delapropia Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Today, i would like to discuss with other members about this topic: Do you feel that the test that the applicants have to take if they would like to apply for one of the positions( Translator, Quality Checker, Proofreader, etc ), are very difficult to understand( or poorly explained )? Or useless if I may add. I dont want to put down the effort of those who took it and were successful, absolutely no. I just want to hear other opinions about this, because in the eighty percent of the cases( or more ), these projects are no paid, you do it for FREE. I wont deny that the VN has to have quality( i wont read something that sucks ). But there are limits to excellence. Thats all, bye! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nosebleed Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Well, first of all, every project is different. This "test" you're talking about may not even exist in some projects whereas other projects like to test out their applicants, and there's no defined "guidelines" for this "test". If you want to test your applicants, you chose what method you want to use to evaluate them. But assuming you're referring to the projects that do test their applicants abilities, of course it's useful if you're trying to maintain a standard. You're recruiting anonymous people off the internet. You shouldn't wholeheartedly trust them without any previous testing or proof that they're able to produce any meaningful results. In fact people should be encouraged to do this if they don't want to face problems later on like translators backing out or finding that it's too difficult after all, etc. But at the end of the day, these are just fan projects, they don't require this kind of thing, so to each their own. delapropia 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nohman Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I'm not sure what what you mean by "the test," but speaking generally... If someone is going to put thousands of hours into a non-paid project, whatever standards a group wants to hold is their prerogative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firecat Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 well from my experience has a vn maker i cant make good english (see i did something wrong there), and most people are happy to help because it builds experience for future projects that might one day offer money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delapropia Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 I agree partially with the answers posted here. My main point was that, despite the fact you have to measure the abilities of those who want to join a project, you are doing this FOR FREE. You have to divide between your studies-work-social activities-girlfriend or boyfriend and the translation. So, if you are doing it without getting paid, why the difficulty of the test( like i said, the test is asking you for excellence! )? Im telling the truth when i said that i know some internet friends who applied for different positions on different projects, but they were rejected in all of them. They may not have studied English for 10 years, but they are responsible and have dedication. Sometimes, its better to have someone who is capable and responsible, that you know he will be there no matter what; rather than someone who excels at English but is lazy and irresponsible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astro Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Why would I hire someone who didn't even know how to do their job properly? Bakabutt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklord Rooke Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 My main point was that, despite the fact you have to measure the abilities of those who want to join a project, you are doing this FOR FREE. You have to divide between your studies-work-social activities-girlfriend or boyfriend and the translation. So, if you are doing it without getting paid, why the difficulty of the test( like i said, the test is asking you for excellence! )? There are many different reasons. One of which is that some people take a lot of pride in their work, so even if they ARE doing it for free they want it to be of decent quality. I should probably use an example. Many months ago I was head editor for a certain project and I made the test for editing positions VERY hard. Most people who rock up to apply for an editor's position are really trying to become a proof-reader, and I immediately dismissed all of them. When the leader of the group would hire editors indiscriminately I would get annoyed. In the 3 months I spent looking for other editors I found 1 other person I was happy with, and he was damn good. The reason for this is I'm passionate about writing and the English language. REALLY passionate. I've spent the last 10 years studying how authors write and how they build their style, and I don't like reading prose that is... dodgy. So... I wouldn't be able to work on a project unless it maintained a certain standard, it would just be disappointing and I wouldn't be able to stand it. Because of this I put in place high standards for the editing team that I KNOW pissed off people. There's another reason and that is reputation. If translators are looking to build a career in the future, I'm sure they wouldn't want people bringing down the quality of their project and affecting their reputation. The same applied to me as well. As a person who's looking to build a career in writing, and maybe VN development, I wouldn't want people bringing (way) down the quality of edits on a project I'm working on. Diamon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delapropia Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 @astro, thats the main point, you arent hiring anyone because, in most cases, you are doing it for free. If you tell me that you are getting paid for doing something, then yes, you are "hiring" someone, but thats not the case. Its like I told you "okay, you are an architect right? then, build my house without mistakes...but of course i wont pay you anything". Do i have the right to demand you anything? You are going to build my house for free! This is the same. Almost every project out there it has been done by fans, without seeing not a dollar nor a single coin. @Rooke, I understand your point. It depends on the personality, but in general the translations of visual novels require a lot of effort and quality. But I dont agree with you in one point: perfectionism doesnt exist. Of course you can have high standards( ive got them too ), but It would be best to have a decent team working with you( with standard quality and your members are responsible and capable ), rather than search for 3, 4 or 1 year for only one man/woman because "you are passionate". The reputation you are talking about matters too, but in general you translate 1 or 2 visual novel in your life( with luck ) and then you close the door( the only one that comes to my mind now is the translator of Monster Girl Quest. He translated the three chapters and then he stopped. Of course there´s a lot more ) The reputation could matter to those who are hired by companies(Aroduc for example ) or have been translating VN for years( Amaterasu, now the Grisaia trilogy, and a lot more ). The others doesnt care... their only purpose its to see the VN translated and let the world play it in English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 @delapropia: Have you ever been a leader of a group of randomly selected people? It's rather difficult to achieve anything in a timely manner when every member has a completely different level of skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nayleen Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Your last paragraph probably hits the nail on the head most, translation work for Japanese VNs is absolute niche work. For the most part the goal is getting the job done in a timely and mostly professional manner, with a wide array of intended effects, like making the game accessible to a wider audience, just getting a project onto your portfolio, or straight up recognition for it. The internet allows for a lot of opportunities for people to get their foot into the door of something they're really passionate about, be it writing, web development (heya~) or just experience working in a team. With that there should be quite the clear incentive for people to do a good job, and quite the reason for translation groups to have expectations at people who want to join their ranks. Nobody likes to waste time on something they work on in their free time because others don't pull their weight, bullshitted their way into a position, or slack off/drop out completely, for whatever reasons. It really comes down to working on something you love and wanting to see it to completion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corntastic Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I'm home now, and able to look into your test results in more detail. Would you like me to elaborate on why testing applicants is important for quality? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astro Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 "okay, you are an architect right? then, build my house without mistakes...but of course i wont pay you anything". Do i have the right to demand you anything? You are going to build my house for free! This is the same. Almost every project out there it has been done by fans, without seeing not a dollar nor a single coin. No one's demanding them to do anything - they're the ones applying and taking the test. Your logic is pretty dodgy. Bakabutt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delapropia Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 @corntastic, this topic is not for starting a fight with anyone. In my replies, you wont see insults or something like that, absolutely not. I appreciate the effort that you and the others have made through all this years. Its because of people like you that we can play VN in English. I started the topic to discuss this matter with everybody, so dont take it personally, because it was only a question i made here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astro Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Your question makes no sense, and no matter how many excuses you try to patch it up with, your wording still gives off the impression that you're salty from your unsuccessful job application and trying to take it out on someone. Maybe you should give your 'internet friends' the very same advice I'm about to give you: 不平ばかり言う。そう不機嫌になるな。正しい英語で話すことさえ出来ない君なんか、志願した仕事に就かないのは当たり前だ。 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delapropia Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 @astro, no one´s demanding anything. The applicants take the test and they pass, or fail, period. You asked why would you hire someone who didnt even know how to do their job properly, and i told you in my answer that hire is when you pay someone to do something. If there´s money involved, of course you are going to expect results. You have to be interviewed and all the stuff, but if you are doing it for free i think( its my opinion and i can be wrong of course ) that the "other part" cant hurry you for results. Sorry if i dont make any sense... sometimes i dont know how to explain myself. Dont worry man... nowadays it exist something called "translator" on the internet. Im following your example, translate this: "Sos uno mas que pulula en internet. Tu opinión carece de validez para mí. Si no te gusta mi opinión ni las "excusas" que, según tu hago porque supuestamente quedé enojado por no haber pasado la prueba, ni la de mis "amigos de internet" como despectivamente pusistes, te recomiendo esto: no me leas y punto" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astro Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 What does money have to do with the quality of work I expect from my colleagues? If I switch your reasoning around, you are suggesting that the only incentive for someone to get a job done right is money. Since you love analogies so much, would you want someone to burn your house down if they offered to do it for free? Or would you drink expired milk as long as it was free? No. People have standards in how they want things done, or what they are looking for. Being rejected for a position demonstrates that you don't meet that standard. Deal with it. Bakabutt and Nayleen 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delapropia Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 @astro, tenemos diferentes puntos de vistas, hasta culturalmente. Vos sos canadiense, yo de otra nacionalidad. Nunca nos vamos a poner de acuerdo. Tema cerrado. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delapropia Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 I dont have anything against @corntastic. In fact, his work is awesome. So, if you feel i have insulted you, im terribly sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corntastic Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Back to your question on tests then. If you honestly feel that reliability ranks higher than quality, then this is the classic example of translation criticism. I'm in the camp of "It should be more than just 'good enough.'" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delapropia Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 @corntastic , good quality is always welcome, it makes things easier when you read something, be a VN or something else. But quality has to go hand on hand with reliability. I appreciate that translator´s groups search the best applicant to cover "X" position, but sometimes it feels like they are searching for someone who is perfect. Of course they can choose someone according to their parameters( its their project and they can do whatever they want with it ), but someone who would like to apply to help you would feel like "shit, i dont want to be ashamed in front of this guys, its too difficult", but in some way or another you want to help them. We all make mistakes and we are far from perfection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corntastic Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 You know that a QCs job is to find and correct mistakes, right? What makes it harder than the VN? Please be specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astro Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 @corntastic , good quality is always welcome, it makes things easier when you read VN. But quality has to go hand on hand with reliability. I appreciate that translator´s groups search the best applicant to cover "X" position, but sometimes it feels like they are searching for someone who is perfect. I know i make mistakes and im far from perfection, but for example in your test, as far as i remember ,was much more difficult than the VN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delapropia Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 It depends on the Visual Novel, but sometimes the test its more difficult than the VN. And to astro... my dear friend, i already told you everything. Dont mind me, dont pay me any attention, dont waste your precious time reading my replies or whatever i have written. Oh! The TL team showed you my test results... POR DIOS... QUE MAMADERA... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corntastic Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Remember that whatever you've read of a VN, ours or others, has been translated, (hopefully!) edited, and QC'd prior to you even downloading it. If you've had the opportunity to work on a project, as you've stated, then perhaps you've been able to see lines that skip one of those steps. The lines from MY test were translated, in some cases edited, and then completely butchered for the purposes of testing applicants. Of course it's more difficult than a finalized VN. delapropia 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuee Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 @astro, no one´s demanding anything. The applicants take the test and they pass, or fail, period. You asked why would you hire someone who didnt even know how to do their job properly, and i told you in my answer that hire is when you pay someone to do something. If there´s money involved, of course you are going to expect results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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