H-Scenes. Really necessary?

[Tay]

Oh and PS:

Do I then have your permission to cite that as Prof. Tay (2012)?

Oh, yes, please. You can even add, "I'm Tay, and I support this message." to the end of it

[Croosboy]

I would say yes and no. It really depends on the people who expects it.

One example of H-Scene being necessary is that, there will always be curios people(specially VN newbie) who will be looking for nudity. This nudity(H-CG) is like a trap so that people will be driven to play for the H-scene. H-scene is sometimes boring when you go directly to it therefor the player will be force to go to the story to find out more what really leads to that scene(H) not unless the player is aiming for Nukige but still they still be force to go to the story.

I would also say no cause there are people who are already tired of H-scene and highly aimed for the plot because they saw a review or a summary about it saying that this has a great story. Well it depends on the interpretation of the review.

To summarize things or my conclusion to this, it really depends on the human urge to like H-scene or not. We get turned on on it, emotional on it, moved, disgust and etc... and just hope it doesn't get way to serious. If you know what I mean.

[Tay]

I went to the neighboring town to pick up a dollhouse for my wife (restoring them is her hobby of choice), and I couldn't stop thinking about Schadenfreude and harry_kinomoto's comment exchange. I'm going to do my best to translate all of my thoughts into this post.

I respect all of the opinions I will be quoting, and while I disagree with many of them, it's my intention to be respectful and consider all opinions on equal footing. If my words lead to sound condescending in any way, it's a failure of the writing and not purposefully done.

Note: I'm not going to tie the following thoughts back to the VN realm because both harry and Schadenfreude did so in their posts.

Lastly... In the Sharin no Kuni Fandisc, Ari Houzuki said:

The relationship between a man and a woman is about a hole and a rod. Those who insist upon describing this as “love” will succumb to their own depravity.

Harry rejected this idea, and as I was driving an important point came to mind: the ultimate rejection of this idea came from Houzuki himself who realized it as a self-deception. The coolest moment of the FD was when he went off after the woman he loved. That's an awesome and powerful lesson.

Sex is complex because it comes in so many shades and in so many different contexts. That said, Schadenfreude is correct in saying that sex does not equal love.

I'm saying sex is essential in an adult novel... sex != love. sex is also not greater or lesser than love. what it is is the utmost level of intimacy, so depending on the girl's personality, sex might be as routine as enjoying a fresh dinner or as sacred as letting someone know her deepest, darkest secret.

[Continuing from my previous comments] With that said, I reject the idea that sex and love are apples and oranges ("sex is not greater or lesser than love"). Real love can amplified by sex, can be strengthened by it, and can be expressed by it, but sex without love is nothing but instinct. In my experience and opinion, the two are very much connected, but true love always weighs out to be the ultimate of all human experience, without peer.

dates are different, when modern people go on dates, there is an anticipation of sex from one or both parties. that's the "point" of a date, to size up if someone is worth setting with long term. why else is a date usually the penultimate event in a dating sim to the confession and banging?

I agree that dating is a way to "size up" a potential partner against one's long-term future, but I'd argue that the super-majority of people going on dates are dating to "fall in love," and that sex is a product of that love. Obviously, that's not always the case, but in my mind the "modern people" conjured up in that passage are a construct of popular entertainment and, ultimately, myth.

banging

(Sorry, can't help it) Such an ugly term.

[ElectroNick]

I don't know if someone said something similar already but ero scenes in Visual Novels make them almost impossible to recommend to my friends. Even though alot of these games have a very small amount of H, its problematic when trying to recommend it to someone who likes that type of story, but perhaps might not want to have boobs all up in their faces. Thats not to say that my friends are prude or anything, its just hard to recommend something that has pornographic content in it.

Actually, if someone made a "naughty bits blocker" like they do when posting screenshots on the MangaGamer blog I would have almost not trouble recommending these games to friends.

[harry_kinomoto]

@TayPROF Tay: Nice summary. IRL this is a deeply personal topic and each person will come up with their own conclusions - hence why I resisted adding my own into the mix. But by using VN and related media as examples, I was better able to make explicit the reality of either side of the fence, and in doing so, encourage readers to make their own choice on the matter. You see, it is crucially important that whenever a person makes a choice, he/she is fully aware of both negative and positive implications of their choice, and that said choice is made only AFTER these implications have been given due consideration. An informed decision if you will - not dissimilar in principle to what is known in certain fields as informed consent – which you may well have come across during your own travels at some point

(@everyone: )

Anyways, given the relative importance of this topic and the amount of interest it has generated, I think it fitting to add in a little omake~

Disclaimer: this topic is difficult, complex, highly personal, and some people spend entire lives in vain searching for an answer. If I had any choice in the matter I would make it such that no one below the age of 16 sees this - not because I discuss anything explicit; but rather because it is easy to jump to rash conclusions on it without at least some life experience. Of course that's not a possible request on the internet so I'll just say this: don't be satisfied with just one type of answer; trust your intuitions and the voice from your own heart!

...true love always weighs out to be the ultimate of all human experience, without peer.

Not a conclusion I disagree with. However, let’s take it a few steps further. What, exactly, is “true love”? More specifically, where and when does “just friends” progress to become “true love”; or are they one and the same??

The standard answer to this tends to make reference to the fact that “love” in its entirety takes many forms. Wikipedia, for example, lists 4 types:

• Platonic love (“just friends”)
  
• Familial love (between family members)
  
• Romance (between lovers)
  
• Eroticism (sexual feelings)
  

...and that’s all well and good until you realise that that hasn’t actually answered the question. Because even though they have different names, it does not imply them to be mutually exclusive, nor does it suggest a greater ability to differentiate them; or indeed better enable you to define where one starts and another ends. Indeed it raises more questions than it does answers, the million-dollar one being:

What relation, if any, do these categories have with this legendary "true love"?

If you haven’t yet been totally scared off, let me give you an idea of the scale of this question by referencing Schadenfreude and Tay:

sex != love. sex is also not greater or lesser than love. what it is is the utmost level of intimacy

Real love can amplified by sex, can be strengthened by it, and can be expressed by it, but sex without love is nothing but instinct... the two are very much connected.

Schadenfreude is right. You literally can’t get closer (physically anyway) to a person than by having sex with them. But is doing so really as interlinked with ”real” love as Tay argues? If it is, does it then mean that familial love, or your love for your mates, is not “real”, because it does not include having sex? By extension, does this mean that VNs looking to showcase “real” love actually SHOULD include sex scenes after all? Is incest indeed WINcest because by combining three different types of love (familial, romantic and erotic) it is made that much more powerful? And if not, what is it in normal sibling, and other non-eroticised relationships, that makes any love in them ”real” or “true”?? Any attempt at answering the main question should, at least, suggest a way to approach each of these dilemmas.

***

I don’t really expect replies, but anyone willing to share their thoughts would be highly welcome and indeed encouraged. To be given the opportunity to read and understand differing opinions is indeed what makes forums so enjoyable, after all~

[meru]

Very interesting discussion going on here. Although I don't have anything to add really, as I gave up pondering "true love" and the like ages ago because it hurt my head, and decided to just ~go with the flow~

As far as love in vn is concerned.. I personally feel that love between two people can be demonstrated with or without sex; it's all down to good storytelling. If it's done well, people should be able to empathize with this love even if they believe that "true love" for themselves should happen a different way.

And sorry to interrupt the topic, but I just wanted to mention a few things related to the commercial rather than philosophical side of sex in vn..

A lot of people are mentioning that studios probably feel they have to have ero in their vn in order to sell them. I'm thinking that it would be really interesting to be able to test this theory.. does anyone have any concrete stats on how well the non-adult Key vn have sold, in comparison to the releases with adult content?

Also I think it would be fascinating to do a survey of Japanese consumers of visual novels to see their opinions. (I specifically say Japanese consumers as this is who the creators are marketing to). Do most consumers buy vn for the ero content or the story? Are people who might be interested in the stories put off by the ero content? Or even put off vn altogether because of a perceived notion that all vn are 'hentai'? What companies are seeking to target markets other than the stereotypical 'horny otaku'? There's otome games for starters, although some of these also feature adult scenes..

Lots of questions.. I'm off to do some googling

[Supah Kawaii Weeaboo]

Recently, I've posted (under the username Gekiganwing) on some developers' forums about this topic. If you're curious, it was the main forums for the work-in-progress visual novels Missing Stars (formerly Mentaru Shoujo) and Starshine Academy. I basically told them, "If you wanna include on-screen sex scenes, that's fine. But including NSFW content is not necessary, or sometimes even beneficial." I mentioned how obligatory sex scenes can disrupt a good story, and how including NSFW content to placate fans can be a gimmick.

The following categories have an awful lot of overlap. I'm hoping for a little more distance in between these:

* Romance game

* (Reverse) harem game

* Porn game

* Visual novel

If there were more video games in English that fit into _only one_ of the above categories, that'd be great.

[meru]

The following categories have an awful lot of overlap. I'm hoping for a little more distance in between these:

* Romance game

* (Reverse) harem game

* Porn game

* Visual novel

If there were more video games in English that fit into _only one_ of the above categories, that'd be great.

I agree that it might be good to have more vn that stick to one category rather than trying to appeal to everyone via including H-scenes (and actually ending up alienating some potential fans).

However, there are games now that you could label as standard 'porn games' (nukige, etc) - but these often tend to be rather 'hardcore', and maybe if the market started separating 'adult' and 'general audience' vn, the 'adult' section would become populated by only the hardcore, plotless stuff. I mean if you look at porn in the West, there isn't that much like the strange middle ground that Japan has, which is very much pornographic material, but can often be seen as rather "cute" and sugary.

I really enjoy a good story, and definitely think that there is a place for more general-audience vn. But I also like being able to encounter H-scenes within a narrative, or with romance involved, and I do often play vn based on the quality of the H-scenes ^^;;

Maybe I'm just a massive pervert....

[harry_kinomoto]

Hmm, hmm~

The following categories have an awful lot of overlap. I'm hoping for a little more distance in between these:

* Romance game

* (Reverse) harem game

* Porn game

* Visual novel

If there were more video games in English that fit into _only one_ of the above categories, that'd be great.

Strongly disagree. Having them as isolate categories was what the gaming scene many years back looked like. What you call “romance games”, for example, probably refers to the primitive datesim format where you’d do something like speak to your potential soulmate, and get given “love points” based on what you did for them. Obviously, dating IRL is NOTHING like this - and thank goodness some bright spark in the industry actually REALISED this and did something about it by adding in a few more variables to what was supposed to be a romantic experience! Most eroge today are hence a combination of the “romance game” and “visual novel” categories simply because devs realise that this makes for a more rounded experience. While players can and do no doubt choose VNs based on the subjective quality of the H-scenes, said players still take both H-scene AND story as a package. Put another way...

[most players] like to get to 'know' a character before the sex - what can I say, I guess I'm just an ol' romantic - so I also like having the sex scenes anchored in some kind of story.

...and, imo at least, the industry has been loads better off for it!!

******

I agree that it might be good to have more vn that stick to one category rather than trying to appeal to everyone via including H-scenes (and actually ending up alienating some potential fans).

Doing things just to appeal to the audience is precisely what I don't want devs to do. Trying to reverse-engineer their original creative process just so that they can cater to what they think the audience wants (which is not necessarily the same as what they ACTUALLY want) is just an insult to freedom of expression. What I DO want them to do is make the decision only by thinking if THEY think it is suitable for THEIR story. Whatever comes out next is taken as-is, and, if at all necessary, the job of the marketing department to decide who may or may not like it!

******

However, there are games now that you could label as standard 'porn games' (nukige, etc) - but these often tend to be rather 'hardcore', and maybe if the market started separating 'adult' and 'general audience' vn, the 'adult' section would become populated by only the hardcore, plotless stuff. I mean if you look at porn in the West, there isn't that much like the strange middle ground that Japan has, which is very much pornographic material, but can often be seen as rather "cute" and sugary.

A phenomenon that could be explained a great deal, I could argue, by the phenomenon known as “Moe”.

(ADDENDUM: which you actually knew all about already, but I'm going to tell you anyways )

A whistle-stop definition for those not yet familiar with them term. Moe is that feel you get when you just finished a VN that has plumbed the depths of your soul. It is the vision of glory that you thereafter see, the strength and will that inspires you into action to realise that vision, and the hope that makes you feel it’s worth fighting for, dying for, even! Often it is used in the context of characters - the idealistic, bumbling try-hard who gets curb-stomped when (s)he is exposed to the evils of the world; that younger version of yourself whom you know precisely how to set on the right path; that innocent child who wandered up to the hungry man-eating lion that none dared approach thinking to give it a present, like, y’know, just ‘cos (s)he thought it looked cute...

It just so happens that luck is on your side that day, and you manage to save the child, who doesn’t have family to go back to, and as it also happens, is actually becoming quite attached to you. You have a spare room and time on your hands, and since you’re not going to just leave a child out on the street, you think “why not?”. Your previously empty life is enriched a great deal by your unexpected guest, whom you end up spending a great deal of time with. But while you do not find this annoying as per se, perhaps what you do find infuriating is how you would often be interrupted, while bathing, by your guest, who would presume to join you, stark naked, but not before chiming in with a voice completely devoid of erotic intention:

“Let’s play!”

You see, Moe is a curious term. It is unique to Japanese vocabulary: none like it exist in English, and attempts to explain the concept inspired the Japanese government to fund a task-force to research this very topic - without much success. What in Japanese culture has spawned such a seemingly unexplainable concept? Answers provided tend to address things like how children in traditional Japanese families end up forming extremely close bonds with their family and other children. Myself I have no love for such theories, which sound like far-fetched psychobabble at best. Nevertheless the dilemma posed by both Moe and these cultural peculiarities is clear: where lie the boundaries of love? In its truest form moe does not have erotic connotations, but in relationships where other forms of love grow ever stronger, perhaps, so too, does the need for an answer; and the many forms of porn that Japan has sprung perhaps an indirect reflection of that need.

*****

Maybe I'm just a massive pervert....

And know, comrade, that as long as you carry that title with the prudence and discretion that it so deserves, that there is no crime in that. At all. Salut! Edited October 3, 2012 by harry_kinomoto

[Saber]

In my opinion, H-scene may or may not be necessary depending on the setting and plot. The first "porn" I watched before VN H-scene was H animes and that really give me an idea of how meaningless H-scenes can be. When I play my first VN however, I realize how sex can be put as an integral part of the plot and how it can enhance the experience that much more.

I also think that the H-scene somewhat forced in some visual novels. I play the game for the story, but sometimes an H-scene out of nowhere can really ruin the experience. I agree that maybe H-scene aren't really needed depending on the VN, but I say that rather than necessity, it is more like a bonus (at least to me).

I am not going to really argue about the marketing reasoning for it, simply because it is obvious that that is a factor. However we have seen more and more VN in recent times moving to consoles, and thus don't have that H-scenes. As an example, I have (and still playing) Robotics;Notes on PS3. It has no H-scene, but it doesn't reduce the experience at all.

[Beato]

Of course they're not 'necessary' but then what is?

While I'm also of the opinion that a lot of H-scenes in visual novels feel very forced I also think it's good that they dare to include them at all.

It's pretty strange how it's completly okay to portray extreme violence in our media these days, but something as normal as sex is frowned upon.

It's weird really, that sex is seen as something shameful.

I do think there's a problem with how sex is portrayed in VN's in general though. But that's something else altogether.

[Sakamoto]

This is a good read on how nukige slowly evolved into nakige (crying game):

http://www.shii.org/geekstories/eroge.html

In short, back in the PC98 days, H-games were the driving force in computer sales. Yeah, sex used to sell in the past. And it still does now.

[okami55]

Personally, I have no problem with H-scenes. I do like the VNs that actually have an H-scene help with plot or character development instead of just being there. If two characters love each other and want to consummate their relationship than I think that helps show that the H-scene isn't there just to be there; But because it is showing that both characters love each other and feel comfortable enough around each other to take their relationship to the next level.

I do like how Katawa Shoujo does let people turn off the H-scenes. I think more VNs should allow that for the people that don't want to see the H-scenes.

[zZJoennZz]

First, I didn't read the other post, I just read the first post. I'll just tell my view point about this matter. And I'm not good at English.

So, I didn't play VN for H-Scenes, I play because of the story and I just think of it as bonus. Sometimes, I like the scenes but sometimes it feels awkward. I already played 6 VNs with H-Scenes and I really didn't read some from the scenes and just skip until their done. But that moment is just how to show their love but not needed in my opinion. I played a game without that scenes and I really like that VN because of the story and it moved me. That's all.

[Joachim]

Sex is all about context isn't it ? Making it powerful or gross. Opinions on this matter are dependable on ones own experiences then.

In visual novels there is considerable amount of young male readers, being socially awkward, that need a feeling of control over these strong powerful fantasy characters you find in visual novels. And sex is the strongest form of domination you can get. Aren't in most eroge an anal or doggy style sex scene ? They might be the most humiliating and painful positions for the women.

As despicable as it can be to tackle cheap, poorly timed sex scenes into an otherwise polished product, this decision is made to please a substancial part of the consummer base. It might get back the money they invested, and maybe a bonus, making possible to fund a new ambitious project.

[torbin12]

I don't personally mind h-scenes in one way or the other, provided that the entire game isn't just one giant fap-session. I don't mind there being a large amount of h-scenes, as long as the story is at least somewhat redeemable (but I have a fairly low bar, so that's not exactly hard.) On the same token but the other hand, I also do not mind if the novel has no h-scenes in it at all, as long as the story hasn't become so watered down, or weird, like they are trying to 'specifically' navigate around what would have in any other story been an h-scene. Although I don't know if this describes my stance all that well.

[Tay]

Sex is all about context isn't it ? Making it powerful or gross. Opinions on this matter are dependable on ones own experiences then.

In visual novels there is considerable amount of young male readers, being socially awkward, that need a feeling of control over these strong powerful fantasy characters you find in visual novels. And sex is the strongest form of domination you can get. Aren't in most eroge an anal or doggy style sex scene ? They might be the most humiliating and painful positions for the women.

As despicable as it can be to tackle cheap, poorly timed sex scenes into an otherwise polished product, this decision is made to please a substancial part of the consummer base. It might get back the money they invested, and maybe a bonus, making possible to fund a new ambitious project.

Context is definitely key. That said, there's a reason Hollywood never shows "everything" -- sexual tension and effect is most effective when held back a little. In my opinion (and that's all it is) H scenes are a fan service meant to sell games, and unfortunately I've never seen one that casts the male/female in equal lights.

One REALLY great example is Sharin no Kuni. No sex scenes the entire game until the post-epilogue. At that point, with all the emotion and tragedy and drama, the sex isn't needed.

That said, some people play VNs only for the sex scenes. In that case, see my point: "a fan service meant to sell games".

[Joachim]

Context is definitely key. That said, there's a reason Hollywood never shows "everything" -- sexual tension and effect is most effective when held back a little. In my opinion (and that's all it is) H scenes are a fan service meant to sell games, and unfortunately I've never seen one that casts the male/female in equal lights.

I thought Saya no Uta has good sex scenes because she is the drive of them at least ! There was this horrible rape scene sadly though .

One REALLY great example is Sharin no Kuni. No sex scenes the entire game until the post-epilogue. At that point, with all the emotion and tragedy and drama, the sex isn't needed.

I didn't play the game but to me this is the ideal way to pace sex scenes. It is meant to be a reward but in most vns they are given so easily you don't feel worth it. In the case these scenes where done satisfactory enough at least. I recently played Yume Miru Kusuri, and the heroine, a introvert bullied and lonesome girl, let herself been penetrated by the main character she doesn't even know, like a horny stray cat. Even the art was painful to the eyes.

That said, some people play VNs only for the sex scenes. In that case, see my point: "a fan service meant to sell games".

Exactly ! But it is very poor hentai and that is the point I don't understand. It is a shallow and repetitive business. I didn't play much vns so far but each scenes I read played almost exactly the same. As a reward it is incredibly insulting because the quality of it is excruciating. I wonder why they don't pay professional hentai artists ? It seems that the creators are doing it without heart because it is part of their checklist of features to add.

[Moekou]

I recently played Yume Miru Kusuri, and the heroine, a introvert bullied and lonesome girl, let herself been penetrated by the main character she doesn't even know, like a horny stray cat. Even the art was painful to the eyes.

Actually, it was rather the other way around. Aeka actually essentially blackmailed Kouhei into having a relationship with her, threatening to kill herself if he didn't. She was the one to initiate the relationship when the protagonist had no real romantic or sexual interest in her at that point. I adored/pitied her enough that I didn't see this in my first playthrough, but I noticed this upon reflection. Aeka was not merely "letting herself be penetrated". It's foreshadowing that she's not quite all right in the head after all that bullying...

What did you dislike about the art?

[Joachim]

Actually, it was rather the other way around. Aeka actually essentially blackmailed Kouhei into having a relationship with her, threatening to kill herself if he didn't. She was the one to initiate the relationship when the protagonist had no real romantic or sexual interest in her at that point. I adored/pitied her enough that I didn't see this in my first playthrough, but I noticed this upon reflection. Aeka was not merely "letting herself be penetrated". It's foreshadowing that she's not quite all right in the head after all that bullying...

What did you dislike about the art?

I understand that it is a way to pity her even more. But I am too sentimental and this kind of stuff creeps me out. I need to feel some efforts to be comfortable with these parts. I think it is a bit too convenient too, it seem tacked on to please impatient people. But you make me want to pick it up again.

Well, what irks me about the art is that imagefor example. Her foot is disturbing to say the least . Her other leg is completly out of proportion too. The blood is disgusting, and she has the features of a 12 years old ! This I guess is a matter of taste though.

Edit: I feel like to explain better what I wanted to say. It is hard to get attached to her because of this early scene. I don't know her, I just barely talked to her, and the game didn't show much of her as well. To become emotionally invested I need incentives, and this scene just blew it away. It was way too soon ! But I'm kind of difficult, in the end you are helping me getting through my doubts and enjoying the story even more, so I feel like being finicky is totally rewarding in this case .

[Moekou]

I understand that it is a way to pity her even more. But I am too sentimental and this kind of stuff creeps me out. I need to feel some efforts to be comfortable with these parts. I think it is a bit too convenient too, it seem tacked on to please impatient people. But you make me want to pick it up again.

Well, what irks me about the art is that imagefor example. Her foot is disturbing to say the least . Her other leg is completly out of proportion too. The blood is disgusting, and she has the features of a 12 years old ! This I guess is a matter of taste though.

Huh, I never noticed that it was out of proportion before! I also initially didn't like the art style but it really grew on me.

The thing is though, I believe the fact that she's blackmailing you into sex isn't meant to increase her pity value, but rather makes you think about how damaged she is. Indeed, if I didn't pity her so much and blame it mostly on the damage from the bullying, it'd cause me to think rather negatively about her. Even through the story the protagonist only slowly embraces her and tries to help her, and even then doesn't initially do too much to save her. You aren't meant to feel comfortable, because the relationship and atmosphere of bullying is terrifying and doesn't magically go away just because you're now Aeka's boyfriend.

By the way, you're thinking from the angle of the sex as a reward. While this may be true for some audience, in the story I felt it was the other way around. Imagine if you were minding your own business and suddenly come across a girl you've never talked to trying to jump off a bridge, and she intends to kill herself out of having no one in her life that cares about her. At least you're not one of the people that bullies her, and next thing you know, she essentially implies she'll only stop trying to kill herself if you become her boyfriend and have sex with her, otherwise she's jumping to her death right now. What would you do? Like sex scenes, to some people, it'd be a reward to suddenly "score a cute girlfriend", but I think the scenario should be very uncomfortable for the guy, and was in the case of Kouhei. She was not a target of his affections, and he seemed like the type of guy that prefers to mind his own business. I think it's best to see it as a story rather than assuming the girl is intended to be the objectified perfect girlfriend (I've actually seen one VN where the proper resolution with a girl is to break up with her because you realize she's a bad influence in your life).

But you brought up an interesting tangent to this thread when you said the blood was disgusting. It is realistic that girls usually bleed the first time they have sex because of their hymen being broken. However, it grosses lots of guys out so VN and hentai usually omit it for the sake of more widespread sexual appeal. What are people's opinions on this? Should blood be omitted in first-time sex scenes?

[okami55]

Context is definitely key. That said, there's a reason Hollywood never shows "everything" -- sexual tension and effect is most effective when held back a little. In my opinion (and that's all it is) H scenes are a fan service meant to sell games, and unfortunately I've never seen one that casts the male/female in equal lights.

One REALLY great example is Sharin no Kuni. No sex scenes the entire game until the post-epilogue. At that point, with all the emotion and tragedy and drama, the sex isn't needed.

That said, some people play VNs only for the sex scenes. In that case, see my point: "a fan service meant to sell games".

That seems pretty unfortunate though. It gets more people into the VN genre but if all they are into the genre for is the H-Scenes wouldn't it be better to for them to watch adult material or Hentai instead?

Kinda like the people who read ASOIAF/watch Game of Thrones not for the great story, amazing cast of characters, and political intrigue but just for the nudity. I am sure that some of the people that go into VNs just for the H-scenes and end up liking the genre for more than the H-scenes but I am also sure there are some that don't care about the genre, just the H-scenes. Which as I said before is unfortunate.

[Joachim]

Huh, I never noticed that it was out of proportion before! I also initially didn't like the art style but it really grew on me.

Yeah the art isn't fancy but still decent enough to be enjoyable.

This scene has huge mistakes though, and I believe they were really tight on budget and time, which is sad because it is ambitious at least.

The thing is though, I believe the fact that she's blackmailing you into sex isn't meant to increase her pity value, but rather makes you think about how damaged she is. Indeed, if I didn't pity her so much and blame it mostly on the damage from the bullying, it'd cause me to think rather negatively about her. Even through the story the protagonist only slowly embraces her and tries to help her, and even then doesn't initially do too much to save her. You aren't meant to feel comfortable, because the relationship and atmosphere of bullying is terrifying and doesn't magically go away just because you're now Aeka's boyfriend.

You are right, I believe it is as you said. I still have a hard time taking this character seriously because of this scene. My opinion is that this is tied to the question you ask in the end of your post: at what point does realism hinders your enjoyment of an experience. Even though it makes sense in my mind now that you explained it to me, I don't see it as character development, mood construction, or foreshadowing, to me it feels just gross but as an experience. I think that these omnipresent sex scenes are so silly that it shifts from an interesting and insightful story, to a typical eroge that aims to make you horny.

By the way, you're thinking from the angle of the sex as a reward. While this may be true for some audience, in the story I felt it was the other way around. Imagine if you were minding your own business and suddenly come across a girl you've never talked to trying to jump off a bridge, and she intends to kill herself out of having no one in her life that cares about her. At least you're not one of the people that bullies her, and next thing you know, she essentially implies she'll only stop trying to kill herself if you become her boyfriend and have sex with her, otherwise she's jumping to her death right now. What would you do? Like sex scenes, to some people, it'd be a reward to suddenly "score a cute girlfriend", but I think the scenario should be very uncomfortable for the guy, and was in the case of Kouhei. She was not a target of his affections, and he seemed like the type of guy that prefers to mind his own business. I think it's best to see it as a story rather than assuming the girl is intended to be the objectified perfect girlfriend (I've actually seen one VN where the proper resolution with a girl is to break up with her because you realize she's a bad influence in your life).

I like to define myself as a pragmatic: whatever I read or watch, I need to understand how it aims to entertain me, and what conclusion I will get at the end and it's lasting impact on my mind. Sex is a process of physical trust to me. To gain this trust you have to live through hardships, having knowledge of the other person, but of yourself as well. It is really rare to get, but it certainly is the best reward people can give you. The stories by Key are done in that fashion, and that is why I still have fond memories of my time with it.

If I were in the same situation and mindset as you said, I would become her boyfriend because I genuinely care and I am interested in her. And it is the exact same reason why I wouldn't have sex with her. It is not only sad for her, but for the hero as well, because you basically take advantage of her weakness, and you take away all responsibility by saying you didn't have the choice. She needs affection, not a penis ! In her state she can't take responsible decisions, or make believable statements about her emotions. I expected it to be more psychological, and thoughtful, a reflexion of real life problems. It might still be true, and I'm obviously a cry baby about these issues . I still objectively say that it is a waste though. Imagine having a story with a reasonable hero. In the game you have choices to care for her or not. If it takes the player's choices in consideration, it is only logical to believe he has an interest in her. And now is the moment where the scenario takes a complete other road, because the main character, the player himself, is destroying her last shred of dignity. Playing through I feel like a horrible person. And I don't mind being bad, I love Saya no Uta and the way it's protagonist lose all moral thinking. In the case of Yume Miru Kusuri it is different because I feel like the choices I took are in total opposition with the result I get in the end. I feel like I have to choose between watching her being utterly destroyed, or doing it myself. I understand it might be the point of the story, but I don't want that kind of story, because I'm an optimist and I need hope.

But you brought up an interesting tangent to this thread when you said the blood was disgusting. It is realistic that girls usually bleed the first time they have sex because of their hymen being broken. However, it grosses lots of guys out so VN and hentai usually omit it for the sake of more widespread sexual appeal. What are people's opinions on this? Should blood be omitted in first-time sex scenes?

That is a really good question ! It seems I prefer delusions, for the sake of my enjoyment. Strangely enough I like realism and slice of life though. There is a fine line between realism and fantasy that the writers have to walk on I guess. When I think about it real life romance are monotonous and tiresome compared to their fantasy counter parts. Like real life sex can be quite a bothersome business in some cases. I want to dream about exotic and powerful romance and girls, because I might never experience them in my real life. I want the experience to be polished to intensify these important feelings I seek, and sometimes realism just get in the way of it !

That seems pretty unfortunate though. It gets more people into the VN genre but if all they are into the genre for is the H-Scenes wouldn't it be better to for them to watch adult material or Hentai instead?

Kinda like the people who read ASOIAF/watch Game of Thrones not for the great story, amazing cast of characters, and political intrigue but just for the nudity. I am sure that some of the people that go into VNs just for the H-scenes and end up liking the genre for more than the H-scenes but I am also sure there are some that don't care about the genre, just the H-scenes. Which as I said before is unfortunate.

I thought about it, and I still can't understand why these people don't watch porn instead. They might be masochists, I mean, in 10-20 hours for completing a vn, you might have only 2-3 poorly drawn images . I can't wrap my head around this idea, does this people really exist ? I wonder how many people got into vns because of their interest for H scenes ! A poll anyone ?

[meru]

That seems pretty unfortunate though. It gets more people into the VN genre but if all they are into the genre for is the H-Scenes wouldn't it be better to for them to watch adult material or Hentai instead?

Kinda like the people who read ASOIAF/watch Game of Thrones not for the great story, amazing cast of characters, and political intrigue but just for the nudity. I am sure that some of the people that go into VNs just for the H-scenes and end up liking the genre for more than the H-scenes but I am also sure there are some that don't care about the genre, just the H-scenes. Which as I said before is unfortunate.

I am one of those who discovered vn by being a horny teenager, but was hooked because of the stories, art, and so on AS WELL AS the H scenes. For me, I like H scenes in vn because they can be sweet as well as erotic, and because they are provided in context. Most porn is just random sex without any narrative, the same with hentai, which also often isn't that great to look at in terms of art. I like that vn provide sex within a story, and because of the style of the genre you get to know the character, and feel close to them. I'm sure that this is a huge appeal for a lot of the young Japanese men who play these games, and one of the reasons why the majority of vn include sex scenes (so in this sense, H scenes are probably seen as a 'necessity' in commercial terms). As I wrote earlier, I don't really want vn to be divided between 'porn' games and 'story' games - I like to have ones that include both. That being said, I enjoy vn both with & without H scenes, and like others have said I definitely do think there are some cases where the H scenes actually spoil the story.

Anyway, this is just my personal opinion. I kind of feel like I'm in the minority in finding H scenes to be one of the appeals of vn, which is surprising! But I really enjoy discussions like this, where I get to see other people's perspectives, and their reasons for playing vn.

[Wolfscythe]

Really a controversial topic we have here... in my case i will say yes and no, there are absolutely VN's where the h-scenes really have a purpose and enrichens the plot like in the case of Saya no Uta like some already said, there's the case of Baldr Force too, personally I played first the ps2 version, it was pretty good and the gameplay is entertaining too, but my point lies here... there are several points in the history where this guy that insane is the only word that comes to my mind right now to describe him rapes almost each of the girls ijn their respective arc's, but in the ps2 version of course all the h-material was removed, so in the final, having compared the ps2 and the pc versions lacked some... impact because of this. Don't get me wrong, i'm not into that kind of thing, the rape scenes aren't really my type, but in this case those scenes really more than getting you excited, makes you want to kill this guy and in the ps2 version when he appears it's not that significative like in the other version.

Now, parting from here we have the difference between versions, normally the console versions get the 18+ material removed but they get a "bonus", something like if they had to compensate that they removed the h-scenes, OK, normally of course they're newer versions so some adds are to be expected but it really feels like "Well, we'll take this so have this instead...".

Of course all that isn't a hot cake with ice cream, honey and all kinds of sweets above it... There are times that absolutely is not only not necessary but breaks all the atmosphere and makes you feel like "How the hell did we got here?", taking away what was a plot away, at least for a moment until you release ctrl....

Anyway, that's my humble opinion...:3