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Learn Japanese Together: Super Challenge 2013


Tay

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I know it's too late, but I want sign up now! A challenge, no, it's a super challenge! So cool, it make me interest in! How i can join this challenge?

First of all, I love Vietnam! I've never been there, but I've read a lot about it and have really respected all the people I know from there.

As far as the challenge goes... There are a lot of us who are in the middle of the Kanji stage right now. As I/we go through the program, we'll update it with lots of resources and links, but it's built so that anybody who wants to join can join at any time!

We'd love to have you!

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I didn't want to start new topic on this...

I need little help smile.gif

even though I'm not participating in this program, I am slowly learning myself too, although using different method.

And today, I was again listening to one of my favorite songs when I noticed something weird I never noticed before.

I always looked at the name of the song 同じ星に生まれた as a "Born IN the same star".

However today when I saw the name, it hit me... 生まれる is not an existential verb!

So when you use that verb you have to use で -> 東京で生まれた - Born in Tokyo.

So I was thinking what the correct translation is. There is 同じ家族に生まれた which would probably mean something like "Born into/to the same family". However that wouldn't work here either. The next possibility would be "Born from/of the same star" where the star would be the source of energy to the birth, which would probably make sense, but wouldn't から fit better for that purpose?

The last thing would be "Born under the same star" which would sound good too, but first off wouldn't that be 同じ星の下に生まれた but then again it is a place with combination with non-existential verb. But it is often used to indicate when someone was born under a star (lucky one for example). But the correct way to do action under a star is 星の下で. So why the に in both cases with 生まれる verb, when its supposed to be indicating a place, just like Tokyo. Or is it just not given if 生まれる is existential verb or isn't because I even found Japanese people having problem with that: http://detail.chiebu...ail/q1418506674 xD

Then one of them said that it just feels better to say 東京で and 東京に sounds unnatural in conversation, but can be used in narration. ohmy.gif

So is it just simple explanation as that, using what feels more natural?

Well it would explain a lot and although it is not that common in English to use "wrong" particle, in Czech language it is common too, also in connection to being born, for one city Prague I have to say Born "v Praze" in Prague. But for different city I can say Born "v Kladne/ na Kladne" in Kladno/on Kladno ohmy.gif

... JP Particles Y U SO HARD???

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I didn't want to start new topic on this...

I need little help smile.gif

even though I'm not participating in this program, I am slowly learning myself too, although using different method.

And today, I was again listening to one of my favorite songs when I noticed something weird I never noticed before.

I always looked at the name of the song 同じ星に生まれた as a "Born IN the same star".

However today when I saw the name, it hit me... 生まれる is not an existential verb!

So when you use that verb you have to use で -> 東京で生まれた - Born in Tokyo.

So I was thinking what the correct translation is. There is 同じ家族に生まれた which would probably mean something like "Born into/to the same family". However that wouldn't work here either. The next possibility would be "Born from/of the same star" where the star would be the source of energy to the birth, which would probably make sense, but wouldn't から fit better for that purpose?

The last thing would be "Born under the same star" which would sound good too, but first off wouldn't that be 同じ星の下に生まれた but then again it is a place with combination with non-existential verb. But it is often used to indicate when someone was born under a star (lucky one for example). But the correct way to do action under a star is 星の下で. So why the に in both cases with 生まれる verb, when its supposed to be indicating a place, just like Tokyo. Or is it just not given if 生まれる is existential verb or isn't because I even found Japanese people having problem with that: http://detail.chiebu...ail/q1418506674 xD

Then one of them said that it just feels better to say 東京で and 東京に sounds unnatural in conversation, but can be used in narration. ohmy.gif

So is it just simple explanation as that, using what feels more natural?

Well it would explain a lot and although it is not that common in English to use "wrong" particle, in Czech language it is common too, also in connection to being born, for one city Prague I have to say Born "v Praze" in Prague. But for different city I can say Born "v Kladne/ na Kladne" in Kladno/on Kladno ohmy.gif

... JP Particles Y U SO HARD???

First of all, this is why programming a computer to understand human language is so hard. Sooner or later, human languages become illogical and stop following their own rules.

Secondly, remember:

There may be more than one way to express the same idea.

Sometimes two different expressions in Japanese map to the _same expression_ in English or other languages.

Sometimes the _same expression_ in Japanese maps to _two different expressions_ in English or other languages, depending on how it's being used.

And so on.

In this case, when I see "onaji hoshi ni umareta" I immediately think "born under the same star" because that's how you tell someone in English that you were born in the same period of the zodiac. "Born on the same star" doesn't mean much in English, neither does "born in the same star". Unless you're a solar flare. But if it had said "onaji hoshi de umareta" I would've thought the same thing.

This business of which verb goes with which particle/preposition/auxiliary/whatever is called "collocation" and it's a major part of learning any foreign language.

In this case, grammar does not help so much. What helps is your experience that both "ni" and "de" can be used with "umareta". Even though the meaning might be the same. In English, there's a lot of stuff you have to memorize like this, like "I live IN Alabama" or "I work AT Chrysler." I can't easily tell you why IN is used in one and AT is used in the other. It just is. So to do English properly, you just have to learn "this verb goes with these prepositions". To do Japanese properly, you have to learn "this verb goes with these particles." Have you learned the difference between "ki ni suru" and "ki ga suru" yet? That'll be hard to explain in terms of grammar. But if you memorize them as idioms, you'll be ok.

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I see, again you are a lifesaver Zoom xD

Yeah we have lot of those contradictions to grammar in Czech too so I just wanted to make sure how it is.

If you remember last time one particle cost me the whole translation (the sentence with the big boobs xD)

About ki ni suru and ki ga suru... I only met ki ni suru as it is often used as ki ni shinai in VNs.

I don't think I ever met with ki ga suru as I would probably be really confused about it xD.

Anyway have a picture for your nice explanation

ojK5PTo.jpg

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  • 5 weeks later...

I'd like to sign up for this. I've always been interested in learning Japanese and tried to use a program where I could learn the Katakana and inevitably after two weeks, I became a part of the group of people that "puts the project on hold for 'one or two days', and never returns." I'll be making a blog shortly after this post. I just hope that doing things this way will make it easier for me to make a habit out of it.

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I'd like to sign up for this. I've always been interested in learning Japanese and tried to use a program where I could the Katakana and inevitably after two weeks, I became a part of the group of people that "puts the project on hold for 'one or two days', and never returns." I'll be making a blog shortly after this post. I just hope that doing things this way will make it easier for me to make a habit out of it.

Looking forward to having you join us!

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  • 3 weeks later...

Is it possible that we can learn with Japanese music too so we can immerse into the language

A lot of people suggest that the more immersion = the better. This is a great way to do so. So.... Yeah, absolutely!

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Is it possible that we can learn with Japanese music too so we can immerse into the language

My personal experience is that music doesn't help that much with grammar and such (particles in particular), but it helps you gain a better understanding of how everything is pronounced.

But just to echo Tay, the more immersion the better.

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Is it possible that we can learn with Japanese music too so we can immerse into the language

I've been told many times that music isn't the best way to learn, but it doesn't hurt to try. When I was teaching English, I would sometimes use songs with my students, and it worked really well in developing their comprehension and listening.

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I'll echo these last two comments -- Russian music wasn't at all helpful in language learning until I was already an advanced speaker and could recognize when words were being pronounced with artistic flair, word play, archaic word usage, etc.

For me, however, music's contribution was being fun. I think everybody will agree that anything which helps to maintain your passion, and to "keep at it", is a great thing.

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You may or may not have noticed me whine over there not being any pirateable sixth edition RtK1 on the nets on TS, but anyway one buy and like a week later the book has finally arrived at my doorstep. I've read through the introduction so far and will probably check through the 15 introductory kanji. Main studying will be set to 22.00 after medicine administration, though. This is the one habit I have to do every day, and I should get it down better anyway.

I look forward to my blog post on the third day, as I have a tendency to write long and rambly...

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I look forward to my blog post on the third day, as I have a tendency to write long and rambly...

I'll be out of town, so I probably wont be there to cheer you on at the get-go, but I'll be there soon enough! Good luck!

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Hi! I recently ordered the 6th edition book from amazon, which should arrive sometime next week.

I kinda have a history trying to learn japanese.(my native language is french btw) I first got interested back in high school, when I mostly trained by trying to translate text from emulated games as I was going.(I got pretty far in a One Piece GBC rpg which used only kana.) Back then I only used a small french/japanese pocket book mostly made for travel, and a pirated version of NJStar. I stopped when I got in college and tried to shy away from my geeky past as I integrated a new group of friends. I started again sometime last year, first learning hiragana and katakana using Slime Forest and then trying to practice with Kodansha's Kanji Learner's Dictionary and Furigana Japanese-English Dictionary while playing some import PSP/DS/GBA games I own. I got a pretty good grasp on both hiragana and katakana, and I learned a few kanji as well, but at some point got distracted and haven't trained much since. I still barely underrstand anything of spoken japanese though, mostly what comes back often such as various salutations, "shouganai" and swearing.

I'm hoping to get back into it shortly after receiving the book. It shouldn't be too hard making a little time for it, after realising how much time I waste on the internet everyday. I'm not sure yet if I'll make a blog, but I'll think about it.

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I received the book much earlier than expected, it only took 2 or 3 days with super saver shipping. fastest shipping I've ever had. o_O

I've already finished reading the introduction, so I'll try to set up Anki tomorrow. Setting a schedule where I study at the same time everyday might be difficult since I have an unstable work schedule, but I'll try to be as stable as possible. I actualy had a lot of fun studying hiragana and katakana with Slime Forest, so hopefully this will help motivate me for this. :)

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Good to have you on board! smile.gif

Something miscallaneous but potentially useful: if you notice that Anki is skipping a few kanji from the list, this might be due to their Due order being wrong. I'm a faggot so I'll not make this detailed, but I finally fixed it by browsing the deck, Sorting it (visually) by Heisig number, then Repositioning the bad elements to their proper Due date. To find those Kanji, there is a surprisingly simple method: for these kanji alone, it seems, there's an an On-yomi field. To get everything with a non-blank field... try

deck:current -"On-yomi":

The key to this is that it minuses everything with an empty On-yomi field. The moar you know.

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Good to have you on board! smile.gif

Something miscallaneous but potentially useful: if you notice that Anki is skipping a few kanji from the list, this might be due to their Due order being wrong. I'm a faggot so I'll not make this detailed, but I finally fixed it by browsing the deck, Sorting it (visually) by Heisig number, then Repositioning the bad elements to their proper Due date. To find those Kanji, there is a surprisingly simple method: for these kanji alone, it seems, there's an an On-yomi field. To get everything with a non-blank field... try

deck:current -"On-yomi":

The key to this is that it minuses everything with an empty On-yomi field. The moar you know.

This would have been nice to know before I started but oh well... How exactly do I Reposition the cards?

(I know where to find the Repositioning option but I don't want to try anything that might mess up the deck)

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By kanji to keyword do you mean the romaji readings and the english meanings at the same time?

*shrug*

You're going to need both eventually. I was actually just looking for the romaji readings to be honest. The english meanings the game uses ( as well as most other things) are different from heisig's anyway.

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