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Learn Japanese Together: Super Challenge 2013


Tay

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Thanks for the comments.

I've no doubt that Chinese will be invaluable in learning the language itself, but I was wondering if I should try a different method than the one in J. Heisigs book, since his does not teach the pronunciations with the way it's written.

...

Those are the chinese pronunciations of the first fifteen words in his book, but I'm sure the Japanese ones are completely different. I was worried it'd make it harder for me to learn pronunciations later on if I learned it the way Heisig presents it, which is all the writing first, and then learn the reading later. (This is ignoring the fact that the meanings of the words are slightly different and I may confuse myself if there isn't a clear way to differentiate between the Chinese and Japanese styles)

I guess I should have explained this earlier. Kanji are split into two different readings. the On'Yomi, or the chinese, and the Kun'Yomi, or the Japanese

On'Yomi is only used in compounds, so 学校 would be read as がっこう and not まなこう

Kun'Yomi is the Japanese reading for kanji, but only as standalone, so split up, 学校 would be 学 - まな(ぶ), and 校 - こう.

Kun'Yomi is also used for Japanese names actually you do whatever you want with names.

This is, by the way a very basic explanation, as it's late, I'm tired, and there are also other reading styles that I cant remember off the top of my head.

As for learning, just find out what suites you the best, それぞれの道だぜ

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I guess I should have explained this earlier. Kanji are split into two different readings. the On'Yomi, or the chinese, and the Kun'Yomi, or the Japanese

On'Yomi is only used in compounds, so 学校 would be read as がっこう and not まなこう

Kun'Yomi is the Japanese reading for kanji, but only as standalone, so split up, 学校 would be 学 - まな(ぶ), and 校 - こう.

Kun'Yomi is also used for Japanese names actually you do whatever you want with names.

This is, by the way a very basic explanation, as it's late, I'm tired, and there are also other reading styles that I cant remember off the top of my head.

As for learning, just find out what suites you the best, それぞれの道だぜ

OK, I want to correct 1 thing from the get-go: Onyomi vs Kunyomi has got nothing to do with compounds or not.

When kanji are used to write a native Japanese word, that's kunyomi. When kanji are used to write a borrowed Chinese word, that's onyomi.

The onyomi for 学 is "gaku" and the onyomi for 校 is "kou". These are the sounds that Japan thinks are the Chinese pronunciations of those symbols--at least, hundreds of years ago they were. But what you actually hear is "gakkou" (Japanese sound rules).

The kunyomi for 学 is まな(ぶ) manabu, the reason the last part is in paraentheses in the dictionary is because, the way it actually works is that the kanji is used for the verb stem, and the hiragana is used for the inflected part. Like this: 学ぶ. まなぶ is a Japanese verb meaning "learn", so they write it with the character 学.

But, there are compounds that use kunyomi, too, believe me.

And there are single kanji that use onyomi. Like, 方 could be the word "hou" (onyomi) or it COULD be the word "kata" (kunyomi). And "hou" is a word by itself.

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Thanks for the explanations, they really help even if I don't completely understand yet.

In chinese these words would've been pronounced

学校 - xue xiao (School)

方 - fang (direction, method)

which is nowhere near the japanese pronunciations. It looks like the meanings are similar though, which makes me happy.

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Well the underlying point is, and I'm not sure if Chinese operates this way, in Japanese, kanji is context-driven. They re-use the same kanji character with multiple pronunciations. It's the neighboring symbols that let you know which pronunciation is in use for that kanji at that point in the sentence.

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OK, I want to correct 1 thing from the get-go: Onyomi vs Kunyomi has got nothing to do with compounds or not.

When kanji are used to write a native Japanese word, that's kunyomi. When kanji are used to write a borrowed Chinese word, that's onyomi.

The onyomi for 学 is "gaku" and the onyomi for 校 is "kou". These are the sounds that Japan thinks are the Chinese pronunciations of those symbols--at least, hundreds of years ago they were. But what you actually hear is "gakkou" (Japanese sound rules).

The kunyomi for 学 is まな(ぶ) manabu, the reason the last part is in paraentheses in the dictionary is because, the way it actually works is that the kanji is used for the verb stem, and the hiragana is used for the inflected part. Like this: 学ぶ. まなぶ is a Japanese verb meaning "learn", so they write it with the character 学.

But, there are compounds that use kunyomi, too, believe me.

And there are single kanji that use onyomi. Like, 方 could be the word "hou" (onyomi) or it COULD be the word "kata" (kunyomi). And "hou" is a word by itself.

Yes, I know, There are readings that also use both. But it's a general rule that Compound = On'Yomi, and standalone = Kun'Yomi

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I know that I'm a little late on signing up, but I would also like to begin a challenge here. With the new semester at school, I really wanted to fall into a comfortable pace before adding additional studies. I think that I am ready now. I've just placed an order in for the resource book and plan to begin as soon as it arrives (Most likely 2/19/13).

I do not have a background in Japanese or Chinese languages, but I have attempted self-studies in the past. Sadly, they have went into the direction of dead ends due to time constraints and loss of motivation and energy. This guide and method of studying seems very effective, and everyone has so much input on this thread. I'd like to join in on the activity and I'm eager to begin studying again.

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after analyzing what I actually want to do with japanese in the short term/long term, I should say I'm going to be learning japanese, but not in the same order as you guys.

as I took japanese in high school for 3.5 years and retook japanese 1 for a quarter in my local community college...

well I know the basics of what they taught me, so I'll be following this a bit differently

it might sound weird to say that, even though my japanese classes at school didn't put much emphasis on kanji, but well, given that my aim is to quickly get my reading to the right place, then listening, then writing, then speaking... my priorities are a bit different, so the process is quite different

I should note, what you guys are starting with for kanji, is basically summed up as "see english, recall the kanji" whereas for translating scripts, I need to do the opposite (see kanji, recall english equiv.), which actually Aaeru's article on learning japanese focuses on, but that's only for reading, whereas I'm trying to go for proficiency in all 4 aspects of japanese

the way I'm doing it (lol in my personal notes)

1. Hirgana [see kana, recall romaji/pronunciation]

2. Katakana [see kana, recall romaji/pronunciation]

[actually it's really bad to remember the romaji, so I'm not really going to practice doing it like "see romaji, recall kana" as that's stupid.

3. Kanji [see kanji, recall english] [mainly joyo kanji - basically RtK1+3 anki deck]

- after, continue to review

4. Grammar [see japanese, recall english equiv] (JLPT4-5)

5. Vocab [see japanese+kanji, convert to english] (JLPT4-5)

6. Kanji [see kanji, recall english] [reading] [check if I really know them, recognition only/reading only wise, as it should've been done in #3] (JLPT4-5)

NOTE: from here, after I finish the JLPT4-5 learning vocab/grammar, go onto #7+, but also do #4-6 for JLPT2-3, then move to JLPT1, (after that: pick a particular area of study (say, computers), and then learn all the vocab+kanji for that area) (ok computers bad example cause everything is in katakana really)... also if I bump into new kanji, put it in [it's not to take the JLPT's, it's to use JLPT as a way to gauge my progress)

7. Vocab [see english, convert to japanese(without kanji!)] [writing/speaking]

NOTE: @Grammar: after looking through all the JLPT stuff, use the other resources like Tae Kim's grammar resource especially http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar

8. Kanji [see english, recall kanji] [writing/typing]

9. Kanji [see kanji, recall hiragana] [speaking] - as there are multiple readings (on/kun) so saving this for last

10. Grammar [see english, convert into jp] [this is more like review, since I should reverse this easily]

11. Kanji [see english, recall kanji] [writing]

NOTE: and from here, need to review JLPT5 -> 4 -> 3.. so I can actually take the JLPT maybe, which is a really roundabout way, but I have no way to practice speaking, and don't want to focus on writing until later lol

my #8 is what you guys should be doing right now

also my listening skills are better cause during the time I took japanese I did fansubbing, so I basically JUST focused on listening, so skits/speeches were hard, and etc TT, so now trying to raise all my skills, but need to work on reading first as that's important to one of the possible things I can do for... well. getting a job x.x'')

I'll probably make my own topic about it anyways however, but my main entries if I want to write about it would be put on my own personal blog.. (or maybe some sort of teaser on here with most of the info probably, and then put the full entry on my personal blog with more text...) (actually I have no clue if I'd even post about it anyhow :X)

well good luck to everyone on their learning japanese... journey :D/>

(err what I ment was I can actually translate, but I'd be only focusing on voice, and sometimes it's faulty because japanese speak too fast for me at times... like certain anime I tried to translate -_-, others were ok ish/etc)

(but I'd prefer not to search every single freaking kanji out there via radicals every time I bump into one)

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after analyzing what I actually want to do with japanese in the short term/long term, I should say I'm going to be learning japanese, but not in the same order as you guys.

as I took japanese in high school for 3.5 years and retook japanese 1 for a quarter in my local community college...

well I know the basics of what they taught me, so I'll be following this a bit differently

it might sound weird to say that, even though my japanese classes at school didn't put much emphasis on kanji, but well, given that my aim is to quickly get my reading to the right place, then listening, then writing, then speaking... my priorities are a bit different, so the process is quite different

I should note, what you guys are starting with for kanji, is basically summed up as "see english, recall the kanji" whereas for translating scripts, I need to do the opposite (see kanji, recall english equiv.), which actually Aaeru's article on learning japanese focuses on, but that's only for reading, whereas I'm trying to go for proficiency in all 4 aspects of japanese

the way I'm doing it (lol in my personal notes)

my #8 is what you guys should be doing right now

also my listening skills are better cause during the time I took japanese I did fansubbing, so I basically JUST focused on listening, so skits/speeches were hard, and etc TT, so now trying to raise all my skills, but need to work on reading first as that's important to one of the possible things I can do for... well. getting a job x.x'')

I'll probably make my own topic about it anyways however, but my main entries if I want to write about it would be put on my own personal blog.. (or maybe some sort of teaser on here with most of the info probably, and then put the full entry on my personal blog with more text...) (actually I have no clue if I'd even post about it anyhow :X)

well good luck to everyone on their learning japanese... journey :D/>/>

(err what I ment was I can actually translate, but I'd be only focusing on voice, and sometimes it's faulty because japanese speak too fast for me at times... like certain anime I tried to translate -_-/>, others were ok ish/etc)

(but I'd prefer not to search every single freaking kanji out there via radicals every time I bump into one)

Most of us who have been trying to learn Japanese have reached the same conclusions you have. If you want to be able to apply the usage, you need to learn the alphabets and grammar asap. However, you also need to start kanji ASAP so you can begin building them up in long-term memory. I think that was the idea embodied in this approach. The sooner you start Kanji, the sooner you can start building a repertoire of words you can recognize. With that said, I would recommend starting the kana/grammar soon as well. Definitely before going through all 2200~ kanji words in the RTK thing.

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Most of us who have been trying to learn Japanese have reached the same conclusions you have. If you want to be able to apply the usage, you need to learn the alphabets and grammar asap. However, you also need to start kanji ASAP so you can begin building them up in long-term memory. I think that was the idea embodied in this approach. The sooner you start Kanji, the sooner you can start building a repertoire of words you can recognize. With that said, I would recommend starting the kana/grammar soon as well. Definitely before going through all 2200~ kanji words in the RTK thing.

Yeah, that's why I put the kanji right after the kana

I just put kana put here because I don't want to lose my knowledge of the kana, so basically the hiragana/katakana is to just breeze through it to make sure I actually remember everything and jump straight into the kanji

but the position this learning challenge does however is "see english, recall kanji" which is different than "recall kanji, see english" that I'm aiming for (see english, recall kanji would more help with writing kanji, or at least translating english to japanese than translating an already japanese piece to english which I'd need to do for like, translation

grammar wise I think I'm ok, it's just the conjugation part of grammar makes my head hurt usually lol. (as I've said in this topic before) (like the 3 categories of verbs that have specific different ways to change it from dictionary form to whatever)

at least for now until I actually get to the grammar part of my plan :D/>

at least that's my thoughts of this ~.~

mainly just posting it here cause.. hm... why not :o

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I hope you guys do!

I'm in college, too (applying to medical school right now, actually, so almost done with undergrad), and work. Then there's things like volunteering, family, and my awesome wife. Then there's this beautiful invention called Fuwanovel. And then there's Ryoji's walkthrough section which makes me want to play so many games. And then there's Ryoji's Lucky Star anime recommendation. And then there's Persona 4 Golden. And then there's...

Goodness. Life.

Anyway, somehow I manage to get in 50/day on my good days. It takes a solid hour of studying the new kanji, with review sessions sprinkled in throughout the day. I try and review any time I'm in "empty time" (on the bus, in line, eating, etc.), and that usually gets me through by dinner.

In any case, I hope to build the program as I go through it, and I'd love for you to join us and contribute your great ideas : )

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I decided to try out Heisig's method today and damn, that was satisfying. I've never been very good with Kanji, and I think this'll really help me. I'm excited.

Yay! Awesome.

It's super good for your brain. You'll build a lot of mental muscles by doing it (plus: Japanese!).

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Anyway, somehow I manage to get in 50/day on my good days. It takes a solid hour of studying the new kanji, with review sessions sprinkled in throughout the day. I try and review any time I'm in "empty time" (on the bus, in line, eating, etc.), and that usually gets me through by dinner.

I guess 50 a day is just too much for me. Of course Ive been out of school longer then most of you have been alive so maybe my brain just doesn't like 50 a day lol.

I probably study and review more then you guys too. Being older, and having PTSD from my time in the Marines, I guess my memory isnt what it used to be.

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As someone who actually observes and helps Ryoji as he takes this journey of Learning the Japanese language, I have to say that this has really been a great motivator for him.

This is a wonderful way to learn Japanese. Hell, even I'm picking up some here and there as I help him review.

Kudos to Tay and everyone who is on this adventure, I think its wonderful!!

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I forgot to say how much this has been motivating me lately. I've never been so productive in... years, probably. haha

Not just with learning Japanese, that is, but with pretty much everything in my life.

Awesome! That's what this is all about : ). Celebrating with each other is awesome and motivates me, too -- like this post (I'm pretty much the last person on the site to get to it. Sorry again, Ryoji!): after reading that and responding, I'm so psyched up for tomorrow's Kanji!

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*Late reply*

Yeah, it really gets me at least excited everyday to learn new kanji. Also this is a great exercise for practicing your imagination. After all, we're talking about imaginative memory here, haha.

Even so, I decided that 50 kanji a day was a bit too much for me... Too much stuff to remember and whatnot, and it takes up a good chunk of my time; so I decided to go with 30. Makes me feel kinda down, but oh well!

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*Late reply*

Yeah, it really gets me at least excited everyday to learn new kanji. Also this is a great exercise for practicing your imagination. After all, we're talking about imaginative memory here, haha.

Even so, I decided that 50 kanji a day was a bit too much for me... Too much stuff to remember and whatnot, and it takes up a good chunk of my time; so I decided to go with 30. Makes me feel kinda down, but oh well!

Hey, hey -- 30 is still impressive. Once you learn them, it really won't matter how many you did a day. What'll matter is that they're in your head : )

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I know it's too late, but I want sign up now! A challenge, no, it's a super challenge! So cool, it make me interest in! How i can join this challenge?

A part of my story, i live in vietnam, a country near china(South), my country used to use chinese. in our country use a too much vocabulary from chinese to many people can mistake that some word are from vietnam or chine. but in 19xx, we used alphabet because we find the easier way to read/write. I start interest in chinese-word since i know how to write/read. and when i found the great contry with culture, technology,... (japan) i want learn that contry's language. when i'm 10 year old, i want learnning japanese in my new junior high school, but my mom decline it... when i 13 year old, i start to learn japanese at a center, but a month later, she want me quit... that make me bore... i was stop try to learn japanese since that time. but now, i'm 15(16?) year old, i'm a high school student, i can chose my way. and i chose i will try to learn japanese again, with my hobby, my dream,... after read this...

p/s: sorry for my bad english...

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Well I don't think there's a time limit on it. I think you just announce your intent to start, and then follow the directions in the 1st couple of posts on the 1st page. And, you are supposed to start a thread where you post your progress reports. After that, it's a matter of rigorous study.

Or, even if you decide not to do the Super Challenge 2013, you can still learn Japanese the easy way, like I did. It'll just take longer, I guess.

When you say you studied Chinese words, does that mean you already know all the Chinese characters?

Have you learned any Japanese words or phrases from anime?

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