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54 members have voted

  1. 1. How do you feel about moeges?

    • I like them.
      24
    • I dislike them.
      8
    • I don't feel strongly about them at all.
      15
    • Fifth choice just so I can tell my friends and family that I picked the alternate option in a pool.
      1
    • I love them so much I'm going to marry the concept and elope to the moon.
      1000000000000005
  2. 2. Do you think they have value to our hobby?

    • I think they're poison for VNs.
      2
    • They're the best thing that ever happened and I don't play any other type of VN.
      5
    • Slightly. The pros outweigh the cons for a small amount.
      35
    • Nah, though they're not the worst thing either.
      11

This poll is closed to new votes


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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7ARsYs-Gq0

 

Using YuzuSoft's as example, moe characters are everything in their VNs. I think they exist to serve the fantasies of Otakus -- cat/dog-girls, majo, miko, childhood-friend, tsundere, you name it!

 

They are kitschy essentially just like some animations, where just few heroines and protagonist talking with each other. 

 

As a part of Otaku-culture, they are valuable to those who like Japanese anime-style characters.

 

Even though they are repetitive and cliched, it's not a bad thing if they can fill up your fantasies and bring you a lot of amused moments.

 

 Yet, just like what Decay has said, I also lose interest in them pretty quickly because the immunity against the magic of "moe" grows quickly with every finished moege.  

 

 

 

 

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I shrug so heavily to moege that I often dislocate my shoulder because of it. Visual novels are barely a thing, why should we try to protect the medium from stories people might deem of low artistic value? In any case I wouldn't want visual novels to be respected if this means refraining from pleasing all kinds of people all around the world.

 And

Heh, I'm reminded of the book market here. Literature gets a lot of respect. They're serious novels for serious people and all those who wish to hold these books must first approach in a respectful manner, make sure your hands are clean, and support them gently and reverently in your arms. Despite this, I've read that if you're a literature author all you have to do is move 7,000 hardcover copies of your literature novel and you're a bona fide God-send. The figure is so low because literature doesn't sell that many copies.

 

Genre fiction, on the other hand, is looked down upon a little in the book world. They're not novels for thinkers, they're just for entertainment. But most people work, and after they've had a 9-7 slog of tedious office work, shouty bosses, smarmy work colleagues and hostile customers, most people just want to come home and be entertained. So it's not a surprise that genre fiction sells so MUCH. And it shouldn't be a surprise that romance books and sci-fi/fantasy novels are right up the top.

 

Not allowing genres because they don't have high artistic value is a good way to kill off a story-telling medium, really.

 

As my new member title suggest (finally got 500 post counts :D) my view is a lot more staunch and conservative. I wouldn't have a problem with genre fiction, moege's, and other such things if they made up the minority of the market. In my mind these works are like dessert, really nice every once in a while after a main course, but they should not be the main course itself. Works that are more intellectual in nature, I think serve a higher value and should make up the majority of the market, unfortunately it is the other way around. Reactionary and intellectual works make up the minority of the market, and are thus treated as a dessert instead. The only positive about this, is that this then incentivises me to reread and further appreciate such things more. But aside from the rare occasion, I would rather reread something with a lot of thought put into it, then read pure entertainment fiction. I emphasized pure because literature is not boring, it is entertaining as well, but it is also so much more. Ultimately it comes down to this for me. Would I rather read something that challenges my perspectives, biases, and makes me think about my views, and is thus memorable; or do I want to spend time with something forgettable but keeps me temporary entertained? I personally almost always choose the former.  

Keep in mind that when I use the word literature, I am also referring to thought provoking VNs as well. 

So there is my unpopular opinion on the matter. Don't lynch me please!

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I wouldn't have a problem with genre fiction, moege's, and other such things if they made up the minority of the market. In my mind these works are like a dessert, really nice every once in a while after a main course, but they should not be the main course itself. Works that are more intellectual in nature, I think serve a higher value and should make up the majority of the market, unfortunately it is the other way around.

As I said, it would be wrong to say that genre fiction doesn't have intellectual works. You know that, you keep defending anime as a media having works of high artistic values. Similarly, a book of science-fiction like Flowers for Algernon is just as mind-blowing as a classic like The Stranger.

 

Other than that I agree with your position. Between a work that brings only entertainment and a work that brings much more than that (which still includes entertainment) it should be obvious which one is more interesting.

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As my new member title suggest (finally got 500 post counts :D) my view is a lot more staunch and conservative. I wouldn't have a problem with genre fiction, moege's, and other such things if they made up the minority of the market. In my mind these works are like a dessert, really nice every once in a while after a main course, but they should not be the main course itself. Works that are more intellectual in nature, I think serve a higher value and should make up the majority of the market, unfortunately it is the other way around. Reactionary and intellectual works make up the minority of the market, and are thus treated as a dessert instead. The only positive about this, is that this then incentivises me to reread and further appreciate such things more. But aside from the rare occasion, I would rather reread something with a lot of thought put into it, then read pure entertainment fiction. I emphasized pure because literature is not boring, it is entertaining as well, but it is also so much more. Ultimately it comes down to this for me. Would I rather read something that challenges my perspectives, biases and makes me think about my views, and is thus memorable; or do I want to spend time with something forgettable but keeps me temporary entertained? I personally almost always choose the former.  

So there is my unpopular opinion on the matter. Don't lynch me please!      

Not going to lynch you or anything (At least you're not some Hayao Miyazaki), but the fact that your opinion is the unpopular one is probably the reason there's few of these. (By unpopular I don't mean "wrong", I just mean in terms of gross adherents)

It's all about supply and demand in the market's eyes.

 

The way I see it there is an equal place for both in the market but obviously the demanding part of the market is victorious.

Wether this is negative or positive depends on the side you're on.

 

I think, throughout history, people/content that has actually blown people's minds are few and far between, so it's not like VNs would escape that trend.

 

I think of it this way, if there's few masterpieces in a sea of mediocrity, they become more valuable as opposed to having masterpieces all the time.

Or rather, is a sea full of masterpieces that challenge ideals an actual masterpiece or would it become generic and cliche? (3deep5me)

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As I said, it would be wrong to say that genre fiction doesn't have intellectual works. You know that, you keep defending anime as a media having works of high artistic values. Similarly, a book of science-fiction like Flowers for Algernon is just as mind-blowing as a classic like The Stranger.

 

Other than that I agree with your position. Between a work that brings only entertainment and a work that brings much more than that (which still includes entertainment) it should be obvious which one is more interesting.

 

Fair point, let me clarify a bit. When I use the term "genre fiction", I refer to works that are defined by their genre, rather than doing more with it. Every story to an extent is classified under some genre, but if the work is good, the genre it is part of doesn't matter anymore. I don't like space operas, but since Legend of the Galactic Heroes was so much more I didn't care what genre it was. 

 

I think of it this way, if there's few masterpieces in a sea of mediocrity, they become more valuable as opposed to having masterpieces all the time.

Or rather, is a sea full of masterpieces that challenge ideals an actual masterpiece or would it become generic and cliche? (3deep5me)

 

I agree with this actually, I suppose too much of a good thing is a bad thing. Too much moege is bad, and too many masterpieces would also be kind of bad. 

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I think of it this way, if there's few masterpieces in a sea of mediocrity, they become more valuable as opposed to having masterpieces all the time.

Or rather, is a sea full of masterpieces that challenge ideals an actual masterpiece or would it become generic and cliche? (3deep5me)

 

 

I agree with this actually, I suppose too much of a good thing is a bad thing. Too much moege is bad, and too many masterpieces would also be kind of bad. 

 

It's actually impossible to have a sea of masterpieces. Aren't they defined by being of outstanding quality?

 

I don't get both of you, though. If the quality of every single work was so high that creating masterpieces would be impossible, I see nothing to lose. You also can have moege masterpieces, by the way (I won't say I know any, though).

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It's actually impossible to have a sea of masterpieces. Aren't they defined by being of outstanding quality?

 

I don't get both of you, though. If the quality of every single work was so high that creating masterpieces would be impossible, I see nothing to lose. You also can have moege masterpieces, by the way (I won't say I know any, though).

I think the point was that quality (in this case) is a relative trait, if everything has the same quality (even if this quality is what we today assume to be high quality), the value of it to us would probably dilute itself.

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I think the point was that quality (in this case) is a relative trait, if everything has the same quality (even if this quality is what we today assume to be high quality), the value of it to us would probably dilute itself.

That's just a wild guess, though. For example, the last 15 VNs I read in JP were all kamiges, and they were all incredibly amazing to me (I barely even read anything tld this year). 

Their impact hadn't diminished in the slightest because the previous works I read were also amazing, and a lot of people in the forum won't even go as far as 15 VNs anyway (specially not in a short amount of time). I think it'd be fine.

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That's just a wild guess, though. For example, the last 15 VNs I read in JP were all kamiges, and they were all incredibly amazing to me (I barely even read anything tld this year). 

Their impact hadn't diminished in the slightest because the previous works I read were also amazing, and a lot of people in the forum won't even go as far as 15 VNs anyway (specially not in a short amount of time).

I believe that's possible, but you didn't take into account that you're very aware of what "bad quality" is, you've read over 300 VNs.

Even if you've forgotten about all the crappy VNs, you're aware of what traits make a bad quality VN, therefore it is only natural you can find high quality VNs to still be high quality.

 

In the scenario I pointed out I was assuming something on the long run.

Of course it's hypothetical, I can't physically show you proof, but if we magically had every VN be of high quality (as in, assume the traits we consider today to be of high quality), in the matter of some years people would just be used to those VNs and see them as "regular" things (not high quality things) and thus their value would, with the course of time, diminish, since it's something they already expect/are used to. Kind of like Christmas presents.

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I believe that's possible, but you didn't take into account that you're very aware of what "bad quality" is, you've read over 300 VNs.

Even if you've forgotten about all the crappy VNs, you're aware of what traits make a bad quality VN, therefore it is only natural you can find high quality VNs to still be high quality.

 

Yeah, understanding what bad quality is, is actually really important. It allows you to properly evaluate what "good" is. Reading 15 great stories in a row does surprise me (I'm happy for you though), but you can only know they are great by knowing what bad is. You appreciate good even more by knowing it is not bad. Too an extent... I also do agree that good is also good regardless. I swear I was arguing some point of view a few posts ago but now I am just confused, lol.

 

I think my confusion stems from the fact that "good" is a combination of inherit goodness, but also relative goodness. Something is perceived as great, or masterpiece, by both being of high quality, but also by being noticeably better when compared to other works. Hence the reason VNDB recommends you have no more than 3 VNs rated a 10.   

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I believe that's possible, but you didn't take into account that you're very aware of what "bad quality" is, you've read over 300 VNs.

Even if you've forgotten about all the crappy VNs, you're aware of what traits make a bad quality VN, therefore it is only natural you can find high quality VNs to still be high quality.

 

In the scenario I pointed out I was assuming something on the long run.

Of course it's hypothetical, I can't physically show you proof, but if we magically had every VN be of high quality (as in, assume the traits we consider today to be of high quality), in the matter of some years people would just be used to those VNs and see them as "regular" things (not high quality things) and thus their value would, with the course of time, diminish, since it's something they already expect/are used to. Kind of like Christmas presents.

 

I guess that's a possibility. This just made me a imagine a review like: "That last fight scene was so realistic, and the tension between the characters could be felt in the air. I liked every single one of them, and even the villains were so human. The music that accompanied the scene was perfect to help convey the message of the story, and I feel like my view of the world has changed because of this work... 4/10, wouldn't read again" 

 

Though if it really got to that point, reviews would probably be different.

 

Well, we can't test that, so it's kind of a moot point :P

 

Back to moeges, some people do think some of those serve for a "healing" purpose after reading some high-quality works. 

I don't do that very often, 

 

Yeah, understanding what bad quality is, is actually really important. It allows you to properly evaluate what "good" is. Reading 15 great stories in a row does surprise me (I'm happy for you though), but you can only know they are great by knowing what bad is. You appreciate good even more by knowing it is not bad. Too an extent... I also do agree that good is also good regardless. I swear I was arguing some point of view a few posts ago but now I am just confused, lol.

 

I think my confusion stems from the fact that "good" is a combination of inherit goodness, but also relative goodness. Something is perceived as great, or masterpiece, by both being of high quality, but also by being noticeably better when compared to other works. Hence the reason VNDB recommends you have no more than 3 VNs rated a 10.   

Another example would be my very first VNs, tsukihime, fsn and aselia, if I remember correctly. They were very good, and I was pleasantly surprised by the quality (which I thought to be common of VNs at the time).

 

...At that point in time I was already a bibliophile and had read a great many deal of awful books, so it could be that too. I don't think we can test any of this, though. It'd be interesting to get a random newcomer who just started out without ever reading a VN before and making a list of the best VNs out there to check out what he'll think. 

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I do find moege and light hearted stuff to be "healing".

It's also a reason why slice of life is my favorite genre in anime.

The real world already has enough bad things, I don't like transfering that to fiction too much I guess.

 

Not to say a good drama is bad or something, I like my fair share of sad stories as well, but cute light hearted things always serve their purpose for me.

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...At that point in time I was already a bibliophile and had read a great many deal of awful books, so it could be that too. I don't think we can test any of this, though. It'd be interesting to get a random newcomer who just started out without ever reading a VN before and making a list of the best VNs out there to check out what he'll think. 

 

Well, I can be an example somewhat. When I first got into VNs I read Princess Waltz fairly early on and thought it was like the best thing ever. I initially rated it like an 8 or 9 on VNDB. I recently rediscovered my vndb account and had to edit a lot of my previous ratings due to having read a lot more (and better) VNs since. Now Princess Waltz has a 5.  

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Well, I can be an example somewhat. When I first got into VNs I read Princess Waltz fairly early on and thought it was like the best thing ever. I initially rated it like an 8 or 9 on VNDB. I recently rediscovered my vndb account and had to edit a lot of my previous ratings due to having read a lot more (and better) VNs since. Now Princess Waltz has a 5.  

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I definitely agree with the "healing" aspect of moege. After reading something pretty heavy (heavy meaning dark in this case) like Saya no Uta or Kara no Shoujo, I kinda need a break from the heaviness with something a little more lighthearted. 

 

For me it doesn't come down to quality per se, rather it is more just about what I have been reading recently. I can go through five or six absolutely amazing VNs, but once I hit something that is heavier than most, I generally need something really lighthearted like most moege to get me going again. Sure it is in abundance, but that really isn't a problem really.

 

I think one can compare moege to teen fiction. With teen fiction, while most are not necessarily bad, most are not necessarily good either. Just kinda... meh. Cookie cutter is probably the best term. I feel like the same can be said for moege. Plus you will have the hordes of people who do not care and consume both anyway, as they are both in abundance. Of course, there are some exceptions.

 

I personally much prefer reading something with a higher quality than moege. They are just a nice way to lighten things up in my opinion.

 

 

... Doesn't mean I don't like them though. Oh no no no. I definitely still like them. I actually kinda love them, as they are perfect for what I use them for. ^^

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There are times when one is in the mood for serious stories and times when one is in the mood for lighthearted stories.

I am always in the mood for serious stories.

As an elitist PC gamer (with *excellent* refined tastes, mind you) I would never settle for inferior products like consoles for my gaming needs. The same applies to VNs- They are visual NOVELS and thus I expect PLOT- I would never settle for subpar storylines whose only intention is to rub cuteness all over me and-

I like moege  :kosame: 

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There are times when one is in the mood for serious stories and times when one is in the mood for lighthearted stories.

I am always in the mood for serious stories.

As an elitist PC gamer (with *excellent* refined tastes, mind you) I would never settle for inferior products like consoles for my gaming needs. The same applies to VNs- They are visual NOVELS and thus I expect PLOT- I would never settle for subpar storylines whose only intention is to rub cuteness all over me and-

I like moege  :kosame:

An accurate depiction of most people who enjoy putting up a front.  :illya: You have my praise.  

 

As I said earlier, I like moege.

Too much of anything is never good. Too much moege isn't good. The same happens with everything else I think.

Noone can keep pulling masterpieces out of their arse. 

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Looking at just the first page of the fan projects forum: Konosora TLC patch, Ushinawareta Mirai wo Motomete, Witch's Garden, Nursery Rhyme, Majikoi kind of (I think they focus on absurdist/slapstick comedy more than moe), SakuSaku, KoiNatsu, Amairo Islenauts, Noble Works, Clover Days, Magical Marriage Lunatics, Hoshimemo fandisc, LovelyxCation (moe dating sim?), and Aokana. So much moege. There's a definite bias here, but I think that's fine. Some of those are most probably going to disappoint me, some I may never try, but several of them seem nice.

 

I think this bias betrays the spirit of the forum, where people are generally more willing to translate VNs with a looser understanding of Japanese than what VN translators used to have. Fuwanovel seems to enable that sort of behavior, and moege is right up their alley since it's easy to understand with translation assisting tools.

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Moeges, huh?

 

I don't know man.

I don't really mind if the visual novel just showcases cute girls or a good story.

I'll read it and finish it, no matter what it is. The reason being my belief that you can't truly see something for what it is without going through its entirety. The same applies to entertainment mediums. Of course, if it's downright bad, then I can't possibly finish it, right? Nope. I'd still finish it, then cringe.

A good example would be Wanko to Kurasou, I guess. I mean, it already plucked my heartstrings, then you needed to shift into that? The focus becomes that? My god. The disappointment. While I do not mind that, the very fact that that has occupied almost the entirety of the near-end part of that visual novel left me disappointed. To think that I spared my tears for something that would eventually develop to something focusing on that...

Don't get me wrong. I loved how cute the dogs were. It's just that it's like you expected something to taste like strawberries, only to realize that it tasted like bacon. I believe it's called tongue-cringe. Or whatever.

 

Besides rare cases like that, where I get so disappointed that I don't finish all the routes, I seldom hate on moeges. Rather, I can't remember the last time I hated something. Yeah. That's about it. I mean, I can't hate something having cute girls.

 

...Or maybe it's 'I can't hate cute girls because muh libido'?

I don't really know at this point.

 

One thing remains true though. I like moeges, since there are cute girls. I don't think they do any harm to the VN industry, just like how vegetables don't do any harm to the fruits they get tucked into with. And I do believe they're great to read at times, though I wouldn't constantly read moeges. I mean, they get boring and stuff. Sometimes, cute girls are not what I seek. Sometimes, you need more than cute girls.

 

Yeah. I like cute things.  :sachi:

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Looks like most of us can agree that the cuteness & lightheartedness & no-plotness of moege has its place in the world of visual novels~

But I wouldn't mind to read a moege that actually has an emphasis on 'story' (cuteness + story? best of both worlds yes yes?)

 

It's actually impossible to have a sea of masterpieces. Aren't they defined by being of outstanding quality?

 

I don't get both of you, though. If the quality of every single work was so high that creating masterpieces would be impossible, I see nothing to lose. You also can have moege masterpieces, by the way (I won't say I know any, though).

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But I wouldn't mind to read a moege that actually has an emphasis on 'story':

 

Maybe not masterpiece, but can you suggest any 'very good' moeges then?  :kosame:

If you're looking for some emphasis on story in a game that still focuses around it's characters, it's probably a charage.

 

Gah... I'm very weak on the moege field. I started out with exactly the type of VN I liked, and while I tried out a bit of everything, I realized sooner than later that moeges don't work out too well for me. 

 

Looking at your VNDB list... You've read most of the good tld stuff of the type you like, I think (though your list is pretty short). I know, you should try out Katahane. I think you'll love it. 

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