market as soon as possible.

The amount of individuals who will do nontrivial work for free is increasing. Aaeru is(was) doing this translation for free, and the fact that some company wants her to stop just so they might be able to make a profit from doing the same work is likely what's causing all this commotion. This old business model needs to change, and while companies can continue trying to brainwash consumers into following them, we can only hope this "tyranny of IP" won't last forever as content creation becomes more accessible and the consumers become producer-sharers.

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sorry ive been away, so only saw these posts just now, i dont have the time (or health) to go through them right now.

but can I just say Sanahtlig's assumptions are wrong. I didn't do it on purpose to provoke C&D okay? The real reason why I picked D.C.III, is because I want to translate it. I WANTED to translate it. That is the main reason. Other reasons include strong capture point to convert new fans.

Also you are a collectivist. I am not. I am individual human rights, individual liberty. So long as you continue to think that everyone should play their part on a chess board according to your mind of how things should work in order to achieve the 'collective good', we will never be on the same side.

anyways i gtg

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sorry ive been away, so only saw these posts just now, i dont have the time (or health) to go through them right now.

but can I just say Sanahtlig's assumptions are wrong. I didn't do it on purpose to provoke C&D okay? The real reason why I picked D.C.III, is because I want to translate it. I WANTED to translate it. That is the main reason. Other reasons include strong capture point to convert new fans.

Also you are a collectivist. I am not. I am individual human rights, individual liberty. So long as you continue to think that everyone should play their part on a chess board according to your mind of how things should work in order to achieve the 'collective good', we will never be on the same side.

anyways i gtg

Nice to see you're back.

But really now, does it matter which side we're on. Love thy enemy, as they say.

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(1) As Clephas pointed out, this was the inevitable outcome of Aaeru’s endeavor–and honestly, I’m probably more cynical even than Clephas. Aaeru knowingly provoked this C&D to spark a controversy. She could’ve chosen any of the thousands of VNs not developed by a company working with JAST or Mangagamer. She could’ve translated the game in secret and released a patch, completely preempting a C&D. But she didn’t. Neither of these would’ve served her purposes of drawing attention to the copyright issue. Thus I have no sympathy for Aaeru. I personally tried to dissuade her, being as reasonable as I possibly could, when I first heard about the translation. I’m honestly rather surprised she even intends to comply with the C&D, given her inflexible belief system.

For those interested in Mangagamer’s stance, they intend to localize Da Capo 3. But not until the game is “complete”, and part of that is having ero–because that’s what sells for them and that’s an element the former titles in the series all had.

(2) "It doesn't mitigate the risk for the community as a whole"

Right. Again, Aaeru is putting her ideals before the good of the community. Fan translators and localization companies working side-by-side, independently but noncompetitively will bring the most VNs to the English-speaking audience. By not respecting the "territory" that localization companies have staked out, she creates unnecessary friction that just pits the two sub-communities against each other. Instead of presenting a united front striving towards a common goal, she generates strife over a topic that to me seems rather trivial. Whichever side "wins", the localization companies (by squashing competing fan translations) or the fan translation community (by "outcompeting" localization companies until they fold), both sides lose in the end.

It's a fruitless conflict and no good will come of it. If you're going to fight, take your battles out of our backyard please.

(1)

- what if she doesn't want to translate those thousands of VNs that she might have less of an interest of in the first place?

- "Neither of these would’ve served her purposes of drawing attention to the copyright issue." I fail to see how doing the translation in secret vs doing it in public makes a difference in the copyright issue other than one is more visible. which still doesn't matter.

- "being as reasonable as I possibly could" more like let's go into and go on for 2-3 pages to try to persuade Aaeru to use your belief system when.. um... lol k, even when she presented her views on it multiple times in the same topic (or at least had a long heated argument already), not that I'm gonna go through the whole topic to pick out everything, you can find her putting what she believe multiple times already in that same topic.

(2)

- "It's a fruitless conflict and no good will come of it. If you're going to fight, take your battles out of our backyard please." <-- wat, you own the internet or something?, idk, the same can be said of people who are against her too? /shrug

Comparisons to the anime industry aren't quite apt because the anime industry's translation potential is saturated: the majority of good anime get an official release. The VN market by comparison is completely unsaturated: less than 5% of titles get an official release. Aaeru picked a title that painted a C&D bullseye on her. She didn't have to--she could've picked a different title with much lower risk. Whereas no matter what anime you pick to fansub, there's a very high risk of a company coming along and deciding to license it, and therefore C&D'ing you.

sure cause the VN industry can't grow and adapt in the first place like the anime industry did (and had to in the past a few years ago in the first place) from primarily fan translations to licensed

(1) Or you pick one that you love, enjoy, want other people to enjoy, and just happens to further your activist agenda all at the same time. Risk of C&D is a negative for most fan translators. In Aaeru's case, I believe it was a positive. I could be wrong, but Aaeru openly *invited* a C&D on multiple occasions. Ask yourself: Is that the behavior of someone who wants to avoid getting entangled in a copyright law controversy?

(2) Proposing that all VN localizations *must* be funded by Kickstarter (as Aaeru suggests) is as absurd as banning Kickstarter funding. Developers should have a choice of which model they want to use. Who are Aaeru et. al to declare that all models except Kickstarter are invalid because they don't like them, and then proceed to unilaterally subvert them? IP enables retrospective funding, which is currently the basis for the vast majority of software design projects. Prospective funding is a nice alternative, but it's just that: an alternative. Prospective funding has limitations. We need both models. And since VNs were developed using a retrospective funding mechanism, switching to a prospective funding mechanism for localization is difficult.

(1):

- and how do you know her original interest levels in translating the said VN's in the first place even without the copyright issues?

- also antagonizing people isn't exactly the best way to go

(2):

- proposing that "just because it's difficult therefore her opinion is invalid" is very hypocritical.

you can't say that it can't happen because most have not even tried the model in reality in the first place.

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I don't really have anything new to add, but I elaborated on the issues I see with a Kickstarter localization in this thread:

Feel free to comment there on how these issues and others can be overcome to make Kickstarter localizations the gold standard and render IP obsolete.

Also, I should point out I'm not a collectivist. Collectivists don't seek out arguments. :P I simply acknowledge the utility of social cohesion in certain contexts.

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Eh I'm late to this but nevermind. Firstly, I just wanna say sorry you had to stop the translation, Aaeru :( I know you were really passionate about it and working hard so we could all play it asap.

I don't necessarily agree with all of Aaerus points, but I think everyone else has out forward plenty of things to think about for the time being!

What I do want to mention is that some people seem to criticize MG for not releasing quicker. Yeah I agree they could (should) be much faster than they are, but one of the problems with doing everything completely legally and by the book is that it takes a lot of time. These Japanese companies generally don't care at all about their potential western market, and I think the fact that MG has managed to establish relationships and secure rights is an achievement and a step forward for visual novels in the West. Whether they are dealing with the rights well once they have them is another matter (and indeed whether you even agree with the concept of copyrights at all).

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