Under the Dog Kickstarter

[Homaru]

Well i looking through kickstarters and i saw this one and i was very much intrigued. The animation looks quite good and the story really pulled me in. What do you guys think of it? Just a little curious.

 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1300298569/under-the-dog

[Kimanor]

An anime on kickstarter? Never seen that before...

[Down]

An anime on kickstarter? Never seen that before...

It has happened, most notably with Little Witch Academia 2.

 

 

As for this one, well the story reeks of banality (seriously guys stop it with the high-schooler protag), but from the names in the staff and the key visual I'm pretty sure the animation and the art will kick ass. It's gonna be something you don't watch for the story but for the action and the awesomeness, probably - which is a good thing for a pilot episode. 

 

But 500 000$ is a HUGE goal on kickstarter. It's indeed about the amount a good quality OAV takes to make (it's about the budget of the Anime Mirai shorts), but I'm not sure if they have enough namedropping to ensure they'll make it.

 

Anyway it looks interesting, as it's not just yet another vast pre-order operation but a real project.

[Funyarinpa]

 

 

As for this one, well the story reeks of banality (seriously guys stop it with the high-schooler protag), but from the names in the staff and the key visual I'm pretty sure the animation and the art will kick ass. It's gonna be something you don't watch for the story but for the action and the awesomeness, probably - which is a good thing for a pilot episode. 

 

But 500 000$ is a HUGE goal on kickstarter.

 

It seems that the story writer has worked on 999's story, so I would say that the story does have a lot of potential. (I know he is not the main writer.)

 Also,, its goal is $580K... it sure is aiming for the skies.

[Tatsujin]

I know this is late in the game, I don't fucking feel like putting a poster, AniDB, official site or any of that shit because of this. The trailer video is freaking amazing - jaw dropping action, amazing amazing scenes ... but that statement ...

 

I donated 100 USD. Right now, it's not that I'm considering to pull my money back - I'm waiting for them to retract that bullshit post about Crunchyroll being a professional ... please fucking explain to me in words

WHAT PROFESSIONALISM DO THEY OFFER WHEN THEY DO NOT DO KARAOKE, THEY BUTCHER THE SUBTITLES AND LOCALIZE IT WITHOUT LITERAL TRANSLATION? NO NOTES

.. ohh fuck I'm so steamed up :/ ... one of the best OVAs and now they sunk deep into a shit-hole. Fansubs will always be better than our local shitty anime companies ... always.

 

My day was up and down, but that just destroyed it. I'm ... urghh .............................

 

Here's the kickstart for now - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1300298569/under-the-dog

 

;/ ... I'm so very upset right now ... so upset.

[Down]

Merged with existing topic.

 

Tbh, you just described exactly what non-professional subtitles are:

 

 

WHAT PROFESSIONALISM DO THEY OFFER WHEN THEY DO NOT DO KARAOKE, THEY BUTCHER THE SUBTITLES AND LOCALIZE IT WITHOUT LITERAL TRANSLATION? NO NOTES

Karaoke plastered all over the op/ed and literal translation are definitely not professional. I don't know what you mean by butcher the subtitles though. Crunchyroll might not offer god-tier translations but they have skilled people. And I don't know any fansub groups that offers god-tier translations anyway.

 

Besides a project like this associating itself with fansub groups was definitely strange.

[Chewy]

I donated 100 USD. Right now, it's not that I'm considering to pull my money back - I'm waiting for them to retract that bullshit post about Crunchyroll being a professional ... please fucking explain to me in words

WHAT PROFESSIONALISM DO THEY OFFER WHEN THEY DO NOT DO KARAOKE, THEY BUTCHER THE SUBTITLES AND LOCALIZE IT WITHOUT LITERAL TRANSLATION? NO NOTES

.. ohh fuck I'm so steamed up :/ ... one of the best OVAs and now they sunk deep into a shit-hole. Fansubs will always be better than our local shitty anime companies ... always.

Well, most fan subs work around the same level as Crunchyroll so I dont see too much of a problem here. Also some fansubs do similar things and localise it, its just it doesnt seem as obvious. If they leave a lot in literal we may not understand some parts or it doesnt sound like correct English so at the end of the day, they are about the same.

 

Edit: Didnt read the post above. My bad for repeating a point.

[Down]

Fansub and CR discussion aside, those guys really fucked up their communications in this kickstarter. There was the blunder comment about the LWA kickstarter, then they alienated half their fanbase by talking about fansub, then their other half by talking about Crunchyroll... Damn, the project does look good, but it's really too bad they handled this that way...

[Chewy]

Fansub and CR discussion aside, those guys really fucked up their communications in this kickstarter. There was the blunder comment about the LWA kickstarter, then they alienated half their fanbase by talking about fansub, then their other half by talking about Crunchyroll... Damn, the project does look good, but it's really too bad they handled this that way...

How exactly did these ones handle it badly in your opinion? I mean its my first time seeing an anime kickstarter so I wasnt too sure of it.

[Talsek]

Oh god.9 more days and not even close to goal.

 

 

Rip.

[Chewy]

Oh god.9 more days and not even close to goal.

 

 

Rip.

What do they do with the money if they dont get enough? Give it back? Not that I have any invested in this.

[Tatsujin]

Merged with existing topic.

 

Tbh, you just described exactly what non-professional subtitles are:

 

Karaoke plastered all over the op/ed and literal translation are definitely not professional. I don't know what you mean by butcher the subtitles though. Crunchyroll might not offer god-tier translations but they have skilled people. And I don't know any fansub groups that offers god-tier translations anyway.

 

Besides a project like this associating itself with fansub groups was definitely strange.

CrunchyRoll doesn't have skilled people. Have you compared their silly translations to the edited version of their releases or translations that were done from scratch? .... They're not professional at all. Only on 'paper'. Fansubs do it better on all grounds. You can call whatever translation that you want but the mere fact that localizing and butchering the actual script into something totally different is .. what do you call that again? If you prefer that shit then by all means stick to CrunchyRoll.

 

Underwater, Unlimited Translation Works, FFF, Coalgirls modified version (usually coalgirl herself does well), ... hmm .. that's all I can think of. They do a pretty good job on translating. Doki does an alright job - if anything, they do it better than Commie.

 

--

 

I want to get the BD so I pledged 100 USD. Only 5 days left, less than 200K to go ... hmm ... not sure if they're going to make it. :/

[aznxa21]

What do you guys think of it? I think it looks like it can be pretty good. I would love to donate some money but currently I'm a broke poor High School student. I hope it makes it's goal.

For those of you that don't know Under the Dog is a Kickstarter anime.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1300298569/under-the-dog

Apologies if someone already made a topic for this.

[Darklord Rooke]

CrunchyRoll doesn't have skilled people. Have you compared their silly translations to the edited version of their releases or translations that were done from scratch? .... They're not professional at all. Only on 'paper'. Fansubs do it better on all grounds. You can call whatever translation that you want but the mere fact that localizing and butchering the actual script into something totally different is .. what do you call that again? If you prefer that shit then by all means stick to CrunchyRoll.

 

All translations localise to some degree, if you think otherwise then you're in error.

 

And no, most fansubs do it worse than official companies. This gets disguised a bit because multiple fansubbers do the same project. And yes I do know that a few official localisations butcher the content, just like I know some fansubs are borderline unreadable, while still providing errors. 

 

And Doki's pretty bad ( http://www.crymore.net/2014/07/19/fansub-review-doki-akame-ga-kill-episode-02/ )

[InvertMouse]

What do they do with the money if they dont get enough? Give it back? Not that I have any invested in this.

 

With Kickstarter, I think if you fail to reach your goal, all the moneys are returned to contributors through the system~

[Tatsujin]

All translations localise to some degree, if you think otherwise then you're in error.

 

And no, most fansubs do it worse than official companies. This gets disguised a bit because multiple fansubbers do the same project. And yes I do know that a few official localisations butcher the content, just like I know some fansubs are borderline unreadable, while still providing errors. 

 

And Doki's pretty bad ( http://www.crymore.net/2014/07/19/fansub-review-doki-akame-ga-kill-episode-02/ )

Fan subtitles were actually really good back around 2007 to about 2010. Then afterwards things died off and Simulcast started. Funimation does it better than Crunchyroll in a lot of areas. Better grammar, better translation and so on. Though the subtitles done by fans on general basis, from the ones I mentioned above and few more fansubs I haven't listed do it better than Funimation all together. Doki's not the best as I stated in my previous post, even with few grammar errors that they usually fix in their BD releases or if others take their subs and modify it.

 

There is no 'accurate' translation because translating something is 'the translation of the thoughts of the person who is translating' and so it abandons the 100% accurate meaning of the contents. There is, however, literal translation of the content rather than localizing things - when you localize something then this is called butchering shit around because the translator or/and the producer felt like making it more 'local' to their area rather than trying to keep the actual meaning of the contents. I get that they want to 'appeal the Western fans' but how much of us actually purchase their goods? How many of us know and don't know about what they try to hide so much? (hint: fansubs) Are you cool with "brother" or "onii-chan"? Maybe you're okay with 'brother' but how about when things get a bit deeper and the contents expose Japanese culture in variety of ways? Would you want something that gives a more local impression to where you live or would you like the actual meaning of the contents? Simply speaking, you want it butchered or you want it original?

 

If you think those legal sites like Funimation and Crunchyroll are better than fansubs, then power to you and your choices.

 

Liberal versus Literal.

 

Grammar can always be fixed in BD releases by fansubs. I'll still pick Doki over the trashy legal translations if no other superior fansub release is out. Commie is my least choice to pick, as always.

 

I only have one regret ... purchasing Spice & Wolf BD/DVD complete series from Funimation at 30 USD and realizing that they changed so much of it, even the BD menu screens are not original ... the box is not, it's cheap. I went ahead and spent 240 USD to get me the original product from Japan. The difference is pretty huge. Not that I want to change topics at all since we are talking about fan subtitles and what not but I don't agree with the legal companies here in the West. I prefer them original. Cash is not an issue to me.

 

The one thing I do purchase from Western companies are manga (Yen Press, Kodansha Comics, Seven Seas) and light novel (Yen Press). There are also the art books that Udon Entertainment but I've gotten like 4 so far. I won't be getting anymore from them.

 

I spent enough time on this. -gets back to Hoshizora-

[Darklord Rooke]

There is, however, literal translation of the content rather than localizing things - when you localize something then this is called butchering shit around because the translator or/and the producer felt like making it more 'local' to their area rather than trying to keep the actual meaning of the contents. I get that they want to 'appeal the Western fans' but how much of us actually purchase their goods? How many of us know and don't know about what they try to hide so much? (hint: fansubs) Are you cool with "brother" or "onii-chan"? Maybe you're okay with 'brother' but how about when things get a bit deeper and the contents expose Japanese culture in variety of ways? Would you want something that gives a more local impression to where you live or would you like the actual meaning of the contents? Simply speaking, you want it butchered or you want it original?

 

A lot of the time when people talk about 'translating' vs 'localising' they only talk about keeping the meaning of words and content. People forget that a straight up translation means not helping to make things easier to read in english at all. This means keeping the original structure of the sentence, keeping things almost unreadable. There was one Russian fellow who took this to extremes and stated any changes to the script at all during the translation process was unacceptable and the translators should be put in stocks. Needless to say that his translated russian poetry was basically unreadable. Localising content means changing the sentence structure to make things easier to read in english.

 

Let's take it one step further, when you translate using American spelling over British, you are localising content to the American audience. When you use American concepts over British (sneakers instead of joggers etc) you are localising content to the American audience.

 

Every anime fan-sub translator will localise to some extent. People usually get annoyed when things are over-localised, but that threshold differs from person to person.

 

Localisation gets a bad name, but it's a process which MUST be undergone when translating. To what extent depends on your personal philosophy.

 

Grammar can always be fixed in BD releases by fansubs. 

 

But style can't. When you're reading translated releases you are reading the translators style of writing. Sure, there are pieces of literature which tries to keep the authors original style, but if they want to keep ALL of the original author's style it means it will be a tough read in english. So this technique of translating is usually kept to literature circles.

 

This is why when you read a translated story it is sometimes said that you are reading a work produced by 2 authors, the original author and the translator. And when the translator writes at a high-school level, that is something which is a)unappealing and b)can't be fixed. 

[Tatsujin]

A lot of the time when people talk about 'translating' vs 'localising' they only talk about keeping the meaning of words and content. People forget that a straight up translation means not helping to make things easier to read in english at all. This means keeping the original structure of the sentence, keeping things almost unreadable. There was one Russian fellow who took this to extremes and stated any changes to the script at all during the translation process was unacceptable and the translators should be put in stocks. Needless to say that his translated russian poetry was basically unreadable. Localising content means changing the sentence structure to make things easier to read in english.

 

Let's take it one step further, when you translate using American spelling over British, you are localising content to the American audience. When you use American concepts over British (sneakers instead of joggers etc) you are localising content to the American audience.

 

Every anime fan-sub translator will localise to some extent. People usually get annoyed when things are over-localised, but that threshold differs from person to person.

 

Localisation gets a bad name, but it's a process which MUST be undergone when translating. To what extent depends on your personal philosophy.

You're twisting the words around. Let me use the dictionary:

 

Translation - the rendering of something into another language or into one's own from another language.

Localize - to make local; fix in, or assign or restrict to, a particular place, locality, etc.

Literal - following the words of the original very closely and exactly.

 

Source - Dictionary.com

 

When you translate something to the audience, that's the action you are taking in order to reproduce the original language into the language that you are targeting. So then it comes down to keeping things local to your community or keeping things original to your community. If you want to abandon the original script itself to something that makes sense to your local community then you are localizing the script. As I stated above, brother / onii-chan is an example. Otherwise, if you want to keep it original then you'd keep the honorifics, you'd keep the original content and so on and forth.

 

^ This is how the anime community works.

 

 

But style can't. When you're reading translated releases you are reading the translators style of writing. Sure, there are pieces of literature which tries to keep the authors original style, but if they want to keep ALL of the original author's style it means it will be a tough read in english. So this technique of translating is usually kept to literature circles.

 

This is why when you read a translated story it is sometimes said that you are reading a work produced by 2 authors, the original author and the translator. And when the translator writes at a high-school level, that is something which is a)unappealing and b)can't be fixed. 

This is true. No need to emphasize on this anymore. Style of Writing is done by a human being and everyone falls under this rule - fansubs and legal anime companies. Though correcting grammars is different.

 

We go back to translating something - anything. It's going to kill the original content regardless. Because, for example, you bring in three translators with each in a separate room. You give them a paragraph to translate. They all translate the paragraph and present it to you. It will all be similar but it will be different from translator to translator. The process was done differently but the goal was ultimately achieved. The act of 'translating', basically, was done, regardless of it being localized or literal. Just the 'style of translation' or 'writing' was done differently in the mentioned example.

[Down]

 

When you translate something to the audience, that's the action you are taking in order to reproduce the original language into the language that you are targeting. So then it comes down to keeping things local to your community or keeping things original to your community. If you want to abandon the original script itself to something that makes sense to your local community then you are localizing the script. As I stated above, brother / onii-chan is an example. Otherwise, if you want to keep it original then you'd keep the honorifics, you'd keep the original content and so on and forth.

Except translation implies fully translating the text, not stopping halfway. "Onii-chan" isn't an english word. Honorifics aren't part of the english language. The text you produce is supposed to be correct english. Rendering the various specificity of a language into another is the reason why translating is so hard, but it's part of the translation, especially considering we're dealing with two completely different languages here. The base sentence structure isn't even the same, one is SVO and the other is SOV. If literally translating means the result doesn't even make sense, it's useless.

Localizing would be more like replacing an entire joke altogether because it makes a reference to japanese culture or plays with the japanese language.

 

The main reason why some of us tend to prefer very literal translation is simply because we're used to the quirks of fan translation and already have basic understanding of japanese.

[Tatsujin]

The main reason why some of us tend to prefer very literal translation is simply because we're used to the quirks of fan translation and already have basic understanding of japanese.

^ This is true. I agree with what Down said.

[Chewy]

Except translation implies fully translating the text, not stopping halfway. "Onii-chan" isn't an english word. Honorifics aren't part of the english language. The text you produce is supposed to be correct english. Rendering the various specificity of a language into another is the reason why translating is so hard, but it's part of the translation, especially considering we're dealing with two completely different languages here. The base sentence structure isn't even the same, one is SVO and the other is SOV. If literally translating means the result doesn't even make sense, it's useless.

Localizing would be more like replacing an entire joke altogether because it makes a reference to japanese culture or plays with the japanese language.

 

The main reason why some of us tend to prefer very literal translation is simply because we're used to the quirks of fan translation and already have basic understanding of japanese.

Yeah, I agree with this. I mean if i was a so called newbie to jap, i would have no idea what onii-chan or nee-sama or even oppai means. Thats where the 'completed' translation can help me if i wanted to know. Sure if i knew or studied some Japanese,that would be cinch but without that knowledge, I would be sitting there and then having to search ever single weird word that comes up in the translation. That would really ruin the mood as well as the experience for me anyway.

[Down]

Relevant to this kickstarter, the producer of Under the Dog did an AMA on Reddit.

Some answers are quite insightful on the bane that the production committees system has been on animation those last years.

[Darklord Rooke]

Incredibly informative interview.

 

I am very careful of doing this since I was raised in Australia despite being Japanese.

 

Top fella. Obviously worth supporting.

[Down]

Well, that explains why he can speak english so well. I was actually surprised.

 

For those who don't want to crawl through all the comments, major points are:

 

*Under the Dog will probably be produced even if the kickstarter doesn't reach its goal. They already have offers for it. They'd prefer to be the most independant as they can though. If the kickstarter goes well, it will serve as bait to get investors to fund a trilogy of movies under THEIR terms and not as a production comity.

 

*The goal of this kickstarter is to try to have an alternative path to production committees. According to what he says, those are not only stifling creativity and diversity (which we pretty much already knew), they also create internal politics and tensions that distract the creators from actually working on their project, as they have to deal with everyone trying to promote his part of the cake while not caring for the whole product (ex: the music company caring only about theme song exposition to sell CDs)

 

*They also try to appeal (obviously) to international fans, as they believe it might be the path that the animation industry will have to take sooner or later if it doesn't want to collapse.

 

*They don't want to compromise and have to put moe characters and mandatory story elements in their project, which they would have to do under normal conditions.

[Chewy]

*The goal of this kickstarter is to try to have an alternative path to production committees. According to what he says, those are not only stifling creativity and diversity (which we pretty much already knew), they also create internal politics and tensions that distract the creators from actually working on their project, as they have to deal with everyone trying to promote his part of the cake while not caring for the whole product (ex: the music company caring only about theme song exposition to sell CDs)

 

*They also try to appeal (obviously) to international fans, as they believe it might be the path that the animation industry will have to take sooner or later if it doesn't want to collapse.

International fans..... What are we again

At the end of the day they just want to be independent because they dont want any restrictions in their work and no prioritisation. Thats basically it, isnt it?