Darklord Rooke Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Ahaha, people are probably being a little bit too critical. There’s really not many objective standards for good fiction. There’s a few guidelines people can follow, but at the end of the day it’s impossible to produce a scientific style checklist that categorises the attributes necessary for great fiction. Any list that is produced will come down to a matter of taste and preference and would just be a guide, which is what Clephas’ list is. It’s a detailed guide produced by a very knowledgeable and experienced member of the forums for those looking for suggestions on what to read, which should be useful to most of the people interested in Visual Novels. Whether it will be useful to any individual is up in the air though. Heh, Kaguya’s 50 translated VNs you must read before you die is of undeniable use to the majority of people, but I disagree with the majority of it *insert raspberry here.* That I disagree with it doesn’t make it of any less use to those being introduced to the genre, though. Anyway my advice to Clephas is to just trust your gut and not to worry too much about producing criteria, because any attempt to quantify what makes great fiction always comes unstuck. For example, your guidelines could be interpreted to mean Dostoevsky wrote great fiction but not Tolstoy, who’s works were not as intellectual. Also, there is an often recited story on the internet (which originated from Arthur C Clarke,) of how Hemingway bet he could write a 6 word novel. It can’t be verified, but the result “For sale: Baby shoes, never worn” (one of the best examples of flash fiction) is probably an excellent example of how great stories just can’t be quantified in any set way. For instance, I don't know if there are any OELVNs that could be considered kamige. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronopolis Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Edit: Also, my perspective is significantly different for a much simpler reason... reading speed. My reading speed is just so much faster that I can't understand at a gut level what it is like to take 100 hours to complete a VN the size of Muv-Luv Alternative (as an example). . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaguya Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Heh, Kaguya’s 50 translated VNs you must read before you die is of undeniable use to the majority of people, but I disagree with the majority of it *insert raspberry here.* That I disagree with it doesn't make it of any less use to those being introduced to the genre, though. Darklord Rooke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklord Rooke Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 What? But my opinion is objectively better than everyone else's, how dare you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monmon Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Woooot Sharin no Kuni is truly a KAMIGE~~~~ Although....I`m pretty surprised Hoshimeno got the title of Kamige, wait..is it because of this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinalChaos Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Well someone cannot possibly be fully objective. It is simply stupid to say that anything is completely objective. Something as basic as looking at a scenery(any beautiful sight like waterfall, mountains, etc.) is completely different for two people looking at it at the same time. So expecting full objectivity in a story is nigh impossible. First of all I added all the translated vns which I haven't read yet to my 'wishlist'. Since I don't pass the 100+ vn requirement (still at 20+) I can't ask you add my top vns. But I would like to know what you didn't like in them. My top vns are basically the ones I have rated 10/10 namely - Little Busters! and Steins;Gate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCM Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Kamige? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XReaper Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 glad that hapymaher made it onto the list, truly enjoyed the ride, totally not obsessed with yayoi..nonono... & for the term kamige, from my point of view its like the ultimate total package, or whatoever description may fit it better.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickFreja Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Currently reading Chusingura and totally agree this VN is amazing. Kinda surprised tho Dracu Riot listed as Kamige XReaper 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlessn1ght Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Eh? Why no Key? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clephas Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Why there aren't any Key games... my sense of humor? jk Honestly, none of Key's games really felt like a kamige to me... I'm also a bit amused that no one picked up on that until now, considering how many Western otakus are Key-fanatics. XReaper and starlessn1ght 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 y no subahibi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clephas Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Because I hated subahibi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clephas Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 I should clarify about Key's games. When it comes to technical issues, I don't think anyone does non-ero VNs quite as well as Key does. However, while all their works are memorable, I don't recall ever being completely satisfied with one of their VNs, except Planetarian (and that is because Planetarian is designed to be self-contained). That isn't to say they aren't enjoyable or amusing, because they are. They are the template for the nakige sub-genre for a reason. However, the tendency toward an overemphasis on adorable-ness has a tendency to weaken the actual storytelling, and there are frequently plotholes plaguing at least some of the paths in each. If you asked me 'did this stimulate my emotions' I can always say yes with them (except Rewrite), but I've yet to ever have my intellect stimulated even slightly by a Key game. Air had some interesting aspects, but the anime was actually better at bringing those aspects out than the VN, which is kind of sad. Edit: It doesn't help that I've run across VNs that do emotionality better in the last few years while also stimulating intellect. Narcosis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ホアー ビち Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 i would like to ask why s;g is not considered a kamige. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparteh Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 I have to say that this is one amazing list. It turns out that most of stuff I read/plan to read actually matched this list. Though I don't really have the right to suggest anything because I don't have 100+ VN under my belt, but I would still like to ask a question. Why nothing was included from such powerhouses like Steins;Gate, Umineko or Baldr Sky Dive franchises? Considering their ratings on VNDB they belong to top 10. Considering popularity - they are very iconic and belong to most popular and respected franchises list. Quality wise they at least were equal or higher than some of entries on this list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narcosis Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 9 hours ago, Sparteh said: I have to say that this is one amazing list. It turns out that most of stuff I read/plan to read actually matched this list. Though I don't really have the right to suggest anything because I don't have 100+ VN under my belt, but I would still like to ask a question. Why nothing was included from such powerhouses like Steins;Gate, Umineko or Baldr Sky Dive franchises? Considering their ratings on VNDB they belong to top 10. Considering popularity - they are very iconic and belong to most popular and respected franchises list. Quality wise they at least were equal or higher than some of entries on this list. Iconic doesn't mean good. Not a single one of them has truly what it takes to be considered a Kamige. Granted, S;G is preety close, but still falls flat. That said, as Clephas mentioned above - for one to be a kamige does not necesarilly mean it has to be super entertaining. That goes the other way around, as well - a vn does not have to be a kamige to be truly entertaining. In the end, "kamige" is just a tag, people tend to stick to games they feel to have something more than just being plain entertainment carriers. Some games even do have artistic value. Does that mean they will be trully great as games, though? Not necesarilly. Beyond being able to distinguish between those factors, one can't forget that the most important thing is it's own, personal enjoyment that comes from reading these games and other people's guides shouldn't ever cloud your own judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkaw Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) Tsukihime really impressed me. I'm really sensitive to graphics and musics in general, and in this aspect... it's actually pretty mediocre (except some CG here and there, but there's not many). But, it must be one of my favorite works of all times (doesn't mean it must be one of the best for everyone, just for me). Well, I don't know much about VNs yet so I don't feel qualified to talk about quality of VNs in general, but I sure love Tsukihime. Edited February 13, 2017 by Pinkaw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clephas Posted February 13, 2017 Author Share Posted February 13, 2017 Just to be clear, I regret making this particular thread... I can't help but wince looking back on when I made it. While the VNs named are all excellent in their own ways, my definition of a 'kamige' has gotten a lot stricter since then... in the sense that I'm no longer willing to merely name games I love as kamige, hahaha.... Dergonu and Pinkaw 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparteh Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 2 hours ago, Clephas said: Just to be clear, I regret making this particular thread... I can't help but wince looking back on when I made it. While the VNs named are all excellent in their own ways, my definition of a 'kamige' has gotten a lot stricter since then... in the sense that I'm no longer willing to merely name games I love as kamige, hahaha.... Isn't that totally normal? The more one is exposed to something, the more familiar one gets with it, therefore one can judge better. For example, when I first watched anime I considered some shows like Infinite Stratos to be nearly masterpieces. The more I watched, the less I considered it to be good. Now, when I am getting close to 800 completed anime mark I consider it to be nearly trash (though I keep kind ratings on MAL)... I even want to say that I feel nearly shameful for my past opinion about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamysyu Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 13 hours ago, Narcosis said: Iconic doesn't mean good. Not a single one of them has truly what it takes to be considered a Kamige. Granted, S;G is preety close, but still falls flat. That said, as Clephas mentioned above - for one to be a kamige does not necesarilly mean it has to be super entertaining. That goes the other way around, as well - a vn does not have to be a kamige to be truly entertaining. In the end, "kamige" is just a tag, people tend to stick to games they feel to have something more than just being plain entertainment carriers. Some games even do have artistic value. Does that mean they will be trully great as games, though? Not necesarilly. Beyond being able to distinguish between those factors, one can't forget that the most important thing is it's own, personal enjoyment that comes from reading these games and other people's guides shouldn't ever cloud your own judgement. Well, isn't this still too subjective? Well, with my VN count I'm not really qualified to comment on this list, but even I can see that that there are some titles which include some major problems. Major enough to override all the artistic value they might have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkaw Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 It's totally subjective actually. And like he said, the author regret making this thread yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clephas Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 My definition of a kamige is 'technically superlative+enjoyable'. Either one alone isn't going to be good enough to get that label from me anymore... Dreamysyu and Narcosis 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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