Unpopular Opinions About VN's

[Funyarinpa]

Since this is a real thread now...

 

Hoshizora no Memoria is boring with some terrible routes, and Mare is the worst character in the game. Se is predictable, one note, and not cute at all.

 

Katawa Shoujo is trite garbage and the whole thing stinks of a "me too!" attitude that just wants to do a thing because Japan does too, without an ounce of creativity.

 

Yumiko is the most boring heroine in Grisaia no Kajitsu by a mile, and her route is by far the worst as well. In a game where every heroine becomes overly dependent on Yuuji, she was by far the worst in that regard. Her transformation into a super docile waifu who can barely even breathe without her man being there to protect her was atrocious, and the route's general plot was a worse, rehashed version of Makina's. Her backstory could not possibly be more boring.

 

Also with GnK, Yuuji is a total blowhard. If he was american, he'd be spending all day posting in the MRA subreddit and tending to his fedora collection. Thankfully his character is used in really hilarious manners, but the story is at its worse when you're meant to take his attitude seriously, because it's just impossible to do so. It's really depressing how many people see him as practically a role model.

 

999 is unremarkable, its twists not all that interesting, and the characters are really boring. VLR is more of the same, but it drags on even longer. I couldn't even finish Ever17.

 

Eden* does not have a single compelling character and despite it trying so incredibly hard to make you cry, it completely fails at evoking any strong emotions. Largely because it's impossible to give a shit about any of the characters.

 

Koi ga Saku Koro Sakura Doki was the most disappointing releases in years and it's a mystifying that it is retaining a strong rating on VNDB after the partial patch was released. The heroine routes are god awful. The melodrama feels super unnatural and the writing takes a sharp nosedive, and it wasn't even that good to begin with.

 

Sengoku Rance's gameplay feels sub-par and I'd rather play a real strategy game. Rance himself is extremely unlikeable and there is no humor in anything he does.

 

I can keep going all day.

 

Well, you know, that's, like, your opinion, man.

[babiker]

^That guy obviously wanted to hate on you and I can't really blame him but chose to keep it civilized at the last moment. Not bad, Arinpa, not bad at all 

[LinovaA]

Well this is the "Unpopular OPINIONS about VNs" thread sooooo..

[Abyssal Monkey]

Why not? I personally would disagree here... If I look at wikipedia, the first sentence says the following: "A game is structured playing, usually undertaken for enjoyment ... " Thats the also way I see it and so I would say that fits relatively perfect for me when i play/read a VN... I think we should not be that strict with that stuff...

A: you're quoting from Wikipedia, who anybody can change. B: I don't consider most VN's games unless they have actual gameplay (ie. Rance, Neko Neko Machine Race) and even then, it might be arguable to call them games with hentai content (Kamidori, maybe most things by Eushelly?) rather than actual Visual Novels.   Calling a true visual novel a game is like calling a Choose Your Own Adventure book a board game, its silly.  

[Tenkuru]

I might as well join in the discussion.

There are many views from different people as to what a game actually is, and there isn't a concrete definition, but VNs are definitely not games. I personally like Eric Zimmerman's take on what a game is. According to him, a game is defined as “a system in which players engage in an artificial conflict, defined by rules, that results in a quantifiable outcome”. VNs are at heart, like the name suggests, novels with visuals accompanying them. The only thing close to "gameplay" is the presence of choices that affect how the story progress. You can hardly call that a game.

[LinovaA]

I might as well join in the discussion.

There are many views from different people as to what a game actually is, and there isn't a concrete definition, but VNs are definitely not games. I personally like Eric Zimmerman's take on what a game is. According to him, a game is defined as “a system in which players engage in an artificial conflict, defined by rules, that results in a quantifiable outcome”. VNs are at heart, like the name suggests, novels with visuals accompanying them. The only thing close to "gameplay" is the presence of choices that affect how the story progress. You can hardly call that a game.

 

It's an 'interesting' debate. I know there are some people out there whose feathers get a little ruffled when people refer to them as games or vice-versa.. so when I talk about VNs, I generally use a more ambiguous term such as "going through" a particular VN. That way I am not implying that they are game or not. 

 

I personally believe they are not games. I much prefer to think about them as something closer to novels. However, when I am introducing someone to the genre... I refer to them as games.. as that sounds more appealing to my friends who are ALL gamers. 

[Eclipsed]

It's an 'interesting' debate. I know there are some people out there whose feather get a little ruffled when people refer to them as games or vice-versa.. so when I talk about VNs, I generally use a more ambiguous term such as "going through" a particular VN. That way I am not implying that they are game or not. 

 

 

...people get their feathers ruffled when you refer to VNs as VNs? 

[Satsuki]

Well, maybe you should just change the thread title to "hate thread", because clearly the thread is going that way.

[LinovaA]

...people get their feathers ruffled when you refer to VNs as VNs? 

 

Woops. XD I mean like they get their feathers ruffled if I refer to them as games, or as well.. NOT games. Therefore, using a more ambiguous term is a way that I can just keep all people happy.

 

Unless you just be giving me sarcasm here.

[FinalChaos]

Muv-Luv(series) is simply an average vn. I never understood all the hype surrounding it and I agree with Rinpa that it's a 7/10. The fact that it is listed as the best vn in vndb just pisses me off.

Kana -little sister- is subpar vn with nothing remarkable at all. It is too over-dramatic and boring as hell. The fact that people consider it a classic seems dumb to me.

 

On the positive side,

Just because a vn has tons of h-content doesn't mean that it's bad. If anyone has doubts about it then you should play MGQ(Monster Girl Quest). MGQ is one of the best vns which covers a multitude of issues.

[Nosebleed]

It's interesting how westerners are the only ones that fight and argue about VNs not being games when Japan, the creator of most of these things calls them and classifies them as games.

 

Eroge - Ero gemu

Galge - Gal gemu

And regular VNs with no h-content and where the focus is not to date girls are simply called games.

 

We're literally the only ones to fuss about such a pointless thing.

 

Wether you call it a game, a piece of software, an interactive book, etc it still doesn't change its content in any way shape or form and definitely doesn't make it more superior to anything.

[Nerathim]

Comyu is the deepest VN on par with Umineko, it has incredibly well done parallels inside the story, enormous amount of interpretations possible and also one of the best cast of characters in its field, a masterpiece that is only clouded by its average translation.

 

Clannad is horrible, the first part with all the routes is worse and longer than muv-luv extra, it has bored me so much that I dropped it at the beggining of After Story.

Steins;Gate is incredibly overrated, plotholes everywhere, Okabe is the only interesting character in the whole game, the first part suggests an incredible second one with a lot of ambition when in truth there is only a succession of repetitives story parts that excel absolutely nowhere (despite that I still think it's a ok VN but hey, it's 2nd on vndb..)

 

Fight me

[Tenkuru]

Zimmerman's definition is limited - deliberately so, since he wouldn't be able to develop comprehensible levels of analysis otherwise. He consciously separated playing what he would later call a game from playing what he calls child's play, when both become and cease to be interchangeable easily. His model can't take into account borderline cases such as visual novels, ARGs, simulators, a hypothetical war that follows a chivalry code strictly or a sports match with predetermined results.

 

I prefer to use Huizinga's considerations not on what a game is, but on what playing a game feels like. Visual novels sure as hell set up a magic circle and are capable of triggering gameplay as an experience and not as a system. Agency is not as important as the illusion of agency, you see, so what would define a game according to these standards is the player's attitude, not the rules or outcomes.

[Vokoca]

Well, here goes.

 

Chaos;Head is a better VN than Steins;Gate. The premise is more original and interesting, the OST is better, the atmosphere is better, the characters (especially the heroines) are relatively unusual and interesting (they have their quirks), while S;G's are just a bunch of stereotypes, and even the main character is much more interesting and relatable,. The difference isn't big, but S;G felt more like a rehash of the 'otaku-style-centered' VN with a more grounded and less original setting.

 

And for that, I'd say that Chaos;Head > Steins;Gate

[Tenkuru]

I was thinking about bashing Chaos;Head. Then I remembered that it's an unpopular opinions' thread.

[Zakamutt]

The reason why I think VNs (why not? I'm bored and some kind mod will move it eventually) aren't games stems mainly from not considering books to be games. At the very least, kinetic visual novels are not.

 

Consider a picture book, and fundamentally all parts except the soundtrack (and there are VNs without sound, though rare) of a VN are already included. The main difference is that instead of clicking your mouse, you flip the page. If you consider newfangled electronic reading devices such as Kindles et cetera this should be even clearer. Being on a computer does not a game make.

 

In the case of visual novels with choices you have somewhat of a point, if you consider branching-only (no stats systems, etc) CYOA books to be games. The main point, to me, though, is that calling visual novels games is utterly misleading as to what they are actually like.

 

so what would define a game according to these standards is the player's attitude, not the rules or outcomes.

since players' attitudes differ, this is inconsistent. Can't really approve of it.

 

///

 

...now, on the question on whether it matters if they are games or not, it really doesn't. Weeeeeeee!

[Ryan Ashfyre]

In the olden days, back when you didn't have an endless list of games to occupy your time, a game being a daunting task to complete was considered a good thing. 

 

I've my doubts that, beyond a small, vocal minority, people considered YU-NO to be a "good game" purely by virtue of its length and difficulty.

 

 

Rewrite is the best VN ever.

 

Also, Rewrite haters have 0 taste.

 

Given how I mentioned Rewrite in my previous comment, I'll take this opportunity to drown you all in a sea of text again bwahahahaha briefly explain my opinion on that.

 

By and large, I actually like it. Character-wise, Kotarou was pretty fun to watch (plus his lunchroom scenes with Lucia were freakin' hilarious) and the five heroines, while not all equal (Lucia was obviously out in front by a mile and anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know what the hell they're talking about has a different, but respected opinion) were at least entertaining to watch in their own ways.

 

Story-wise, the common route, along with the five main heroines' routes and the Moon route were all good. Now, admittedly, I do think that some could've been a lot better; Shizuru and Kotori's routes in particular. Both had endings that, while not terrible, came across as trying to appeal as more emotional than they actually were.

 

Shizuru's Route:

Kotarou turns into a TREE. I'm sorry, but that's out there and just plain weird, and not in a good way.

 

It also reinforces the impression I had of Kotarou throughout the whole route, in that he was something of a sacrifical lamb, all for the sake of Shizuru's personal development. And honestly, that really took away from any emotional investment I might've otherwise had for them.

 

If Kotarou were going to be a source of strength for her, then you've gotta do better than just having him throwing himself into the proverbial fire for her. That just ain't gonna cut it. I need more.

 

Kotori's Route: Kotori, while I like her character well enough, had probably the weakest route of the five, with an ending that just screamed

of a Madoka Magica rip-off, with all the "Don't give up", "Keep moving forward", "Do your best", etc, etc, etc.

 

And hey, I'm a fervent believer in all of that, hands down. That said however, you've got to earn that in a story. Kotori's route didn't do that, instead seeming to rely on gimmicks and cheap plot twists in order to try and force it out of us, and it didn't work.

 

All finally, we come to the Moon Route.

 

Honestly, I don't have a single major complaint about it. Essentially, it took all the best elements of what we'd seen so far and meshed 'em all together into a single, oh-your-god-the-world-is-on-fire-and-we've-gotta-save-it battle that brought our beloved characters back together again for a single, climactic ending. And it was great.

 

If Rewrite had just ended there, I would've been happy.

 

But noooooooooooooooo, the good people at Key just couldn't let it go and had to give us the absolute crapfest that was the Terra Route. That said, and to avoid another long rant on my part, I'm just going to list off everything that pissed me off about it one by one:

 

- Kotarou turned into a complete d***. Seriously. He was so light-hearted and confident about himself before. I enjoyed reading his POV and now I just can't stand him.

 

ALSO, I thought it was made painfully clear at the end of the Moon Route that

everyone's souls weren't going carried over to the new world,

so why did everything and everyone  - with the exception of Kotarou not having his "accident" - turn out exactly the same!?

 

- What the actual hell happened to Kotarou's powers? Sure, in all the preceeding routes, there were differences in developments and usage, but there was always a sense of consistency behind his power(s). In Terra though, things just go completely off the rails and throw you for a loop. It's like they just threw their hands up in the air and said: "F*** it. We need this to happen, so we're doing it," consistency be damned.

 

- Kagari. Again, we come back to the end of the Moon Route where

everyone's souls, memories and feelings are

not carried over

and yet Kotarou somehow still finds himself infatuated with this girl whom he knows nothing about? Um... okay, how do you square that with a character that has absolutely no recollection of anything that happened in Moon?

 

- We don't see Chihaya, Lucia, Shizuru or Akane (aside from a brief encounter, iirc) anywhere.

 

- The story. If the Moon Route was an exercise in how to do Rewrite's ending right, then Terra does the exact opposite. Instead of focusing on the characters and letting them develop the story, it's the story and extenuating circumstances that have everyone running around like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off, and it's damn confusing and unemotional gibberish to boot.

[SoulJustIn]

"Don't play. Seriously. This is one of those VNs that you play and feel like you wasted your time."

[Decay]

About Rewrite's Terra route:

Kotarou's power of manipulating his blood into ribbons comes from when Kotori uses Kagari to save him after he almost dies. This event leads into the common route and completely changes Kotarou's life. Even his personality. He dodges that near-death experience in the Terra route and as a result, his powers are different, his personality is different, etc. For all intents and purposes, he is a completely different character than the MC we had for the entire rest of the game. That is my main gripe with the Terra route. 

 

You should think of things as a branching timeline. Technically the world is getting remade each time, but Kagari is seeking out alternate timelines and all that, and the one she and Kotarou settles on has just one difference that causes things to branch out very differently. Everything resets from scratch on each reset, so their current souls and memories aren't carried over, but things develop as they historically have in the exact same way, so you can expect the exact same results, including the same people with the same personalities. Think of the first half of Terra almost as a prequel to the common route. The diverging point is when he encounters Kagari early and doesn't almost die. This branches the timeline so things end up as they do, and it's only until this point that things will be different. 

[Tenkuru]

I've my doubts that, beyond a small, vocal minority, people considered

YU-NO to be a "good game" urely by virtue of its length and difficulty.

 

 

 

Given how I mentioned Rewrite in my previous comment, I'll take this opportunity to drown you all in a sea of text again bwahahahaha briefly explain my opinion on that.

 

By and large, I actually like it. Character-wise, Kotarou was pretty fun to watch (plus his lunchroom scenes with Lucia were freakin' hilarious) and the five heroines, while not all equal (Lucia was obviously out in front by a mile and anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know what the hell they're talking about has a different, but respected opinion) were at least entertaining to watch in their own ways.

 

Story-wise, the common route, along with the five main heroines' routes and the Moon route were all good. Now, admittedly, I do think that some could've been a lot better; Shizuru and Kotori's routes in particular. Both had endings that, while not terrible, came across as trying to appeal as more emotional than they actually were.

 

Shizuru's Route:

Kotarou turns into a TREE. I'm sorry, but that's out there and just plain weird, and not in a good way.

[babiker]

Well, for one thing Ryan, good job for trying to give reasons for all of your points. I've noticed that I agree with most of what you pointed out, especially when it comes to Shizuru's route. But there are some things I just couldn't rap my head around, so I'll try and see if I can understand more.

 

 

of a Madoka Magica rip-off, with all the "Don't give up", "Keep moving forward", "Do your best", etc, etc, etc.

[Ryan Ashfyre]

No.

[Soulless Watcher]

D.C. ~Da Capo~ is a 3/10 for me. While no one is going to claim that it is a masterpiece, it seems at a glance to be a "standard" vn with all the general tropes n' junk...... but than you start unlocking routes. There are horrifiying implications that are simply glossed over and never really addressed.

 

I'll probably get alot of flak for this but Ever 17 is a 5/10 for me and I only finished one and a half routes.I read through Komachi Tsugumis' route without much issue... but than I hit Sora's route and it was soo boooooooooooring. From what I gather most of the fans of Ever 17 were completely blown away by the (final) ending, but that dosn't make a good visual novel in my opinion. A good visual novel should be engaging from start to finish and not feel like you are working for a payoff.

 

Clannad is a 5/10 for me and one of the few instances in which I would personally recomend the anime over the visual novel. It was just such a mixed bag for me with some routes that I enjoyed, some that pissed me off, and the worst were routes that felt like pure filler. The anime took the best parts of the visual novel and condensed it to a single unbloated narrative. Oh, and the standard bs everyone is happy end that key likes to shove down peoples throats.

 

If My Heart Had Wings is another 5/10 for me. Ok, setting aside all that crap with the all ages version which I think most people can agree is bs. Only two of the routes (Kotori's and Amane's) did I enojy. The twins were completely wasted and after Ageha's, which was my faveorite heroine at the start of the vn, I absolutely detested her and wanted to slap her. It didn't help that I'm not very interested in engineering so all that very in detailed info about the glider bored me, but still points to the creators for trying to teach people something. Also, no Kanako route

 

School days was a 6/10. The only reason it is not a 4/10 is because of its' pseudo anime style, which is wicked neat. However, you still have to play as Makoto... who is only able to be a complete a$$hole, a brain dead zombie, or the bare minimum required not to be a despicable piece of human trash.

 

Also, anyone who dosn't absolutely love MuvLuv Alternative dosn't have good taste

 

Also, Also, what is with the "it was good but not great" trend going on here we need reasons people.

[Soulless Watcher]

Avil, on 16 Feb 2015 - 6:42 PM, said:

I fail to see what's good about Comyu  (Kagome) and Hoshizora and all it's cast, I couldn't even play more than 3 hours to those two vn before hating every character, just to be sure I searched some spoiler about the endings and ended hating those two even more.

What a odd pair of visual novels to hate on, as a fan of both I would very much like to discuss in detail why you hate them as much as you do.... however, with a lack of reasons behind stated hate I am unable to do so.

[Satsuki]

 

With respect to Kotori's ending, the reason I call it a Madoka Magica rip-off is that, essentially,

it's an ending that reinforces the belief of never giving up and always always striving forward no matter what hardships may come your way.

 

Ah nope, that's not Madoka rip-off, that's what they teach you at school.