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Fan Translation Roles and Tips


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Hello!

Makise and I started an otome visual novel translation group, but we are still not familiar with how to handle one



  • What's the difference between Editors and Hackers?
  • Does extracting game script count as hacking?
  • In your opinion, How many translators are needed to translate a game?
  • What are your tips in order to maintain/manage a translation group?

I'd appreciate the help :D/>

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  • Editors edit scripts into grammatically correct sentences after it's been trans'd and TLC'd. Hackers handle stuff like extracting game scripts, repacking, etc.
  • Yes.
  • It really depends on how many you want since people have different translation styles. Maybe someone with more scene experience could answer this one?
  • Hmmm... Definitely communication so there's no misunderstandings or anything (basing this off of the time I spent in my school clubs and organizations).

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  • Editors edit scripts into grammatically correct sentences after it's been trans'd and TLC'd. Hackers handle stuff like extracting game scripts, repacking, etc.
  • Yes.
  • It really depends on how many you want since people have different translation styles. Maybe someone with more scene experience could answer this one?
  • Hmmm... Definitely communication so there's no misunderstandings or anything (basing this off of the time I spent in my school clubs and organizations).

What's a tlc?

The biggest thing that should be emphasized, like Daeyamati said, is communication. I've seen quite a few projects get dropped simply because nobody has heard from X and Y for so long that they didn't know what to do. Make sure everyone talks to eachother.

Oh so it really means that the team needs a forum?

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hey you can do it anyway you like, there's no correct solution because different games require different solutions.

and sometimes you've only got the people you've got, so can't really help it

yeah i don't understand why englishotomegames.com said they were involved with me! and that was my number 1 place for otome news (or whoever started the rumour)...... oh well everyone makes mistakes. i posted a comment on your blog.

usually you have translator or translatorS doing all the raw translations, then an editor or editorS fixing that up back into fluent english. that's a reasonably effective and efficient way to do it. It just depends on the game. If it's a simple bishounen-geimu like starry sky, I'd go with more translators. Amaterasu translations and many other projects have followed the 1 translator, multiple Editor strategy. personally i dont mind having more translators for D.C.III

i dont think there is any correct way to manage a project,

when you need more helpers you can advertise for it, and hopefully some1 notices it. because casual fans dont really care unless you are already 100% or near 100%.

myself i prefer to also make as many people know as possible because i actually want as many ppl to play it as possible. other people are different, they want to do it quietly and do it in the background unless they need more help. so depending on which you prefer, you can have a blog.... and then other people dont even have a blog. actually it doesn't really matter either way. I think for me, it is easier to spread the word if you have a blog and because i dont keep up with forums very well.

^ anyway those are my random thoughts

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Forum, skype, whatever. Just make sure people are talking and that everyone knows when/if someone is going away for periods of time so the project doesn't suddenly halt in a panic.

Bubu-san created an irc channel for us :D

TLC = translation checking. I guess you can think of it as what proofreading is to editing, if that makes sense.

A forum is a good idea, but maybe irc or just having each other's contact info would be good enough?

I see, since when did TLC became a trendy term for proofreaders? :)

hey you can do it anyway you like, there's no correct solution because different games require different solutions.

and sometimes you've only got the people you've got, so can't really help it

yeah i don't understand why englishotomegames.com said they were involved with me! and that was my number 1 place for otome news (or whoever started the rumour)...... oh well everyone makes mistakes. i posted a comment on your blog.

usually you have translator or translatorS doing all the raw translations, then an editor or editorS fixing that up back into fluent english. that's a reasonably effective and efficient way to do it. It just depends on the game. If it's a simple bishounen-geimu like starry sky, I'd go with more translators. Amaterasu translations and many other projects have followed the 1 translator, multiple Editor strategy. personally i dont mind having more translators for D.C.III

i dont think there is any correct way to manage a project,

when you need more helpers you can advertise for it, and hopefully some1 notices it. because casual fans dont really care unless you are already 100% or near 100%.

myself i prefer to also make as many people know as possible because i actually want as many ppl to play it as possible. other people are different, they want to do it quietly and do it in the background unless they need more help. so depending on which you prefer, you can have a blog.... and then other people dont even have a blog. actually it doesn't really matter either way. I think for me, it is easier to spread the word if you have a blog and because i dont keep up with forums very well.

^ anyway those are my random thoughts

Thank Aaeru! I picked many translators in a game to make things faster, the only problem I'm facing right now is how to motivate them to continue--

Some stick around ,some suddenly disappears. It's hard to keep up sometimes, but it quite addictive seeing as how the progress goes.

Maybe I'll just wait for their response perhaps?

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Hey i was talking to D_fallen_god about Jichi's visual novel reader. Apparently when we are done doing some translations, it allows you to download an .XML file that is all of your subtitles that you have entered in one file.

he says that this .XML file is sufficient for turning into an English patch! (just have to write a scraper.)

Looking at the stats on Vntls, I think just under 50% of all projects will fail because of burn out, because the translators gave up, or because the translators had other things in life they must do. (e.g. they find a job)

One of the biggest dangers with fan translation is that you do not know what will happen to you tomorrow. Real life happens.

That's why I am willing to tolerate a trade-off, split the TL work into separate slices (usually by route), but at the cost of losing a little bit of consistency.

some people however, get very very angry at that idea. They think you are defiling their favourite game XD, but i tell these people that the translation decisions are ultimately up to the translator, and it varies from game to game, person to person. A To Heart 2 translation doesn't require the same rigour and discipline as a Subahibi. So everything must be taken in context. The people who insist on applying a one-size-fit-all solution, are much stranger to me than the people who actually think about their cost-efficiency options.

Sorry just rambling.

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Hey i was talking to D_fallen_god about Jichi's visual novel reader. Apparently when we are done doing some translations, it allows you to download an .XML file that is all of your subtitles that you have entered in one file.

he says that this .XML file is sufficient for turning into an English patch! (just have to write a scraper.)

Is there a tutorial for that? O.o

They think you are defiling their favourite game

Hah..it's hard to please people...but hey were doing this for free. :lol:

Stop apologizing Aaeru, I learned quite a lot from your experiences/information you know :P

Hmm maybe that was a bad example. When you TLC you check to see if the translation is good enough to your liking or if anything was mistranslated, etc.

The process generally goes:

  1. Translate
  2. TLC
  3. Editing
  4. Proofreading
  5. QC

Hope that helps! :)/>

So TLC's needs to be Japanese translators as well?

I'm still confused with the difference of Editing and Proofreading >.<

Thank's a lot for answering my questions, I'm sorry if I'm a bit slow :unsure:

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So TLC's needs to be Japanese translators as well?

I'm still confused with the difference of Editing and Proofreading >.<

Thank's a lot for answering my questions, I'm sorry if I'm a bit slow :unsure:

Well TLCs don't need to translate but they do need knowledge about Japanese.

The difference between editing and and proofreading is that in proofreading, it's mainly about about correct grammar, spelling, etc while editing revolves around sentence structure, clarity, etc so it's more of a personal preference.

Let's use these sentences as an example (word-for-word from Anniversary no Kuni no Alice script).

「Seeing what I really desire is really embarrassing somewhere inside of me, I do like fairytales…」

If I were just editing the sentence, paying no attention to grammar what-so-ever, I would rewrite like this:

「Seeing my inner desires is really embarrassing I guess I do like fairytales deep down…」

As you can tell from the underlined parts, I replaced some words and rearranged parts of the sentences so that it reads better to my liking. Of course someone else could come along and rewrite the sentence as (again, not paying attention to grammar):

「It's embarrassing to see what I really desire I must really like fairytales deep down…」

Two sentences written differently, but it still gets the main idea across. That's editing. Because everyone has different editing styles, it's really up to the person to decide how they want the sentence to be read.

Now, if I were to strictly proofread, it would look like this:

"Seeing what I really desire is really embarrassing. Somewhere inside of me I do like fairy tales..."

You can see that the sentences, when read aloud, sound pretty awkward, but are still grammatically correct. That's proofreading. Of course, you could also have your editors proofread as well, but it depends. Some groups like to keep the two jobs separated while others like to have the editors edit and proofread.

Hope that helps! Feel free to ask if you have any more questions.

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Better is

1. translation

2. editing

3. TLC

4. Proofreading

5. QC

NEVER do editing after TLC for any type of translation project. Editors by definition ruin translations by accident as they go, and an experienced TL (preferably more experienced and skilled than the one doing the raw translation) is going to be able to perform the job of a second editor as well, conforming the redone english text to the original meaning without making it sound weird. Also, for large projects, you should have as many as four raw translators, preferably having split the game more or less evenly based on route, with the common route given over to whoever has the most free time or whoever is available at the moment (file it as 'anyone who wants it' or something like that).

Edit: The reason for four translators is that most VNs have around four or five heroines and the fact that a VN translation project of any size is just too much for a single translator in most cases. Nothing more certain to doom a project than a translator feeling isolated.

Edit2: For a regular sized kinetic novel (VNs with only a single path and ending - other than bad endings) two translators or even a single translator and a tlc would be enough. The larger the project you are tackling, the more people you are going to need, as most people aren't going to be able to hang on for six months to a year on a single project without burning out.

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A moege doesn't need all those steps. (i mean most of these visual novels are not exactly masterpieces.)

separate translators for individual routes is best quality v efficiency split-off for most games imo. not all games.

there are so many projects stuck at the 1% - 30% mark, very very few people have the mental endurance (or luxury) to sacrifice 2 years of their free time for one novel. there are very few ppl like that. most translators overestimate their own abilities.

Even Akysys games use non-JP reading editors. ideally the editor should be the one with the best Japanese and does a pass through the game right at the end.

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The main reason I speak for large numbers of tls is to prevent burnout. An intelligent translator should weigh his pride and the project on a scale and choose the project every time. If he wants to, he can always go back over it later, after the project has been released. VN translations are so rare and exhausting that it is idiotic to even attempt to do it on your own on a project of any scale.

Edit: An editor's job is only to turn the raw translation into coherent English. The translation checker's job is to conform that coherent English to something matching the original meaning of the words without making it sound awkward (a primary reason why a tlc must not only have mastered Japanese but have good English writing skills). A project leader should never, ever be one of the translators. Translators are almost always the first members to experience burnout, due to the sheer volume of mental labor they undertake, and their work is also the most time-consuming. If a translator founds a project, one of his first jobs should be to find someone who is not a translator to organize and recruit members. To be blunt, the demise of most projects can be directly linked to translators taking on too much of the job of running the project themselves and being unwilling to hand over control to someone else. Editors are easily replaced, as are proofreaders. However, translators (and hackers) are relatively rare and difficult to recruit. All effort should be made to slow and prevent burnout of translators, as they are the keys to the project. To be blunt, 'if you translate it, it will eventually become a patch, but if you don't translate it, it will be nothing more than a bunch of words in a foreign language'.

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The main reason I speak for large numbers of tls is to prevent burnout. An intelligent translator should weigh his pride and the project on a scale and choose the project every time. If he wants to, he can always go back over it later, after the project has been released. VN translations are so rare and exhausting that it is idiotic to even attempt to do it on your own on a project of any scale.

Edit: An editor's job is only to turn the raw translation into coherent English. The translation checker's job is to conform that coherent English to something matching the original meaning of the words without making it sound awkward (a primary reason why a tlc must not only have mastered Japanese but have good English writing skills). A project leader should never, ever be one of the translators. Translators are almost always the first members to experience burnout, due to the sheer volume of mental labor they undertake, and their work is also the most time-consuming. If a translator founds a project, one of his first jobs should be to find someone who is not a translator to organize and recruit members. To be blunt, the demise of most projects can be directly linked to translators taking on too much of the job of running the project themselves and being unwilling to hand over control to someone else. Editors are easily replaced, as are proofreaders. However, translators (and hackers) are relatively rare and difficult to recruit. All effort should be made to slow and prevent burnout of translators, as they are the keys to the project. To be blunt, 'if you translate it, it will eventually become a patch, but if you don't translate it, it will be nothing more than a bunch of words in a foreign language'.

Wow that was very informative and actually makes sense. Thank you I learned something from what I read.

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Common sense combined with experience and an understanding of team-building leads to logical conclusions. Keeping the burden nice and spread out over as many people as possible leads to quicker results and more likely completion of projects. The problem is finding someone with the organizational skills and tools to keep people moving in the same direction who also is able to make certain he has someone available to pass the burden to if he hits the massive boulder that is rl. In other words, if you are the project leader, make sure you have a replacement or alternate (or three) lined up to take things over, with all your resources in hand so that the project doesn't die just because you get hit by a car or sent to jail for owning lolicon manga.

In other words, if you want to get things done, discard your pride. You can always go back and fix things that go wrong on the 'quick and dirty' approach later if you aren't satisfied. That's where perfectionism really shines, if you have that passion. Perfectionism is a weakness in a fantranslation group where it is not a weakness in a fansubbing group (primarily because a fansub group can get away with it, as anime series just aren't as much work or as overall demanding on project members). I don't condemn idealists or perfectionists entirely... they have their place. They go around behind the 'quick and dirty' types and grumble while fixing things at a dogged pace for their own self-satisfaction, earning their place of respect in the community for that hard work. However, perfectionism should never prevent fans from getting what they want...lol

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Hmm, sorry to disagree, but...

Keeping the burden nice and spread out over as many people as possible leads to quicker results and more likely completion of projects.

I think, following The Mythical Man-Month, use as few people as possible that can still get the job done (a judgment call to be sure), because more people involved in a project increases the risk of organizational overhead and communication problems.

You can always go back and fix things that go wrong on the 'quick and dirty' approach later if you aren't satisfied.

I don't usually see that happen, though. Having worked as an editor on a questionable script, I can tell you that it's not always easy to go back and fix. I say do it right the first time, and avoid a mess later on.

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You know I'm trying to learn what it means to start a project and all your advice make sense. They still somehow contradict each other, but I guess that depends on the situation.

I'm sorry but I'm new here. I as well am also interested in VN translations. See the Cross Days walkthrough on Youtube that was my work. I had to resort to that since I am no hacker.

How do you set up your team exactly? And how do you recruit your members? Certainly that is a challenge considering it not like a video game where you can just get them at an instant.

Please guide me. I'm sure you people have plenty of experience under your belt and I think it is certainly a blessing to share knowledge to better the future of other VN translation projects

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Hmm, sorry to disagree, but...

I think, following The Mythical Man-Month, use as few people as possible that can still get the job done (a judgment call to be sure), because more people involved in a project increases the risk of organizational overhead and communication problems.

I don't usually see that happen, though. Having worked as an editor on a questionable script, I can tell you that it's not always easy to go back and fix. I say do it right the first time, and avoid a mess later on.

That's why you should always pick a team leader who knows what is going on and has no other task but organizing the team. In addition, a second-rate translation is better than none, which is what most games get.

Edit: Generally, teams break down for a number of reasons... but primary amongst them are burnout and team managers that try to do stuff other than manage things. The groups I've worked with that worked out the best inevitably had a plethora of members with a project leader whose only real job was managing the team and the project as a whole. Also, a leader should be able to nag his members, possessing their contact information (online, of course) and be prepared to find a replacement for any given member as needed. I may not have stated it strongly enough in my previous post, but if you don't finish the translation, there will be no patch and all your efforts will go to nothing. As a further note, setting reasonable goals for each member and enforcing deadlines inasmuch as is possible is part of the job. A manager who lets the translator decide what he will translate next inevitably ends up with nothing getting done. Providing clear beginnings and endings to a chunk of work is necessary for stress management, and a decent project manager will be aware of what is doable and what isn't. I once received a request to translate one thousand lines in a single day... needless to say, it didn't work out. (a hundred lines a day is doable for just about anyone with two hours or so of free time and a knowledge of Japanese though)

Edit2: I should have added this earlier, but the editor's job in this kind of case switches from just transforming engrish to english to also unifying the basic writing style of the text. A raw translator's job is to get the gist of things down more or less accurately, the editor's job is to provide continuity between the various translators' work and turn that raw mass of material into legible english. To an extent, this part of the job can also be done by the translation-checker, by matching the english style to the Japanese style in tone... but to be blunt, asking for that level of results on a VN translation is a bit much.

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I want to add that it's always project-specific. the strategy is different based on what you are trying to chew.

The level of discipline that clephas is describing is way way higher than the methodology set by your average group. He's talking about something the size of an amaterasu. Not everyone will possess that level of organization.

actually for D.C.III my methodology is open translation, which means any1 can join and any1 can translate, and all my subtitles are released into the public as soon as they are committed. This is because if you've actually read D.C.III in japanese you will know that the text is just utter garbage. It's junior school level language.

One of the points clephas was talking about (of which I had a disagreement with some1 on twitter) is that most TLs do the opposite.

That's because fan translation is done for the credit. And to add new translators into the mix means you have to share your credit, of which there was very little of to begin with. So of course they solo the entire script on their own. "Otherwise it doesn't feel good enough!"

They also want to think that they own it. And they hate on any1 who dare to modify it. It is a mixture of these feelings.

That is why Only people who really do it to serve their community, would be willing to use clephas' method because it would require an expense of oneself that not many are willing to give.

Im not saying I have anything against ppl who translate for reputation capital. (even i translate for rep). In fact I am the opposite.

The number of reasons ppl translate is about as numerous as there are fan translators in existence. People do it as a hobby, or as enjoyment, and not necessarily to serve their community, and I am fine with that.

I think it is not right for one group to try to dictate to another group on how they should be going about carrying out their business. In fact, that is precisely the reason why the VN scene has grown into this polygon of hatred that it is these days. TLWiki: "I hope your fan translation fucking fails."

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In my approach, the leader should first ask his translators what they think is a reasonable goal. New or enthusiastic translators will always set their goals too high to meet. This is no joke, this is talking from experience. Fantranslations take a lot more patience and effort than fansubbing. As a result, most of your translators will burn out if you try to enforce a pace they say is good. A good round number is a hundred lines a day or five hundred a week. A hundred lines in the hands of an experienced translator is forty-five minutes to an hour's worth of work, and in the hands of an inexperienced translator, it is generally around two hours of work. Most people with the time to translate at all can probably manage those two hours several days in a given week.

This is knowledge you need from your team members:

1- Likely availability (specific days of the week, times of day in which they are available)

2- An email address they check regularly

These are tools you should arrange or make sure your people have

1- A central area (non-public) such as a dropbox account where you can put together the scripts (finished and unfinished)

2- Separate folders for 'assignments' for each individual(basically, by calculating the time each person will potentially have available and dividing it in half, you can make a reasonable schedule for each individual tl)

2B- Also make a separate folder full of script assignments for those who have free time. You can always reassign them later as the project gets closer to completion or move others to this folder if it is emptied.

3- An IRC channel (any kind of central chat client where you can make individual 'rooms' will do, as long as all your people gather there)

4- If they don't have them already, suggest tools like Translation Aggregator's JParser function to aid in quicker and more efficient translation

5- Your replacement. Sorry to say, but burnout is possible even for a project leader. To be blunt, it is an incredibly frustrating position, and you would be wise to find a replacement or an alternate if you start feeling tired or apathetic. If nothing else, your sudden death or loss of internet access would not disrupt the project in a case such as this.

Advice

1- Do NOT, under any circumstances create a public site until the actual patch is complete. In the case of fantranslations, it is better to ask for forgiveness than permission. The more popular the game, the more likely you will get a cease and desist request/order. This is a mistake almost every group makes, and there are always members who are unwilling to continue after such.

2- Recruitment should be done through intermediaries such as this site or in relatively anonymous places like IRC channels.

3- Recruiting translation staff can be (is almost always) difficult. My first advice would be to look at the credits of active anime fansub groups and fish for potential members... but that is only one of many methods. Many VN-related forums like this one have related irc channels that usually have a few lurker tls like myself around. If they have time, there is a chance they will be willing to help.

4- Keep talking to your members and keep them talking. Even if it is meaningless conversation, the act of speaking with them casually will create a sense of attachment that makes it less likely for them to drop out of sight without warning.

5- If something major happens to you irl, don't hesitate. Put your alternate in place and go take care of things. Letting your rl rot will only end your involvement in a more abrupt manner later.

Edit: Really and truly, you'd be best off not creating a public site at all and putting your patch out through a third party like this site. To be blunt, people like Aaeru are perfectly willing to take on the risks you might not be willing to do in order to distribute translated games.

Edit2: Make sure your people understand that the availability information they are giving to you is availability for translation, free of other pursuits, not free time in general. Most fantranslators are also VN and/or anime/manga junkies. Thus, if something interesting comes their way, some of that time will inevitably go toward those pursuits, if not the bulk of it. I felt a need to restate this as it is something that needs to be stated from the beginning, for the good of future work relations with your fellows.

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Clephas after reading your advice I feel like I boiled down the roles of a Team Leader. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The Team Leader:

1. Organizes all the files.

2. Assembles and assigns work tasks

3. Regularly talks with team members about their status.

4. Can give his job to someone else

5. Is in charge of recruiting

My question is how does these roles make the Team Leader burn out and which of them are the most likely? What are some recruiting techniques you can give and please give some examples.

Also I gotta ask that not working in the translation department sounds like the Team Leader isn't working at all. Won't the team members hate their leader?

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Our RWI solution also allows for online collaboration, since translators and editors can see the changes others have submitted immediately (up to the granularity of the submission, <= 100 lines usually). Although we haven't much time recently to develop it further, this is where we see things going. It's not as open a system as VNR, but also not as closed as the more traditional, mostly working-in-isolation of before.

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