Moeges

[Clephas]

Generally speaking, it is possible that a high-level translator will work on a moege.  The thing is, most wouldn't bother.  The sheer number of untranslated kamige out there (most of which aren't moege) means that most high-level translators are only interested in translating those.  Just in the past seven years, I've found twenty-four kamige that haven't been translated yet... and it isn't like I've read everything from 2007-2011, either.  That is not even mentioning VNs from before that that were masterpieces, either. 

 

Now, if you had truly great VNs to pick from, at least some of which you are already in love with, why would you pick a new shiny moege with no real content beyond ichaicha and cuteness?  I certainly wouldn't. 

 

That said, I'm frequently exasperated at the way people start tl projects for new VNs without even knowing what they are like.  The first rule of a good fantranslator is know the material before  you jump in... so they look insane to me.  Of course, that is marginally better than just editing Google Translate results on a more complex VN (all those Eushully projects) and acting as if you've done a good job.

 

Edit:  Also, why would you want to eat grocery-store chocolate cake when a homemade one made by a genius pastry-chef that happens to be your imouto waiting for you at home? 

[Kaguya]

 

Edit:  Also, why would you want to eat grocery-store chocolate cake when a homemade one made by a genius pastry-chef that happens to be your imouto waiting for you at home? 

[Clephas]

Though it is an old one, Haruka ni Aogi, Uruwashi no is a kamige and a moege.  Actually, it has a lot of nakige to it, though it is significantly different from Key's approach.  

 

There are others... but they usually have that 'extra something' that takes them slightly outside of what you would consider a straight moege or charage.  So does Uruwashi no, for that matter.  'Straight moege' don't become kamige because there is no content to make them one, lol.  Since so much of the non-action genres of VNs were evolved at least partially from moege, the result is that most kamige share a moege's visual and voice elements, while also possessing a story that surpasses anything a moege can produce. 

 

The first moege started coming out before the turn of the century, though they didn't really gain speed until Kanon's release created the first hit nakige and caused their popularity to explode.  VN companies like Nitroplus, Light or Akabeisoft2 that don't possess a moege origin (though Akabeisoft2 does sometimes make charage) are rare.  Since, outside those few companies, art-styles and design styles are heavily influenced by moege, it is virtually impossible to escape moege influence in VNs, though straight moege are going extinct (replaced by the charage, or the character-focused moege).  For instance, both of my candidates for VN of the Year 2013 (Hapymaher and Komorebi no Nostalgica) had moege influences in their art-styles and designs... but the actual content was what was going on was so far beyond a moege that there was no comparison. 

 

That said, there are a few nakige and charage kamige... they are just few and far between. Otome ga Boku ni Koishiteiru 2, for instance... is definitely a charage variant (albeit with a much better-written story than the usual), and yet it manages to reach kamige level (don't mistake it for the third-rate original game).  Shiro no Pikapika Ohoshi-sama is as moe as you can get, and it is definitely an example of a soft VN that is a kamige (my relatively low rating for it is a matter of personal taste rather than a statement of quality, in this case). 

 

Edit:  Also, Tayutama.

[Decay]

Generally speaking, it is possible that a high-level translator will work on a moege.  The thing is, most wouldn't bother.  The sheer number of untranslated kamige out there (most of which aren't moege) means that most high-level translators are only interested in translating those.  Just in the past seven years, I've found twenty-four kamige that haven't been translated yet... and it isn't like I've read everything from 2007-2011, either.  That is not even mentioning VNs from before that that were masterpieces, either. 

 

Now, if you had truly great VNs to pick from, at least some of which you are already in love with, why would you pick a new shiny moege with no real content beyond ichaicha and cuteness?  I certainly wouldn't. 

 

That said, I'm frequently exasperated at the way people start tl projects for new VNs without even knowing what they are like.  The first rule of a good fantranslator is know the material before  you jump in... so they look insane to me.  Of course, that is marginally better than just editing Google Translate results on a more complex VN (all those Eushully projects) and acting as if you've done a good job.

 

Edit:  Also, why would you want to eat grocery-store chocolate cake when a homemade one made by a genius pastry-chef that happens to be your imouto waiting for you at home? 

 

It's all relative, one man's trash is another man's treasure. Although looking back at the moege that has been translated thus far, none have been by particularly respected translators. The biggest name translator who did a moege was perhaps TakaJun who did Wanko to Kurasou, although his abilities are up for debate. Really though, if you're a top-tier translator, you're probably doing top-tier games. It's the mid-tier translators like TakaJun who could go either way. 

[zoom909]

I would surely be interested to know how terms such as "kamige" and "top-tier" are defined...  Otherwise I'm inclined to ignore any statements using such terms...

[Clephas]

Narrative quality, dialogue quality, character development, quality of presentation, audio (music and voices), and visual (tachie, CGs, backgrounds, etc).  These are the basic elements of a VN.

 

A kamige is basically a VN where either all or at least three of these aspects exceed the base level of quality by a large degree (though this is basically an objective observation of a subjective phenomenon, so it isn't absolute).  It is difficult for a moege to become a kamige because the narration, dialogue, and presentation tend to be weak in moege (this is endemic to them as a whole).  Not only that, since most moege companies tend to limit the number of non-H CGs, the visual aspects are dependent on a few CGs for each heroine and their tachie. 

 

Since VA quality is generally the same across almost all commercial VNs and the same goes for musical quality (with a few exceptions), there is generally no way to stand out from the rest with audio, either.  So what do you have to create a kamige?  You have presentation (incidentally, even moreso than visuals, Favorite does this really well), character development (the reason why charage have almost completely replaced common moege), narration, and dialogue.  Generally speaking, a kamige will excel in at least two of these four areas, in addition to audio and visual aspects. 

 

Again, this is an objective observation based on experience of a subjective phenomenon, so there are going to be exceptions (Tsukihime is one). 

 

Does that answer your question,　素人君?

[Decay]

Regarding my use of "top tier", I dunno, it's honestly a pretty subjective viewpoint. I was just using it to describe the best/most respected translators (e.g. Makoto or Koestl). Also I feel like we've been distracted from my initial point, which was 1) there is a crapton of moege being translated these days which represents a major change from years past, and most of it is coming from this forum, and 2) if there's a reason for this and it's not coincidence, maybe it's because the general attitude here allows people who have only been learning the language for a short time to make serious attempts at translating VNs, and most Moege is on a level that's achievable for these newbie translators. If this isn't it, then I wonder if there's another reason for this.

[Clephas]

Incidentally, there are existing examples of kamige with 'accessible' Japanese for beginners.  Draculius comes to mind, as does Uruwashi no.  However, there are very few writers who can give 'life' to a great VN while limiting themselves to language that can be understood by a beginner.

[zoom909]

Narrative quality, dialogue quality, character development, quality of presentation, audio (music and voices), and visual (tachie, CGs, backgrounds, etc).  These are the basic elements of a VN.

 

A kamige is basically a VN where either all or at least three of these aspects exceed the base level of quality by a large degree (though this is basically an objective observation of a subjective phenomenon, so it isn't absolute).  It is difficult for a moege to become a kamige because the narration, dialogue, and presentation tend to be weak in moege (this is endemic to them as a whole).  Not only that, since most moege companies tend to limit the number of non-H CGs, the visual aspects are dependent on a few CGs for each heroine and their tachie. 

 

Since VA quality is generally the same across almost all commercial VNs and the same goes for musical quality (with a few exceptions), there is generally no way to stand out from the rest with audio, either.  So what do you have to create a kamige?  You have presentation (incidentally, even moreso than visuals, Favorite does this really well), character development (the reason why charage have almost completely replaced common moege), narration, and dialogue.  Generally speaking, a kamige will excel in at least two of these four areas, in addition to audio and visual aspects. 

 

Again, this is an objective observation based on experience of a subjective phenomenon, so there are going to be exceptions (Tsukihime is one). 

 

Does that answer your question,　素人君?

[Clephas]

But no, I'm not yet convinced that you aren't simply biased against moege...

Sorry, I'm going to be a tough nut to crack...

Sorry, but if you want perfectly objective definitions, you shouldn't be dealing with fiction.

 

In any case, I have no interest in trying to evangelize my own definitions.  If you feel I'm wrong, you are free to feel that way.  I'm not bashing moege, they bash themselves.

 

Edit:  Also, I didn't say it was impossible for a moege to result in a kamige.  It is just incredibly rare, in proportion to the share of the non-nukige VN market they make up.   The limitations inherent in the genre make it difficult for them to escape being 'cute, brainless, and empty'.  Ones that do generally qualify as charage or nakige.