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Hi, I always get the bad ending


mrsmelodion

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Hi!

I'm not good at introductions but I thought it'd be rude to just start posting without introducing myself so there it goes.

So I found out about VNs years ago but I dropped them because I was just too impatient to get past the lack of interaction; I didn't like stories being told to me, but rather decide them by myself. However, I've now grown older and weary of all videogames but visual novels, which now happen to be really interesting, almost fascinating, to me. So a few days ago I raided the web hunting down all information and sources about VNs I could get my hands on and got to play a few of them. Now, I probably haven't played enough VNs to substantially back up my incoming query, but it's bugging me inside and I've not been able to figure it out, so please, lend me a hand:

I'm not much of a achievement hunter guy, so I don't care much about completing CG galleries. I'm not either particularly thriled by anime setups, so I can't recreate myself too much with the contents of the novel. However, I seemingly have a sort of preference for empathizing with fiction characters, so I thoroughly enjoy roleplaying the main character and making the same choices I'd make in real life. And then, two problems arose. First one is, while I'm always attracted to the troubled characters, I always end up getting involved with the energetic one. I was able to figure that out more or less: I always choose the confronting choice, which I guess fuels up such energetic characters and unwillingly gets me involved with them, and when they go beyond their limits and everything goes to hell, I always choose the soothing action because I believe everyone deserves a second chance and so I win their heart and what follows. The second one, probably linked to the first, is more troublesome to me. I ALWAYS GET THE BAD ENDING!!! I've played so far Katawa Shoujo and Sharin no Kuni, Himawari no Shoujo and I keep running into bad endings. Into the earliest ones, which is even more troubling. Now, I understand the easiest fix to this is to get over it and load a previous save or outright restart and try again with different choices. But I keep thinking there's a reason behind, so I've been trying to bullshit-pseudo-analyze myself but I can't draw any further conclusion other than me being a selfish hedonist who can't carry a long-term relationship and sooner than later ends up screwing the poor gal (both physically and psychologically) and getting BAD END, but it's only blind guessing in the end. So I raided the net again in search of answers but it was all for naught, so I looked instead for visual novel-themed boards and this one seemed the most warming and appetizing out there, so I signed up and made a self-deprecating post asking for someone to tell me what I wanted to hear, even if I don't know what it is.

So tell me guys, does obtaining a "bad ending" have a special meaning in regards to the player('s behavior)? Are there any tips to avoid it happening any longer? Or should I enjoy them for what they are?

Thanks a lot for your help and for reading and sorry for being so self-centered. I'm really looking forward to your answers. I'll try to do my best to fit in. So long!

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Hi, and welcome here!

My first guess would that you're overthinking it. There are tons of reasons for you to end up in bad endings without it being related to your mindset/social skills/whatever.

First one, the people who did the game were not trying to do a hyper-realistic simulation of real life. The choices you have to make to get the good endings are not necessarily the most logical ones or the most common ones.

Second one, you are not the exact same character that you are playing, nor the guy who wrote the VN. Therefore you yourself won't do the same choices, and it happens so that your choices leads to a bad end. The problem is not with you, the problem is that it's a story that have a determined direction.

A third thing I can see: you say you end up with the energetic type while focusing on the troubled character. I don't know about Katawa Shoujo but I definitely see you're talking about Sharin no Kuni here. The thing is, the story of the second chapter is centered around Sachi and focusing on Natsumi isn't going to change much. Focusing on a specific heroin will only change some scenes and the epilogue (in this particular VN).

Overall, don't be too concerned about this. Not all the VNs have very dynamic stories where a lot changes if you make certain choices etc. and when there are, i can guarantee that focusing on a heroin will get you involved with her for sure. If you get bad ends, it's often a question of one choice, that is not necessarily a logic one, it's just the one that makes the story go on.

That might also have to do with the kind of games you're playing. KS and SnK have plot-oriented stories. You should maybe try more simulation-oriented VNs (don't have recommendations though, i prefer plot-heavy VNs)

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First off, welcome to Fuwa! Its a kickass community, so don't hold back!

Also, what Down said.

You are just overthinking it, don't let it bother you too much. I was going to add more, but Down has already said what I would have in a much better fashion so yeah haha.

Just have fun with them VN's~

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Hi there!!!

Well, I'm somewhat straight so let's get down to business. It's ok to choose options according to what you would choose in real life, but you must consider some things when reading a VN. First is that it's a story with an author, yeah, i'm captain obvious, but here's my point, the things will only go according to what he/she thinks would happen because it's his/her world. So, while there are stories with more bad endings than minesweeper in hard mode, so you won't progress in the story unless you follow the path the author chose for the MC. That's in the case where the scenario guides the story, and there are the character-based stories (of course there are middle points) where the role play is more..... satisfying? But here comes the great thing about VN's, not only they give you the chance to choose your path, but also the chance to view the things from other perspectives.

EDIT: Pretty much what Down said (take too much time to write this....)

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Wow, you guys sure are fast!

I'm overwhelmed by your kind and elaborate replies. I seem to have understood your message. I guess the little young me who always wanted to change the world still remains inside there, manipulating what's left of good ol' me. I'll keep what you guys said on mind. Frankly, I think it might make it a less vivid, yet it's an interesting perspective nevertheless. Plus it makes me wonder whether my values are more peculiar than the author's, or backwards. Which leads me to another question. I've been browsing the VN discussion board for a topic related to it but I was unable to find it: what's the reason for people to play VNs? I'm really interested on what people find interesting of them. From a clinical point of view, it feels as if most of its elements can be equally found on anime/manga, but I know there's something else in them that makes them distinguishable, but I can't really tell what it exactly is, other than the 1st person narration/point of view. Care to enlighten me? :3

Thanks again for your valuable words. It's certainly interesting to me to discover and learn about the nature of visual novels.

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I don't think it is that bad to get the bad endings, unless you acquire some keima skills. There are really some VNs that contains fucked up flags and some of the choices don't really make much sense. Always remember that the VN you are reading is a fiction. Though there are certain parts of the story which you can use in real life, I don't think one's behavior can be determined just by playing VNs. Heck, even those 100 question psychological exams doesn't always make sense.

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First things first... I use GameFAQs quite a bit. If a VN has been translated, then there's a good chance that someone has written a guide for it. There's two documents about Sharin No Kuni on the site, and three for Katawa Shoujo. If you're looking for help with untranslated games, ask someone else.

Also, there are VNs which only include good endings. In case you're wondering how I got those results, I used the Visual Novel Database to look for the Only Good Endings tag, and filtered the results by Language: English, and sorted them in alphabetical order. A side note -- it takes some practice and patience to navigate the VNDB, and the site's message board does not seem friendly toward new fans...

I have read a few VNs in which it's surprisingly difficult to get a bad ending (I'm Gonna Nurse You), and a few in which good endings are not obvious or easy (such as both of Winter Wolves' Flower Shop games, and the first two Tokimeki Memorial Girl's Side DS fan translated games). Some creators want to give the reader a relaxing experience, while others want the audience to think, make an effort, and try everything.

...what's the reason for people to play VNs? I'm really interested on what people find interesting of them. From a clinical point of view, it feels as if most of its elements can be equally found on anime/manga, but I know there's something else in them that makes them distinguishable, but I can't really tell what it exactly is, other than the 1st person narration/point of view. Care to enlighten me? :3

That's a good question, and I'm not sure if I can provide an answer. Think about the following...

* Some comics are simply oneshots, and the creator only has so many pages in which to tell a story. Animated TV series have only a few minutes per episode to tell a story, and animated films rarely run past two hours. These limits don't really apply to visual novels. A creator can use words and pictures to tell a short or long story. It doesn't need to have strict pacing.

* Aside from oneshots, most comics are created as serial fiction. Whether they're intended to tell a short or a long story, and whether the creator is releasing them in a weekly or monthly magazine, the creator has to work on them as a routine. There's a few VNs which are told in a serial format, but this is rare. It's much more common to see a standalone release.

* Some visual novel creators create works with no choices or ways to change the story. Fans use terms such as "kinetic novel" to describe a linear VN. But it's more common to see multiple paths and endings. (May be related to visual novels having roots in graphic and text adventures.) It's difficult to adapt a non-linear story to a TV series with only one ending, and it's not necessarily easy to take a linear story and create a game adaptation or spinoff. Portraying a point of view character in another medium is easier said than done.

* Read Wikipedia's article on visual novels if you have time.

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Keep in mind that a visual novel is a book, and a "bad ending" is simply an ending or route that the book does not cover. It does not mean the choice itself is a bad choice or wrong choice, it just means that it isn't the choice the protagonist in the book chose, and therefore is not written about. A good example of this is in Fate Stay Night, which has a ton of bad endings. There are times you have to make an idiotic choice to progress, since that's how the book is written. That idiotic choice is no less idiotic simply since it was the correct one to choose, and the other choices are no less valid. It's simply how it's supposed to happen, I suppose you could say by "fate".

I think you get the gist of what I'm trying to say, so I'll stop now before I confuse myself.

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Well, for your second question, the reason people play VN's, sure I could mention the branching plot, and first person perspective, you've got character art often with more depth/detail than anime (not restricted by animation needs), yet you've got voice acting which manga doesn't have, etc.

But I like to think of it this way: all those cute VN heroines are so hopeful that a nice guy will come along and make them happy...and that guy is me.

I'm suddenly reminded of an old saying that "God gave us wine in order to ease man's burdens on earth"...

I don't think one's behavior can be determined just by playing VNs. Heck, even those 100 question psychological exams doesn't always make sense.

Suppose that there's an online psych test disguised as a popular online game...

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Hello there and welcome to fuwan!

I also second what Down said earlier. You're just over analyzing :P As for avoiding bad ends, you could also try searching for a walkthrough for whichever VN you're reading. There's bound to be one floating around the internet somewhere.

...I was gonna add more to this, but everyone else that posted before me pretty much took the words out of my mouth. Enjoy your stay here and don't be afraid to ask if you have more questions!

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...what's the reason for people to play VNs? I'm really interested on what people find interesting of them. From a clinical point of view, it feels as if most of its elements can be equally found on anime/manga, but I know there's something else in them that makes them distinguishable, but I can't really tell what it exactly is, other than the 1st person narration/point of view. Care to enlighten me? :3

I think there was a thread about that in VN Talk, you might want to read it. Should not be hard to find, the forum is like, 4 page deep.

For me, basically, VNs add up the immersive elements of animation/games (CG, sounds) and the narrative/plots of fiction books. Plus the amount of character development and its quality is awesome, which gives a lot of impact to the later scenes.

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Hey there! Welcome to the forum. I don't think that there's anything particularily bad about getting a bad end - they're technically as much part of the story as the good end, and sometimes may even provide more insight on the characters or the setting, so don't beat yourself over it too much. Also... like some people already said, they are visual novels, not games. Very rarely is a protagonist a stand-in for the player, if at all. Thus, you are not the protagonist; the choices that you'd make are not the choices the protagonist would make; and the latter are the ones necessary for progressing the story, even if they make no logical sense. Mephisto mentioned Fate/stay night, and that's a good example of this (notably Sakura's route).

Anyway, for your second question... I find that what distinguishes them from manga and such are not plot elements or character tropes, but rather the narrative. Visual novels are unique in their method of combining literature, pictures and sounds, a practice which probably first arose from technical limitations, yet still manages to create such an amazing atmosphere. In addition, their nature as a digital medium allows them to be far longer than what an anime, manga, or even a novel would usually be, which in turn allows for greater development of pretty much everything in the story. Also I like anime-style art too :E

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Welcome to the forums! I love the deep questions you brought up -- what an awesome way to jump into the community. I've been thinking about them since yesterday, and while I still haven't boiled down my answers, I didn't want to wait TOO long before posting a welcome message :) I've PM'd a certain, thoughtful demon-lord named Harry_Kinomoto asking for his insights: he's a pretty smart guy, and always manages to be thought provoking.

Bad Endings -- Let me add one thought here. Some VNs (like Sharin no Kuni, or Fate/Stay Night) are written so the choices are based on the character/personality of the protagonist. Others, like Katawa Shoujo or G-Senjou no Maou are written with the expectation that the reader will "reflect" themselves onto the protagonist. This leads to interesting dilemmas: In the first kind of story, choosing actions that "fit in" with the protagonist's personality generally lead you to the main heroine's "true route". In the latter category, where the protagonist largely melts away and the reader is making the choices based on their own character, the choices are more clearly skewed to "Good" "Neutral" and "Bad", and you, the reader, have to choose what you want to happen.

A lot of VN readers are frustrated, like you, when they get bad endings. That's part of the reason walkthroughs are so popular. As for me (and probably stemming from my experiences writing interactive fiction), I can somehow always tell what response is the "most in tune" response to the protagonist's (or my own) personality. Like I said, those choices invariably lead to the "good" or "true" ends of the main heroine. Therefore, frustratingly, I've never gotten a bad ending in all my time of playing VNs (at least, not without purposefully seeking them out).

In any case, if it's frustrating you, I'd suggest playing a new game (with a walkthrough), and comparing the choices YOU'D have made (and where they go), with the choices the walkthrough says you should take if you want this ending, or that ending. Maybe by doing that, you can diagnose your own problem.

Thanks for such a great intro post! Welcome!

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Flattered to be considered the go-to person for dilemmas like this!! Much of what needs to be said has already been said, but I’ll try to add my own spin on it.

First one, the people who did the game were not trying to do a hyper-realistic simulation of real life. The choices you have to make to get the good endings are not necessarily the most logical ones...

This. Put another way, what the options that VNs seem to imply tend to be very different from what they ACTUALLY imply. It’s also worth noting that the amount of “choice” that VNs give you is very little compared to what real life offers you. Many times you choose the Bad End choice, a good amount of time elapses before it actually happens. One could well have spotted the warning signs before the Bad End happened, and take steps to change things before things screwed up irreversibly. This is most evident in Bad Ends that lead to the degeneration of a character’s personality, like for example the one for Sharin no Kuni’s

Oone Touka.

Plus it makes me wonder whether my values are more peculiar than the author's, or backwards.

It cannot be denied that the relationship between certain choices and endings can indeed have deep meaning. However, identifying this relationship is difficult, and very often only possible after you've seen the Bad End. As such value judgements on people just because they keep getting Bad Ends are arguably premature, not least since many choices leading to Bad Ends can seem perfectly well-intentioned - you yourself said you often chose it in hopes to give them a second chance. Of course, if giving someone a second chance led to a Bad End then the author probably didn't think it the right thing to do, but I don’t necessarily think it means the author doesn't believe in second chances at all; rather that THIS character with THIS mindset giving a second chance in THIS situation in THIS specific way... wasn't quite wise! (see above discussions on disconnect between VN worlds and real life.)

Also, a word regarding your philosophy on VN relationships:

While I'm always attracted to the troubled characters, I always end up getting involved with the energetic one. ... I always choose the confronting choice, which I guess fuels up such energetic characters and unwillingly gets me involved with them, and when they go beyond their limits and everything goes to hell, I always choose the soothing action because I believe everyone deserves a second chance and so I win their heart...

Absolutely nothing wrong with that at all, imo. Also don’t forget, being troubled doesn’t mean you can’t be energetic - Sachi from Sharin no Kuni being a good example of someone who was both!
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Aw boy, such wonderful replies. Thanks a lot to you all for your invaluable insight. I myself decided to follow your advice and play being aware of the narrative nature of the VNs, as if reading and witnessing a story rather than hard-roleplaying it and it was indeed much more relaxing. I even managed to evade a bad end!! Bahahaha-

But then I was curious about the bad end I just missed so I looked around for a way to reach it and I must say it was wonderful beyond belief

Touka's

. So, ironically enough, I felt bad for getting the good end instead of the bad one. I just wish bad ends didn't result in game over, and you had to endure disgraces and fatalities until the very end. Just like in real life. Heh.

Anyways, I think I'm going to spend some more time acquiring experience on VNs before actively participating. Thanks a lot for greatly aiding me in my quest towards the most complete and fulfilling VN experience.

See you around!

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That's my complaint too!

These games require you to act like a jerk in order to reach one of the heroine's routes (if it's a galge).

the basic rule is, be nice to the girl you want to get the route with, and treat everyone else indifferently.

...and welcome~

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