Little Busters discussion

[Boon]

too much bloat and filler (too many scenes which have no purpose)

It's called humor. Some people actually find this funny. Lighten up.

 

Seriously, people complain about the stupidest things.

[Darklord Rooke]

Humour is fine, but scene after scene of mucking around is a chore to read. I'm not familiar with Eastern writing techniques, but this sort of thing is looked down upon in the West. Typically we like scenes that move the story forward and for character development and humour to occur during those scenes. 

[Boon]

I'm not familiar with Eastern writing techniques,

Exactly. You aren't. Period.

 

To quote Jackie Chan... he doesn't get American humor. And sometimes, neither do I, as a Chinese.

 

So just stop. You aren't humored. That's your problem. Don't make it the story's problem. It isn't.

[Life]

Humour is fine, but scene after scene of mucking around is a chore to read. I'm not familiar with Eastern writing techniques, but this sort of thing is looked down upon in the West. Typically we like scenes that move the story forward and for character development and humour to occur during those scenes. 

That is one of the reasons I liked the VN though. You live every day as it goes along. It is probably the closest thing to slice of life there is because it doesn't skip anything. Also it may have just been me but I have found the common route to be very 'revealing' when you finish refrain. I have just found so many obvious things that I have looked past before completing it once. So personally I have found the many pointless things to be very fruitful with a little context. 

[Boon]

It is probably the closest thing to slice of life there is

Just to add, not every good story has to deal with progression and character development. Stuff like Azumanga Daioh and Nichijou are considered funny for a reason. And then of course, there's the kind of slice-of-life that does nothing but have pointless meandering throughout the series because it's relaxing. It's fun.

 

Like I said, lighten up; not everything has to be srs bns to be a good story.

[Darklord Rooke]

On the contrary I laughed quite a bit, that doesn’t stop the scenes being useless though.

 

The difference between Azumanga Daioh and Key stuff is that Key stuff has a plot, which scenes of nothingness do nothing to forward.

 

As Visual Novels are released in the West in greater numbers, you will encounter a great many people who aren’t a fan of the writing techniques contained within. I would advise you get used to the criticism and to drop the opinion that your favourite games are somehow “above criticism.”

[Nosebleed]

I think you're over reacting a bit Boon.

Just because someone doesn't like filler and random SoL doesn't mean their opinion is invalid since they use different standards, it's a matter of taste.

You enjoy the non plot focused narrative, and that's fine, but there's nothing wrong with wanting some more story.

I like pointless filler and slice of life moments with no purpose and that's one reason i enjoyed LB, but there's nothing wrong with people who just prefer more story focused narratives and you shouldn't just discard their opinion as pointless, even i agree LB has flaws. I've given things a 10/10 rating and i still aknowledge flaws in those things, just enjoy what you enjoy, no need to throw hate around.

The point is, Haruka is best girl.

[Boon]

On the contrary I laughed quite a bit, that doesn’t stop the scenes being useless though.

So... making people laugh, that's useless, yes? Right. Bitter childhood, hm? Daddy didn't love you enough?

 

The difference between Azumanga Daioh and Key stuff is that Key stuff has a plot, which scenes of nothingness do nothing to forward.

Clannad Season 1 says hi. Hello pointless humor! AND OH LOOK! THERE'S KANON! BEWARE OF THE POINTLESS HUMOR OF REWRITE'S COMMON ROUTE!!!

 

As Visual Novels are released in the West in greater numbers, you will encounter a great many people who aren’t a fan of the writing techniques contained within. I would advise you get used to the criticism and to drop the opinion that your favourite games are somehow “above criticism.”

Oh, I'm used to it. I've seen it a lot on the Internet (mostly consisting of American/Western mentality for obvious reasons). And I'm probably as tired of it as you are tired of the so-called pointless humor... or whatever.

 

No, my opinions probably... no, definitely aren't "above criticism"... but so aren't yours. So when I see something objectively critical like "too much filler and no purpose" without a sense of subjectivity... man, that just ticks me off. You know, instead of something like, "This thing doesn't suit my taste," or something more tasteful like that.

 

Oh, and for the record, These VNs originated in Japan. Western criticism is an accessory. It's like Americans complaining that sushi sucks.

[Darklord Rooke]

So... making people laugh, that's useless, yes?

 

Depends on the situation. Humour can be an effective tool, humour in scenes which don't offer character development or plot development in a game which seeks to draw emotions out of you with it's character development and plot could be classified as such, yes.

 

Clannad Season 1 says hi. Hello pointless humor! AND OH LOOK! THERE'S KANON! BEWARE OF THE POINTLESS HUMOR OF REWRITE'S COMMON ROUTE!!!

 

Yes, Key's works are rife with them.

 

No, my opinions probably... no, definitely aren't "above criticism"... but so aren't yours. So when I see something objectively critical like "too much filler and no purpose" without a sense of subjectivity... man, that just ticks me off. You know, instead of something like, "This thing doesn't suit my taste," or something more tasteful like that.

 

Considering 90% of stuff discussed on forums like these are people's opinions, it's pretty much assumed as default. If I were an arse I would go back and list the many posts you've made which suffer from the same fault, like the ones in the recent Euphoria thread. But I'm too lazy.

 

Oh, and for the record, These VNs originated in Japan. Western criticism is an accessory. It's like Americans complaining that sushi sucks.

 

If people don't want these games criticised by the english speaking audience, then don't release it to them. Once it is we really don't care where it originated from or what you think our right is to criticise it.

[Boon]

Sigh, god... dealing with this moron is a pain in the ass.

 

Depends on the situation. Humour can be an effective tool, humour in scenes which don't offer character development or plot development in a game which seeks to draw emotions out of you with it's character development and plot could be classified as such, yes.

God, that's such a laughable statement, its humor especially emphasized by how much you try and "intellectualized" it. Humor is humor. Makes people laugh, yes? Then it's effective humor. Does it serve a purpose? Yes, make people laugh. Hence the very opposite of "pointless" and "serve no goddamn purpose". Your point is invalid.

 

Yes, Key's works are rife with them.

Rife with them... and yet you seem to imply that you never understood the values of any of them... at all. That's amazing.

 

You know, ironically, the highly-held Grisaia also has such pointless humor. I enjoy them, and don't think they're any more pointless than Key's humor, but hey, that's just me pointing out something that actually HAS A POINT. Weird, huh?

 

If I were an arse I would go back and list the many posts you've made which suffer from the same fault, like the ones in the recent Euphoria thread. But I'm too lazy.

Hah. I knew you'd caught on to that mistake I made. But to be fair, you were 100% inaccurate for your statement this time. No purpose my fucking ass. Your remarks had no purpose other than to serve your ego. How's that for a criticism?

 

If people don't want these games criticised by the english speaking audience, then don't release it to them. Once it is we really don't care where it originated from or what you think our right is to criticise it.

Oh I don't care what you think you're entitled to, Lieutenant Kaffee. I'm just pointing out your blatant faggotry like a good citizen.

 

Sparkly whites suit you, I think. 

[Eclipsed]

My problems with LB are the same problems I have with most KEY VNs - too much bloat and filler (too many scenes which have no purpose) and replaying the common route is an absolute chore.

 

I also have a philosophical problem with requiring the game be replayed 6 times before being able to obtain the ‘true’ ending.

^Key certainly fixed the bloat and filler issues that plagued Little Busters! when they made Rewrite huh .

Seriously. Who knows why they even threw in all of those quests and "collect 100 friends" BS. That was a damn chore to do and nigh impossible without a walkthrough.

Back on topic I realized I didn't really share my thoughts on Little Busters! so I'll do so now.

It was my second VN. I enjoyed the common route. Enjoyed Rin1 -> Enjoyed Haruka -> Played a little bit of Komari's then skipped through along with Kud/Kurugaya/Mio -> Enjoyed Rin2 -> Very much enjoyed Refrain

LOL sorry... I read too many reviews going "REFRAIN!!!<33!@!##" that I grew impatient and couldn't resist. 

Tried to go back and play the character routes again but lost motivation.

~~~

Don't shoot me 

Edit 1: I swore to myself I wouldn't make the same mistake ever again and when it came to Rewrite I enjoyed every last minute of it from start to finish

[Darklord Rooke]

God, that's such a laughable statement, its humor especially emphasized by how much you try and "intellectualized" it. Humor is humor. Makes people laugh, yes? Then it's effective humor. Does it serve a purpose? Yes, make people laugh. Hence the very opposite of "pointless" and "serve no goddamn purpose". Your point is invalid.

 

Usually when people talk about uselessness in stories they are doing so relative to the story’s main purpose. Nothing exists in a vacuum, something isn’t just “funny” – it’s always funny in relation to something else. Things aren’t just useless, they are useless in relation to something else, in this case the main purpose of the story. If someone is moving forward, they are moving forward relative to something else. The “relative” bit is usually omitted because they’re generally able to be assumed. The main priority of the novel isn’t to get you to laugh, it’s designed to make you cry. They do this through the plot and the character development, and any scene which doesn’t service these main goals in some way could be described as superfluous to the novel.

 

Rife with them... and yet you seem to imply that you never understood the values of any of them... at all. That's amazing.

 

I believe you've inferred things from my comments that weren't there.

 

our remarks had no purpose other than to serve your ego. How's that for a criticism?

 

Not great. You seem to be latching onto generic insults to hurl.

 

Seriously. Who knows why they even threw in all of those quests and "collect 100 friends" BS. That was a damn chore to do and nigh impossible without a walkthrough.

 

Definitely annoying. Totally agree *thumbs up*

[Boon]

Usually when people talk about uselessness in stories they are doing so relative to the story’s main purpose. Nothing exists in a vacuum, something isn’t just “funny” – it’s always funny in relation to something else. Things aren’t just useless, they are useless in relation to something else, in this case the main purpose of the story. If someone is moving forward, they are moving forward relative to something else. The “relative” bit is usually omitted because they’re generally able to be assumed. The main priority of the novel isn’t to get you to laugh, it’s designed to make you cry. They do this through the plot and the character development, and any scene which doesn’t service these main goals in some way could be described as superfluous to the novel.

 

Not great. You seem to be latching onto generic insults to hurl.

Well, I must say, good call on that "generic insults" remark... *slow clap* Well, not really; that was a rather generic comeback anyhow. But anyway...

 

Superfluous to the novel or not, your indication that the novel's main purpose is to make one cry is blinded and biased. It should be common knowledge by now that Key's Common Routes are humor-based introductory orientations to get you friendly with the girls and get closer with them... as you do with most if many harem VNs. This is basic fundamental Visual Novel 101.

 

Furthermore, such a technique has proved to be successful among many people, if not you, hence it isn't really as pointless as you indicated, but rather your taste is pointless in the usage of judging this piece of work.

[Life]

Usually when people talk about uselessness in stories they are doing so relative to the story’s main purpose. Nothing exists in a vacuum, something isn’t just “funny” – it’s always funny in relation to something else. Things aren’t just useless, they are useless in relation to something else, in this case the main purpose of the story. If someone is moving forward, they are moving forward relative to something else. The “relative” bit is usually omitted because they’re generally able to be assumed. The main priority of the novel isn’t to get you to laugh, it’s designed to make you cry. They do this through the plot and the character development, and any scene which doesn’t service these main goals in some way could be described as superfluous to the novel.

Not really arguing just a little curious. As a character driven novel, isn't a large part of the emotional impact also based upon how long you spend with the characters and how much you interact with them? If so, wouldn't that make a lot of the novel partake in the tear jerking purpose? o.0

[Darklord Rooke]

Not really arguing just a little curious. As a character driven novel, isn't a large part of the emotional impact also based upon how long you spend with the characters and how much you interact with them? If so, wouldn't that make a lot of the novel partake in the tear jerking purpose? o.0

 

No, a character driven novel means the main focus is on inner conflict and developing relationships. Spending time for no other reason that spending time isn't necessary and (once again) is usually frowned upon. Spending time while actively developing relationships through decisions and changes is usually fairly impactful. 10 hours of mucking around for the sake of mucking around is usually considered bloat.

 

Superfluous to the novel or not, your indication that the novel's main purpose is to make one cry is blinded and biased. It should be common knowledge by now that Key's Common Routes are humor-based introductory orientations to get you friendly with the girls and get closer with them... as you do with most if many harem VNs. This is basic fundamental Visual Novel 101.

 

A tool to develop closeness, not the goal of the novel itself. Can be easily incorporated into scenes which move the story forward.

[Life]

No, a character driven novel means the main focus is on inner conflict and developing relationships. Spending time for no other reason that spending time isn't necessary and (once again) is usually frowned upon. Spending time while actively developing relationships through decisions and changes is usually fairly impactful. 10 hours of mucking around for the sake of mucking around is usually considered bloat.

I see where you're coming from. However I am the type of person who believes that a relationship can develop simply by being around someone else. I mean, I talk to my friends just because I want to. I learn new things about them and just to share memories. So I guess our views on this simply differ.

[Darklord Rooke]

So I guess our views on this simply differ.

 

Yep. To tell you the truth my views on storytelling has changed dramatically over the past decade. 10 years ago I would have loved stories like this, but I'm a lot pickier over stuff these days.

[Wahfuu]

I kinda get what Rooke is saying, and it's definitely not for everyone. I personally loved the playfulness of the atmosphere of Rewrite, and the tinges of mystery laced upon the game as you progress through it, but there is certainly alot of it. And if you don't like the humor and just want to see more of the story I can see it wearing pretty thin.

As far as Little Busters go, it's a bit of a different story. Little Buster's story in the end is a story of friendship, and I think you need more than just constant conflict and sadness to see what that message is about. You see alot of off-camera relations being made between the friends if you look close enough, and alot of the game's slice of life scene's are really just a bunch of goofiness between the cast. I don't think this itself is wrong, but again, I can see the mini-game and whatnot if you choose not to skip it getting old, and the common route :is: really long. I would argue that it does :not: interfere with the goal of Little Busters, though, which is it's overall theme of friendship.

If we are talking about what does interfere with Little Busters, I'd say... well, basically every side route. The core of the story and Refrain itself shows that the game is about friendship, and the boys+rin especially. The common route does this, but the side routes have basically most of the other characters completely disappearing, especially Refrain which only talks about them at the VERY end, which is.. a bit silly, I think. And the sideroutes being romance centered is really silly. I know it's a visual novel/eroge whatever and all, but it's completely off-center the games main theme of friendship and kills the sense of 'togetherness' the common route has. It's something I have a huge problem with, it really makes the message of the game pointless up until Refrain, which basically tosses the other side-route characters to the wind. I guess Komari is a bit of an exception, though.

Not to anyone in particular here, but you really shouldn't get so personally offended if someone doesn't like what you like. That's the joy of being people. Difference.

[SuperWaffleNinja]

I kinda get what Rooke is saying, and it's definitely not for everyone. I personally loved the playfulness of the atmosphere of Rewrite, and the tinges of mystery laced upon the game as you progress through it, but there is certainly alot of it. And if you don't like the humor and just want to see more of the story I can see it wearing pretty thin.

As far as Little Busters go, it's a bit of a different story. Little Buster's story in the end is a story of friendship, and I think you need more than just constant conflict and sadness to see what that message is about. You see alot of off-camera relations being made between the friends if you look close enough, and alot of the game's slice of life scene's are really just a bunch of goofiness between the cast. I don't think this itself is wrong, but again, I can see the mini-game and whatnot if you choose not to skip it getting old, and the common route :is: really long. I would argue that it does :not: interfere with the goal of Little Busters, though, which is it's overall theme of friendship.

If we are talking about what does interfere with Little Busters, I'd say... well, basically every side route. The core of the story and Refrain itself shows that the game is about friendship, and the boys+rin especially. The common route does this, but the side routes have basically most of the other characters completely disappearing, especially Refrain which only talks about them at the VERY end, which is.. a bit silly, I think. And the sideroutes being romance centered is really silly. I know it's a visual novel/eroge whatever and all, but it's completely off-center the games main theme of friendship and kills the sense of 'togetherness' the common route has. It's something I have a huge problem with, it really makes the message of the game pointless up until Refrain, which basically tosses the other side-route characters to the wind. I guess Komari is a bit of an exception, though.

Not to anyone in particular here, but you really shouldn't get so personally offended if someone doesn't like what you like. That's the joy of being people. Difference.

I think i get what you're saying about the side-routes thing.

To be honest i don't dislike the romance in the route or anything but i do hate the fact that when you're playing a side route, almost every character disapears.

But the anime changed that and the little buster members are more involved in the arc.

[Arvis]

Humour is fine, but scene after scene of mucking around is a chore to read. I'm not familiar with Eastern writing techniques, but this sort of thing is looked down upon in the West. Typically we like scenes that move the story forward and for character development and humour to occur during those scenes. 

I don't necessarily disagree, in principle.  But I will say that James Joyce's "Ulysses" is regarded in the West as one of the greatest novels ever written, and it is literally nothing but hundreds of pages of mucking around.  Every excruciatingly painful detail of one day in one person's life. *shrug*

So I think there's room for all kinds of storytelling techniques in Western criticism.  Personally, I like being positive about things.  But your time is precious and should be spent on things you consider worthwhile.

 

 

That is one of the reasons I liked the VN though. You live every day as it goes along. It is probably the closest thing to slice of life there is because it doesn't skip anything. Also it may have just been me but I have found the common route to be very 'revealing' when you finish refrain. I have just found so many obvious things that I have looked past before completing it once. So personally I have found the many pointless things to be very fruitful with a little context. 

This is how I feel about the SoL in Little Busters. I like that I am just living every day, even the days where nothing particularly interesting happens.

 

Anyways, my latest update:

The Little Busters finally played their first baseball game!  YAY!

I lost 13-2.  Booo... T_T

Did I do something wrong?  Is there any way I can win?  I heard that Riki and Rin get higher stats in the "true" route, or whatever.  Is that the only time I could realistically win this match?

Incidentally, both my runs were scored by Kurugaya, unsurprisingly.  She also won the Battle Rankings, too, having suffered only ONE loss the entire time.  And, oddly, that loss was to Riki.

 

I may be taking a break from LB for a while now, though, to do something else.  We'll see.  I won't be starting another VN, though.

 

-Arvis

[solidbatman]

So I see a fanboy in here getting horribly upset that some people dare to not like Little Busters for how freaking long it takes to get going. This is really why Key fans can be the worst. I had a similar experience on another forum for daring to say Kud's ending was really weak due to the climatic scene being too wrapped up in symbolism, taking away from a route that was fairly grounded. Needless to say, I was called ignorant and lazy for not understanding the symbolism (which I never said I didn't understand. I understood it.)
 

Boon, chill out, really. You're making a dick out of yourself by jumping on everyone who disagrees with you. Just learn to let things be, and realize not every opposing opinion needs your hostility. 

[Eclipsed]

Anyways, my latest update:

The Little Busters finally played their first baseball game! YAY!

I lost 13-2. Booo... T_T

Did I do something wrong? Is there any way I can win? I heard that Riki and Rin get higher stats in the "true" route, or whatever. Is that the only time I could realistically win this match?

Incidentally, both my runs were scored by Kurugaya, unsurprisingly. She also won the Battle Rankings, too, having suffered only ONE loss the entire time. And, oddly, that loss was to Riki.

I may be taking a break from LB for a while now, though, to do something else. We'll see. I won't be starting another VN, though.

-Arvis

Yeah, the first baseball game is impossible to win.

After clearing each heroines route and starting over, Riki and Rin's stats do indeed get higher to the point where they will wreck everybody on like your last playthrough.

[solidbatman]

Yeah, the first baseball game is impossible to win.

After clearing each heroines route and starting over, Riki and Ring's stats do indeed get higher to the point where they will wreck everybody on your last playthrough.

I didn't

 

But I turned off the baseball game for 3 of the routes. 

[Eclipsed]

I didn't

 

But I turned off the baseball game for 3 of the routes. 

Riki & Rin's stats will increase on a next playthrough upon completing a route regardless of whether or not baseball practice is turned on or off, but yeah in a particular playthrough if baseball practice is turned off you're guaranteed to lose the baseball game (since nobody will gain stats from practice)

[Arvis]

Yeah, the first baseball game is impossible to win.

After clearing each heroines route and starting over, Riki and Rin's stats do indeed get higher to the point where they will wreck everybody on like your last playthrough.

Well, that makes me feel a little better.  I was so excited for the baseball game and then got slaughtered.  It was very discouraging.  I didn't expect to win, but... 13-2.... ugh...

 

-Arvis