I want to finish this game already! Thread

[Sieg]

I don't think you read what I said here, since the point you bring up I actually kinda agreed with.

Participating in this little debate I started really thinking about what separates Visual Novels from conventional books in terms of content. Now while I still stand by all the points I made, I have come to realize their is a difference between Life-stories, and Stories in general. Good stories should have deeper and more thematic content in them. A good story is a story you don't just finish once your done, but rather one you have to digest and analyze. A Good life story, (Which is the category I place VNs in) should serve as a magnify glass into a characters life and the characters around him/her. In general VN's progress chronologically day by day, and rarely will skip large gaps of time. For example you won't generally play in the perspective of a kid, and then suddenly the story skips to when the child is an adult or adolescent, (unless its a flash back). Good VN's generally also have a theme that focus around the monotony of life. So because VNs generally focus around the monotony of life it is natural for their narrative to be longer then most other genres of stories. However, even using this as an excuse I still think a well written VN should try to condense its content when it can, and should avoid scenes that don't serve to develop the characters or the overall theme of the story.

I don't think I said this to you especifically, but since you took the trouble of writing so much it'd be rude to just ignore it.

There are many flaws in what you just said exactly because you're thinking too hard about it.

" A Good life story, (Which is the category I place VNs in) should serve as a magnify glass into a characters life and the characters around him/her. " There are many VN that are story centered, not character centered.

" Good VN's generally also have a theme that focus around the monotony of life." That's no rule, not even generally.

" So because VNs generally focus around the monotony of life it is natural for their narrative to be longer then most other genres of stories." There are, actually, many fast-paced VN narrative-wise, like Sengoku Rance, My gf is the President, Monster Girl Quest and Nukiges in general.

And finnaly, this ain't much of an argument, but it's for the sake of not generalising: " In general VN's progress chronologically day by day, and rarely will skip large gaps of time. " Clannad has a span of 8 years, I know you said generally but I hate making rules and setting things in stone, it's great because it doesn't have a formula. Be it long or short, with a deep thematic or a rather shalow one, it can still be good if it serves it's purpose, for example, a comedy can be shallow story-wise but good in what it does.

That said, this thread wasn't meant for this kind of debate, and I myself am rather tired and uninterested in further outcomes from this, so I won't post about it here any longer. Of course, I will listen to whatever you have to say, but message me or something if that's the case

[Zalor]

I do actually agree with a lot of what you say, truthfully, but I don't think all VN's can be put under a single category of story-telling. It almost sounded like you said VN's by default can't be good stories because of the skeleton used to make them. This framework doesn't decide what thematic elements are used and what the writing direction is going to be. Chareges will make this framework into a whole experience, sure, but even then I find even them to be too broad to compare them to eachother under the same category. Would you honestly tell me that Fate/Stay Night, MVA and Little Busters are all the same VN but with different genres? I don't think you would, but placing them underneath the same category can lead to comparisons of apples to oranges. The medium doesn't define the content. Imo, ever.

Also, while I do agree that everything should try to trim/condense, what is considered 'useless padding' and excess is highly, highly relative. Not everyone will find relevance in things you might, and sometimes people will find even the smallest character interaction neccessary. It's an incredibly subjective flaw.

I do agree with you that it was wrong for me to generalize a whole media. And you are right that I wouldn't say that all Visual Novels are the same story just in different genres. I didn't mean to make it sound like I don't think any VN can reach the artistic value of a great book, what I rather think is that Visual Novels reach their artistic goal vastly differently then a book or play would. Rereading what I said and reflecting on it, I meant that while VN's are largely works based on text, they are still vastly different in style then conventional novels. I definitely respect the medium, (other wise why else would I have joined this site? ) But I am also very interested in deconstructing it and understanding what separates high quality VNs from the bad ones. That said I do think that because VNs tend to focus on narrative more then other genres of stories, they tend to be heavily involved with the life and relationships of the main characters in a way that most novels wont deal with. A huge compliment I have to give to VNs is that they emphasize the relationships in a way that most novels generally don't have the opportunity to. And I stand by the belief that even the story driven VNs tend to put special emphasis on relationships and first person thoughts, I mean have you even read a VN written entirely in 3rd person, I know I haven't at least.

That said, this thread wasn't meant for this kind of debate, and I myself am rather tired and uninterested in further outcomes from this, so I won't post about it here any longer. Of course, I will listen to whatever you have to say, but message me or something if that's the case

I think I addressed most of the issues you brought up in the paragraph I have above. Anyway, I'm sorry you don't enjoy the debate and defiantly don't participate if you don't want to. I honestly really enjoy sharing my thoughts about VNs and reflecting on them by reading peoples responses. This site is really the only place I can not only talk to people about Visual Novels, but talk about them on an intellectual level. I meant nothing personal when replying to you guys in this debate, I just get really excited and caught up in my own thought when I'm engaging with people intellectually.

[Malware]

Assuming I feel like I've been reading far too much uninteresting text I hardly ever skip text. I feel like I'll miss something extremely important.

[Wahfuu]

I do agree with you that it was wrong for me to generalize a whole media. And you are right that I wouldn't say that all Visual Novels are the same story just in different genres. I didn't mean to make it sound like I don't think any VN can reach the artistic value of a great book, what I rather think is that Visual Novels reach their artistic goal vastly differently then a book or play would. Rereading what I said and reflecting on it, I meant that while VN's are largely works based on text, they are still vastly different in style then conventional novels. I definitely respect the medium, (other wise why else would I have joined this site? :P/>) But I am also very interested in deconstructing it and understanding what separates high quality VNs from the bad ones. That said I do think that because VNs tend to focus on narrative more then other genres of stories, they tend to be heavily involved with the life and relationships of the main characters in a way that most novels wont deal with. A huge compliment I have to give to VNs is that they emphasize the relationships in a way that most novels generally don't have the opportunity to. And I stand by the belief that even the story driven VNs tend to put special emphasis on relationships and first person thoughts, I mean have you even read a VN written entirely in 3rd person, I know I haven't at least.

Well, that ended far more civilly than I was expecting!

I actually think VN's have the best tools avaliable for relationships and characters as far as mediums go. It has text, CG's/sprites, and voice-acting. You can use your immagination, eyes and ears all at the same time to get the idea of a character thats being presented to you. It's pretty impressive, really.

I don't disagree with the belief of story-VN's still highlighting character relationships. The framework you mentioned before makes it almost impossible to neglect the relationships of the characters around the protagonist. A first-person perspective with as much of a focus on narrative as VN's have makes the character relationships incredibly natural. Sometimes they don't get the same spotlight, though. Almost the entirety of Chaos;Head is an example I could point out. Yet I don't think it makes it any worse or pale in comparison to other VN's that do.

Hm. This is kind of hard to put into words.

[Tay]

I wanted to pipe in and say that this discussion has featured some very well-articulated points. Zalor's discussion on length and polish is spot on with what I teach in creative writing classes, and what is universally advocated by authors worldwide. It can be boiled down to, "Every scene should serve the narrative." Writing that exists for its own sake nearly always harms the story in the long run.

What I find interesting and captivating about visual novels --and it sounds like Zalor does as well -- is the way they often balance the monotony of the day-by-day storytelling (which is rarely found in other genres) with each scene serving the narrative. Sometimes, as an author, it leaves me marveling.

[Zalor]

What I find interesting and captivating about visual novels --and it sounds like Zalor does as well -- is the way they often balance the monotony of the day-by-day storytelling (which is rarely found in other genres) with each scene serving the narrative. Sometimes, as an author, it leaves me marveling.

I completely agree with you. To add on to what you've said, the style of story telling in VNs is so different than other genres of writing that I would even call it a bit revolutionary. To experience a story through the day by day life and perspective of a character, and have overarching themes present them self in the story, (and experience them first hand as the character) is a very unique and interesting method. I think what really allows for this difference in writing style is the fact that scenery and characters are already conveyed though visually artistic designs. So the writers don't have to worry as much about writing the physical details of something. This gives them the opportunity to write and convey their thoughts in a different way. Anyway, I think I might very well start a whole thread about this topic, since I still want to discuss this but I don't want to continue to derail this thread any more than it already has been.

[Down]

Look in the depths (well, the 6 pages or so...) of the forum, I'm pretty sure there's a thread corresponding to this where it was discussed, you can just pick it up.

[Tay]

Look in the depths (well, the 6 pages or so...) of the forum, I'm pretty sure there's a thread corresponding to this where it was discussed, you can just pick it up.

Yeah... those were good times. Good ole' Demon Lord Harry_Kinomoto and I had some good chats, as did several of the old guard. Miss those guys! (Harry's in Medical school and is wisely prioritizing his time : ), thus his absence)